Wheels and tires

1SonicGT

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Ok guys I did a bit of searching but got close to no answers. So my question is: What is everyone running in regards to their wheel and tire choices? I was thinking about picking up some 07-09 Gt500 rims and throwing some falkiens on them for our track days. I went out for the first time on the continentials I have on the car and the back end kept kicking out and I "Dirted" it about 7 times. So whats everybody running?
 

1SonicGT

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Searching in this forum for "wheels" in this sub-forum alone brings up 9 pages of results...but yes GT500 wheels are fine.

And you had SEVEN off's your first time out?! Was the event run by these guys by chance?

http://www.s197forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=63136


Thanks for the response I wasnt searching for wheels didnt think to put it that simple :dunce:


It was my first time out and I was trying to keep up and I can throw as many excuses out there as I can times I went off. And good god that track outing was horrible. It was at the Inde Motorsports track here in AZ. I haven't been back since, cause I was honestly ashamed at how horrible I did.
 

Philostang

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No need to be ashamed of your first outing on a new track. Really.

However, whoever organized that event should be ashamed they didn't do something about your situation after the 1st off, they should be mortified after the 2nd off, and they should be banned from further hosting of events for not doing anything after the 3rd off. That's ENTIRELY on them, not you. You should have had a coach in the car with you and they should have been in control of the situation (i.e. doing their job).

The first thing the coach would have told you is "Don't worry about keeping up." You're out there to learn to enjoy really driving your car, not "go fast." The emphasis is on "learn." No organization with a quality coaching staff would have let this happen. This is a real shame.

Find yourself an organization with a good teaching program (I'm biased towards NASA), or find a good school to attend (I'm also biased towards Bondurant, which is in your neck of the woods). The money you spend with such organizations is the best you'll ever spend to really get the most out of owning your car.

Sorry to hear this was your first experience. Don't let it keep you off track, it's too damn fun!

Best,
-j
 

Sleeper_08

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Ditto on it not being a well organized event.

Around here the good organizers require you to pit if you put two wheel off or four wheels off and if you don't will black flag you.

Going off more than twice in the same day will probably result in you being sent home.

I strongly agree that the best investment you can make to going faster is a qualified instructor.
 

4RCEFED

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I run 255/35zr20 falkens and the hook up is amazing on my Stage 3 Roush.
I have another set of 18" Roush wheels with Goodyear Eagle F1 tires that also hook up great....
The 18" wheels and tires are for sale if you know anyone who is interested
 
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I would suggest a r-compound, I run Toyo r888, 285/30/18, on Enkei rpf1s, 18x10. I find the r-comps to be more consistent, and they definitely take a lot more work to "grease up". I always found my street tires would become overheated, making the car loose after a few laps.
 

ct07gt

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I have Dunlop Direzza z1 star specs and I like them a lot for autocross, but I do not think they would be a good track tire for a mustang. When I have to do a work assignment, like start flagger or running the timing gear I have to make two runs back to back and the tires have noticeably less grip on the second run because they get too hot. Try johnbtires.com for some used race tires, like the R6 or R888. If I were buying track wheels I would probably get enkei's as well, like the PF01.
 

Philostang

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I know there are some differing opinions on this matter, but for a novice driver I would strongly discourage r-comps. They're going to make you feel like a king out there...trouble is, and please don't take this the wrong way, if you went off 7 times in your last session, you're not the king. The same is true of any novice driver. R-comps will hide a plethora of really bad habits and may not give you the real learning opportunities a street tire would.

So consider this: You get R-comps and go out on your next session. Do you hit the dirt? Likely not, they're just crazy grippy. Do you even slide much? Probably not, you just have a blast out there mashing the throttle, going around a corner any which way you want, braking whenever you want. It's awesome!! Yeah, and you drove like a total arse. The r-comps saved you all day long. What did you learn? Did you learn to catch a slide? Did you learn to identify when you're maximizing your tire traction? Did you learn what those tires need to do that? Did you learn threshold braking (or did you just let ABS save you again)? Did you learn any real car control skills?

Look, you can throw r-comps on and go faster and have a total blast - they're really fun tires. But they're also deceiving. In truth, they also require you to use more slip angle, but if you're so new that that concept doesn't make any sense, you have many more valuable things to learn. At least for me, driving has always been about learning (about the car, about dynamics, and about myself). I run r-comps now (Hoosier R6 or BFG R1s), but I'm extremely glad I worked my way up the tire food chain on track (from my first few events on the OEM all-season tires, to max-perf. all-season tires [Yoko Avid S4], to max-perf. summer tires [Toyo R1R], to intro level r-comps [Nitto NT01], and finally to stuff in the 40 tread wear range). I've learned a lot about how to drive these different tires, and I still have a HUGE amount to learn.

So call me biased, but I vote no on the r-comps for now.

Best,
-j
 
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You make a good point, philostang. I guess I took a strange route, I went from oem all seasons (3 track days), I found the car difficult to control, very "tight" at first, then "loose" as the tires overheated.

