Which car for auto crossing/track days?

[Sky Render]

At this point I am still not ruling out getting another car for autocrossing. As much as I want to make a go at it in the Mustang, I must admit, I am still scared of damaging it. There was a nice C6 Vette at the autocross this weekend who spun out while running the course, and he ended up scarliy close to a light pole! And while I was talking to another competitor, I asked him if he ever saw anyone seriously damage their car at an event. He told me that at the last event, a Mitsubishi EVO took out a separate light pole when he went off course and hit it head on! On top of that, there is a decent sized ditch a little bit off course, and you'd have to be carrying some speed to run off course and end up in it, but another guy told me that it has happened on a couple of occasions.

Are you kidding me? It sounds like the course designers at your club are morons. I've never seen anyone get anywhere near wrecking their car. Courses are supposed to be designed in such a way as to maximize run off room and minimize potential damage!

 

[TGR96]

Whiskey, I notice that you run in STX. They put me in NSTX, I suppose because my car is lowered and my tires and wheels are larger than stock. I wanted to see if you could give me the quick and dirty low down on the STX clas, what's allowed and what's not. If I went back to stock size tires, would I still be in STX, since my car is lowered?

As we all like to do, I want to still be able to mod my car, but I don't want to end up in some class with purpose built race cars trying to compete. My first objective is to have fun, and of course, right now I am just looking to get more acquianted with the sport, but I would like to know a litle bit more of how far I can go with my mods.

Well, after some googling, I was able to find the STX rule book. Looks like for a 2WD, the max tire size I can use is a 265, and max wheel width would be 9". It also looks like basic bolt on are OK, like exhaust, CAI, etc.

How far are you guys going with your mods, if you are running STX?

 

[TGR96]

Are you kidding me? It sounds like the course designers at your club are morons. I've never seen anyone get anywhere near wrecking their car. Courses are supposed to be designed in such a way as to maximize run off room and minimize potential damage!

Yeah, I kinda thought the same thing. That is the biggest attraction autocross offers for me, is the ability to get out there and beat on your DD, without having to worry too much about bending it. For comparison, I am going to try to check out another event this weekend at an alternate location, about 45 minutes from my hometown.

 

[Whiskey11]

Whiskey, I notice that you run in STX. They put me in NSTX, I suppose because my car is lowered and my tires and wheels are larger than stock. I wanted to see if you could give me the quick and dirty low down on the STX clas, what's allowed and what's not. If I went back to stock size tires, would I still be in STX, since my car is lowered?

As we all like to do, I want to still be able to mod my car, but I don't want to end up in some class with purpose built race cars trying to compete. My first objective is to have fun, and of course, right now I am just looking to get more acquianted with the sport, but I would like to know a litle bit more of how far I can go with my mods.

At this point I am still not ruling out getting another car for autocrossing. As much as I want to make a go at it in the Mustang, I must admit, I am still scared of damaging it. There was a nice C6 Vette at the autocross this weekend who spun out while running the course, and he ended up scarliy close to a light pole! And while I was talking to another competitor, I asked him if he ever saw anyone seriously damage their car at an event. He told me that at the last event, a Mitsubishi EVO took out a separate light pole when he went off course and hit it head on! On top of that, there is a decent sized ditch a little bit off course, and you'd have to be carrying some speed to run off course and end up in it, but another guy told me that it has happened on a couple of occasions.

This is a basic rundown of allowable mods in STX:

Strut Tower Bar (2 point)
BOLT ON Sub Frame Connectors
265mm width tires, 140+ treadwear, 9” wide rims
Shocks/Struts (Or Coilovers)
Lowering Springs (Or Coilovers)
Stainless Steel Brake Lines
Brake Ducting
Any brake pads
Any brake rotor and caliper that is larger than stock
Front and Rear Sway Bars
Camber plates
Watts Link
Upper Control arm and mount -OR-
Torque Arm (must bolt on to SFCs and no other attachment points for SFC)
Cold Air Intake + Tune
Full Exhaust (must retain Cats but can be high flow and have to be within 6" of stock location)
Short Throw Shifter
Any Limited Slip Diff that fits the stock housing

The thing to keep in mind is STX isn't a "known" competitive place for any Mustang. I play here because I want to TRY to be competitive in it. Locally so far so good, at the national level, I don't know, but I know it wont be good with me at the helm!