Then I went straight to r compounds, it was like flipping a lightswitch, I found the car easier to control, more neutral, with loose feeling only at the end of a hard, 20 minute session. On a recent lapping day, I managed to post a lap time within 5/10ths of a second of the solosprint lap record for my class. I feel the like good brakes, the car needs good tires to deliver consistent performance. I find it hard to learn if the dynamics of the car changes from lap to lap.

That said, I agree that r comps can and do mask driving errors, I have a lot of work to do, gotta avoid engaging abs, have to be smoother on the throttle, steering inputs. I constantly feel like I'm driving on the edge, I need to slow it down a notch. Data logging showed that my fastest laps came from braking earlier, braking smoother.

To the op, I think you should have another instruction day with those street tires. if you feel the car is loose all the time, you need to soften your right foot. Get a good teacher, they'll set you right.
 

1SonicGT

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Thanks for the heads up guys. After reading the responses I really did do horrible on my first track outing. Looking at the bondurant school of driving do you think the intro to racing course that is $1375 is really worth that? And on top of that do you believe that I should just go ahead and get the GT500 wheels with some good tires not R1's but I was looking at the falken fk452 since I can pick up a set of 4 255/40/18 for $400?
 

Philostang

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Sonic,

If you shop around you'll find most 1-day courses at top-tier driving schools (that provide you with their car) are in the same price range. I did the 4-day school during some miserably hot early summer month to gain a 20% discount. At any rate, it ain't cheap! I can't speak to the worth of the 1-day school, but the 4-day is really great. My main interest was to condense the learning curve as quickly as possible so that I could then go out and practice core skills for the rest of that summer. For me, it was really important to be precise about what I wanted out of a program like that in order to justify that price. It wasn't just about quality learning (which they have in spades), it was about a specific time-frame and a few other things they have that others don't.

If you are willing to stretch out your learning curve, I'd say go with NASA. Their HPDE tier system works you up from novice to qualifying for a competition license (if that's your cup of tea). Cost is very manageable, and of course part of this is that you are using your own car. If I hadn't done Bondurant first, I would have been very happy to work my way through the NASA ranks in the traditional route. In fact, in some sense I think it's better than any of the larger school programs insofar as you learn at your own pace. If you've only got 4 days to learn a snot-load of skills and techniques, you're pushed on to the next activity/drill regardless of how confident you feel with the previous technique. That's the price you pay with a condensed learning curve. With NASA you don't have that rush to push past something you're not ready for yet.

Last, I think a good summer tire might help. Captain makes good points about consistency. I don't think I pushed hard enough on the OEM and other all-weather tires to really notice a drop off in their performance (they pretty much just always sucked), but this could be a serious hindrance to your learning if you did. So a dedicated summer tire is likely to give you that stable platform Captain was talking about. But I have no experience with Falken tires.

Best,
-j
 

ct07gt

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It looks like tire rack has a pretty good deal on the new Michelin Super Sports in 275/35/18; might be worth looking at those.
 

SoundGuyDave

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I'll second (third? fourth?) the whole idea of getting an instructor in the car with you ASAP. For what you (or ANY relative newbie) needs to learn, any decent tire will do perfectly well, and in fact, something in the 200-280 range would probably be perfect.

A couple of notes on tire behavior, and how R-compounds compare to their extreme-summer bretheren:
1) For what you need to learn (the line, braking technique, steering technique, picking consistent braking, turn-in, apex and track-out points, throttle techniques) the tires really don't matter. The bulk of this can be done on all-seasons, however they will hamper you to an extent once the concepts begin to "click."
2) Tires can be the most communicative part of the car! Listen to them. If you get a thin squeal intermittantly here and there, that lets you know that you're starting to approach the edge of the traction envelope; the tires are starting to wake up. If you get a nice, barking squeal the entire time from turn-in through track out, then you just nailed a perfect corner! You're right at the edge of the envelope. If you hear the tires howling, growling, or otherwise complaining, though, you know you just stepped past the sweet spot! R-compound tires, in comparison, are just silent, until you push them, then they're silent. At the very edge, they will make a tiny little growling noise, and then they go silent again as you spin off the track. Driving R-compound tires is more about feel than it is anything else, but until you can learn to control the car at the limit, they're more likely to hide bad habits than anything else, since there's no sense of impending doom as you start to push the envelope unknowingly.
3) The MOST important thing you can learn to do is to drive smoothly! Smooth on (and off) the brakes and throttle, smooth on the shifts (up AND down), and smooth on the wheel. When you're smooth, you will go faster than if you're throwing the car around. Period. If you're smooth, AND on the right line, you will go faster than you believe you can, and without effort. If you're choppy, though, you will NEVER be as fast is you think you should be...
4) With R-compounds, they either grip or they don't, and so they will hide over-aggressive driving. A good street tire, in comparison, will let you know you're mis-behaving, and if you step over the edge, are pretty easy to recover. Not so much with R-compounds. With street tires offering around 1.0G of grip, going a little past that will result in a bit of sliding around, and will feel unsettled. R-compounds, with around 1.4G of grip, just grab the pavement like velcro until you go too far. If you know how to manage weight transfer, slip angles, and throttle modulation, you can recover from one end breaking free, but if you don't, you're done. R-compounds have a narrow window where they LIKE to be driven, but without understanding what the chassis is communicating through the seat of your pants, it's far, far too easy to blow through that window, or worse, never hit it at all.