I don't recommend the Torque Arm, at least not at this point. I don't have the experience to really comment on whether or not it's worth it. I'm just taking info from others and they say it isn't so I'm not.

Yes if you are lowered in you are in STX. There is only one class below STX in terms of modifications where any Mustang less than 5.0L can play and that is F-STOCK which only allows Shocks/Struts, Front OR rear sway bar, any tires on stock sized rims and exhaust from the cat back.

 

[Mach2burnout]

Are you kidding me? It sounds like the course designers at your club are morons. I've never seen anyone get anywhere near wrecking their car. Courses are supposed to be designed in such a way as to maximize run off room and minimize potential damage!

Yes but some places are very limited on venues that are available for contests of this nature. So they set up where they can and make the best of it.
And you have to remember that there is always the chance of an accident or car damage. You have to accept that in racing of any kind. Parts break, wheels come off, etc. Just because you are meticulous in your prep, doesn't mean the others there are.


Sent from my iPhone from the driver's seat of my cam'd 05 GT!!

 

[sean858]

Are you kidding me? It sounds like the course designers at your club are morons. I've never seen anyone get anywhere near wrecking their car. Courses are supposed to be designed in such a way as to maximize run off room and minimize potential damage!

Crazy stuff happens man. The Chicago region SCCA runs the Route 66 drag strip parking lot, which is massive and for most part wide open i.e no poles or anything. Last year at an event we had a guy in a 135i spin out and end up going up a hill and through a fence! Car wasn't wrecked but it took a good beating. In my opinion no matter what form of Motorsport you do you should just never assume its safe. Also some of the smaller clubs I run with have to use some pretty unautocross friendly lots where you'll have to get uncomfortable close to poles here and there.

 

[Whiskey11]

Crazy stuff happens man. The Chicago region SCCA runs the Route 66 drag strip parking lot, which is massive and for most part wide open i.e no poles or anything. Last year at an event we had a guy in a 135i spin out and end up going up a hill and through a fence! Car wasn't wrecked but it took a good beating. In my opinion no matter what form of Motorsport you do you should just never assume its safe. Also some of the smaller clubs I run with have to use some pretty unautocross friendly lots where you'll have to get uncomfortable close to poles here and there.

I already know I'm spoiled, but the Nationals site is so big and filled with nothingness there is literally two things to hit, cones, and cornerworkers and as much as I try them pesky cornerworkers are pretty dodgy bastards and leave me to just hit cones!

That doesn't rule out mechanical failure though. I've seen ball joints bust, fried clutch, pop a bias ply tire from a spin, brake lines fail, body pieces fall off (bumper and side skirts of various vehicles). That is just in a year and a half! :O

 

[Sky Render]

My club runs in some pretty small parking lots, and I've never seen anyone damage anything more than a fender liner from eating a cone. Maybe we've got good course designers, slower speeds, or safer drivers. I dunno.

I will say that the one or two times there was almost a wreck, it was always some ricer noob.

 

[TGR96]

Are you kidding me? It sounds like the course designers at your club are morons. I've never seen anyone get anywhere near wrecking their car. Courses are supposed to be designed in such a way as to maximize run off room and minimize potential damage!

Well, from my one time experience with our local club, I can tell that there are a lot of senior members who have been doing this sort of stuff for a long time. I definitely wouldn't call them morons. I think it is more like Mach2 said, they are trying to do the best they can with what they've got. I know the location that they ran last year, where I went to watch, is diferent from where they are running this year. I am not sure why the change of venue. Don't get me wrong, the place we ran last weekend was pretty wide open, probably typical of an autocross event, but there were a few obstacles that you couldn't help but be wary of. The chances of hiting one of those light poles or running off into that ditch are admittedly, pretty low, but still, anything could happen.

Yes but some places are very limited on venues that are available for contests of this nature. So they set up where they can and make the best of it.
And you have to remember that there is always the chance of an accident or car damage. You have to accept that in racing of any kind. Parts break, wheels come off, etc. Just because you are meticulous in your prep, doesn't mean the others there are.

This is true. Although I am new to autocross, I have raced a dirt track car as well as done a good bit of track days with my old sportbike, so I know that the potential for damage or mechanical failure is just part of it. I know it's something that I have to be aware of if I continue (which I certainly plan on doing) with autocross, I just figure that comparitively speaking, the chances of bending my car in an autocross event would be lower than anyother type of motorsport.

And I don't want to get to where I make my DD into so much of a racer that I don't enjoy driving it on the street, or worse yet, have a full blown track car that I have to trailer to an event. That is why I am thining STX would be a good way to go. I would defintely not un-mod my car just so I could be in F-stock.

 

[Whiskey11]

I am thining STX would be a good way to go. I would defintely not un-mod my car just so I could be in F-stock.

I'm telling you, STX is fun when you have competition! I enjoy the up hill battle. It's part of the reason that out of all the places that this car is competitive, I chose STX, the great unknown. It's part of the reason I chose to take a 3700lb car (with my lard ass in it, and it's probably closer to 3800 with me in it) with a live axle and pit it against 2700 lb RX8's and 2800 lb 3 series BMW's. It's part of the reason why I enjoy driving on "limited" grip tires.

The glory of it is that should you get bored with STX, a set of 315 wide A6's on a 10.5" wide wheel at all 4 corners lands you comfortably in ESP with a swinging chance of being competitive. The suspension modifications are essentially identical, there is more power in ESP but not by much and there is the A6's and aero allowances, but otherwise STX is ESP lite on 265 wide street tires on a 9" rim.

I wish our local STX crowd was larger but the RTP (Road Tire Prepared, for those non stock classes on street tires that are not ST*) has gobbled up most of the competition that could otherwise be in STX but chooses to run elsewhere. I just need more of these national level drivers in STX in this area to continue to attend events so I have something to compare to.

It would be nice to have a national level driver run my car and see how it does compared to other cars in STX at the national level. Might be a bit of a pipe dream though as it will be a while before I'm there! Maybe you'll beat me there?

 

[TGR96]

I'm telling you, STX is fun when you have competition! I enjoy the up hill battle. It's part of the reason that out of all the places that this car is competitive, I chose STX, the great unknown. It's part of the reason I chose to take a 3700lb car (with my lard ass in it, and it's probably closer to 3800 with me in it) with a live axle and pit it against 2700 lb RX8's and 2800 lb 3 series BMW's. It's part of the reason why I enjoy driving on "limited" grip tires.

The glory of it is that should you get bored with STX, a set of 315 wide A6's on a 10.5" wide wheel at all 4 corners lands you comfortably in ESP with a swinging chance of being competitive. The suspension modifications are essentially identical, there is more power in ESP but not by much and there is the A6's and aero allowances, but otherwise STX is ESP lite on 265 wide street tires on a 9" rim.

I wish our local STX crowd was larger but the RTP (Road Tire Prepared, for those non stock classes on street tires that are not ST*) has gobbled up most of the competition that could otherwise be in STX but chooses to run elsewhere. I just need more of these national level drivers in STX in this area to continue to attend events so I have something to compare to.

It would be nice to have a national level driver run my car and see how it does compared to other cars in STX at the national level. Might be a bit of a pipe dream though as it will be a while before I'm there! Maybe you'll beat me there?

Man, I appreciate all the info. I must admit, right now I feel like I am drinking from a fire hydrant, trying to read and absorb all the information regarding this sport. I guess that you could say that I am slightly enthusiastic about it.

I agree with you about driving the underdog car. I feel like, if I can go out there and turn in some good times driving the Mustang, I am really doing something. I have also been told by someone on this forum that comparitively speaking, the Mustang is a handful compared to some of the other smaller, more nimble cars in STX. Judging from my first event, I would whole-heartedly agree. Call me strange, but I kinda like that challenge.

Thanks for the heads up about ESP. That can be something I can look forward to in the future. Right now, I am going to focus on getting my car better suited for STX, mainly switching out wheels and tires to something more autocross appropriate and a little lighter.

Oh yeah, and as far as your comment about me beating you there, well, I think you are safe! LOL I am actually thinking of taking on a nick-name to pay hommage to Top Gear's James May, and start referring to myself as "Captain Slow"

 

[sean858]

I concur STX isn't the best place for a Mustang to be competitive but I've been enjoying myself there with my 11 for past few seasons. I like the fact that I can still most of the bolt ons you'd want to do and stay class legal. The easy (not cheap) jump to ESP is nice too. Stay in STX do the mods you want, learn the car, have fun and then go to ESP if you wanna get real serious.