My advice: get an instructor in your car (NASA and HOD are both good for this!), and then learn how to drive it. Don't worry about modding the car, running race tires, or anything else, until you really understand what the car is telling you all the way around the track.
 

knownukes

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I'll second (third? fourth?) the whole idea of getting an instructor in the car with you ASAP. For what you (or ANY relative newbie) needs to learn, any decent tire will do perfectly well, and in fact, something in the 200-280 range would probably be perfect.

A couple of notes on tire behavior, and how R-compounds compare to their extreme-summer bretheren:
1) For what you need to learn (the line, braking technique, steering technique, picking consistent braking, turn-in, apex and track-out points, throttle techniques) the tires really don't matter. The bulk of this can be done on all-seasons, however they will hamper you to an extent once the concepts begin to "click."
2) Tires can be the most communicative part of the car! Listen to them. If you get a thin squeal intermittantly here and there, that lets you know that you're starting to approach the edge of the traction envelope; the tires are starting to wake up. If you get a nice, barking squeal the entire time from turn-in through track out, then you just nailed a perfect corner! You're right at the edge of the envelope. If you hear the tires howling, growling, or otherwise complaining, though, you know you just stepped past the sweet spot! R-compound tires, in comparison, are just silent, until you push them, then they're silent. At the very edge, they will make a tiny little growling noise, and then they go silent again as you spin off the track. Driving R-compound tires is more about feel than it is anything else, but until you can learn to control the car at the limit, they're more likely to hide bad habits than anything else, since there's no sense of impending doom as you start to push the envelope unknowingly.
3) The MOST important thing you can learn to do is to drive smoothly! Smooth on (and off) the brakes and throttle, smooth on the shifts (up AND down), and smooth on the wheel. When you're smooth, you will go faster than if you're throwing the car around. Period. If you're smooth, AND on the right line, you will go faster than you believe you can, and without effort. If you're choppy, though, you will NEVER be as fast is you think you should be...
4) With R-compounds, they either grip or they don't, and so they will hide over-aggressive driving. A good street tire, in comparison, will let you know you're mis-behaving, and if you step over the edge, are pretty easy to recover. Not so much with R-compounds. With street tires offering around 1.0G of grip, going a little past that will result in a bit of sliding around, and will feel unsettled. R-compounds, with around 1.4G of grip, just grab the pavement like velcro until you go too far. If you know how to manage weight transfer, slip angles, and throttle modulation, you can recover from one end breaking free, but if you don't, you're done. R-compounds have a narrow window where they LIKE to be driven, but without understanding what the chassis is communicating through the seat of your pants, it's far, far too easy to blow through that window, or worse, never hit it at all.

My advice: get an instructor in your car (NASA and HOD are both good for this!), and then learn how to drive it. Don't worry about modding the car, running race tires, or anything else, until you really understand what the car is telling you all the way around the track.

+1000

I totally agree! I think NASA, HOD are both very good. PCA is good also. The driving schools are good, but I would do multiple days if you choose to do it. Multiple days and/or back to back weekends of HPDEs really help. The concepts are hard to get for some and the shorter time between learning opportunities helps alot. Once you start to get it, it ramps up to a pretty good level quickly and then it start to depend on your actual talent(just like everything, some are just better than others) and your risk tolerance. As you skills increase with instruction and experience, your speed will increase and you will reach a point where you are really cooking and to go faster you have to dig a little deeper into your personal comfort level. All of this should be worked up to on tires that communicate, not bite. R-compounds will bite you as they will make you think you are better than you are and with little warning you will go off the cliff and hopefully there is nothing or nobody there for you to hit. I've said this before on this forum, good instruction and track time are PRICELESS. Get some track time under your belt and then start to do tires, suspension and lastly horsepower. Brakes right off the bat are ok. Being able to stop is never a bad thing, and hi temp brake fluid is easy to do.

SoundGuyDave is 100% right.

BJ
 

Norm Peterson

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So my question is: What is everyone running in regards to their wheel and tire choices? I was thinking about picking up some 07-09 Gt500 rims and throwing some falkiens on them for our track days.
The 18" GT500 wheels are fine for this sort of thing. I'm running those, with GY Asymmetrics in 255/45 for "3-season" street and occasional autocross. Moderately pricy, I guess, and about 200 treadwear if that matters. Stable with good turn-in, but definitely a bit tail-happy when cold (<45°F or so).

I went out for the first time on the continentials I have on the car and the back end kept kicking out and I "Dirted" it about 7 times. So whats everybody running?
I think the very first thing you need to learn is that the skinny pedal under your right foot has more than two useful positions. Use all of them, smoothly. A little practice at autocross might help here (as well as with any 'over-driving' tendencies on corner entry).

It is also entirely possible that your tune is too aggressive about adding throttle, and this is making it a little harder than normal to be 'smooth'.


Norm
 
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