 

[DILYSI Dave]

It would be nice to have a national level driver run my car and see how it does compared to other cars in STX at the national level. Might be a bit of a pipe dream though as it will be a while before I'm there!

If my CP ride falls through for Nats, I could fly in and we could do Nationals together....

 

[Mach2burnout]

Yeah I kinda went mod crazy and have to run with fully prepared rides and veteran drivers. But I have a blast and am steadily inching up on their times.


Sent from my iPhone from the driver's seat of my cam'd 05 GT!!

 

[Whiskey11]

If my CP ride falls through for Nats, I could fly in and we could do Nationals together....

Tempting, I'm a Nationals n00b though so I have NO idea how that all works and I'm not sure I'll have the finances by then. =\ Are you sure you'd want to deal with a car on too narrow of tires and too narrow of rims and too soft of a spring rate for autocross?

Off Topic: Who are you planning on co-driving with in CP? :O

 

[dennisafrompa]

..another thought here.

Run what you brung. Work on your driving technique and improve the car later. I've seen many "bad" cars turn "good" times with an expert autocrosser.

Have fun!

 

[TGR96]

Run what you brung. Work on your driving technique and improve the car later. I've seen many "bad" cars turn "good" times with an expert autocrosser.

Have fun!

I agree 100%. Right now, I am going to try to do as many local events as possible, to get some seat time and just learn my car, really. It's funny, I have owned my car for nearly four years now, and I have never come close to driving it as hard as I did on Saturday. Even though I didn't set the world on fire with my times, I was impressed at what the car could do. With a good driver, I am sure the thing would have run several seconds quicker. I was just trying to keep it from spinning out at every corner, which was fun indeed! LOL

 

[DILYSI Dave]

Tempting, I'm a Nationals n00b though so I have NO idea how that all works and I'm not sure I'll have the finances by then. =\ Are you sure you'd want to deal with a car on too narrow of tires and too narrow of rims and too soft of a spring rate for autocross?

Off Topic: Who are you planning on co-driving with in CP? :O

1. Everyone is a n00b once.
2. Co-Drives are easy at National stuff.
3. I've got a set of JRZ triple adjustable shocks we could swap onto the car in the paddock. If there is a known good rate, could probably even preload the right springs on to them.

The CP ride is an 81 Camaro with Randy Pajer.

 

[Whiskey11]

1. Everyone is a n00b once.
2. Co-Drives are easy at National stuff.
3. I've got a set of JRZ triple adjustable shocks we could swap onto the car in the paddock. If there is a known good rate, could probably even preload the right springs on to them.

The CP ride is an 81 Camaro with Randy Pajer.

1. Truth
2. How so? The pace is pretty frantic from what I have seen at spring nationals. The one thing I haven't found is a schedule for the days as to when things start and all that jive. I'm sure its on the SCCA page but I haven't been serious enough to make the leap yet.
3. Never heard of them before but they seem to have a solid reputation, not that that is saying much as there are a lot of high end companies I have never heard of. Not sure I want to go through the hassle of relearning the car for just one event though let alone do all that work again the night before if you know what I mean! I personally don't think the spring rate is too bad as it is but the pictures show a lot of roll but the car transitions quick enough for my current experience. There is a bit of work that needs to be. Done to make it worthy of an appearance on the national stage. Tires and wheels are probably the biggest thing for me right now with springs and all that jive coming later. Maybe next year at spring nationals! I need to go bother Terry Fair about his 265/40/18 RS3s and see if I can't get them on the cheap since he doesn't use them anymore!

Ahh, I was wondering who. One of our local CP guys was commenting he may be picking up a co driver for nationals but I haven't heard if he made a final decision on that yet or not.

 

[TGR96]

OK, I thought I'd sorta revive this thread with an brief update. Unfortunately, I haven't been in any events since my first one, which was four weeks ago. However, I have two events coming up this weekend, one in Birmingham on Saturday and one locally here in Huntsville on Sunday. The Birmingham event should be pretty cool. It a "north vs. south" event, and right now, there are 30 folks from my local club going down to compete against the folks from the Birmingham region, the "south." Plus, my brother in law will be competeing in his first autocross driving his Hyundai Genesis Type R. Since he lives in Birmingham, he will be on the "south" team. Kind of a family rivalry.

Taking some of y'alls advice, in order to reduce some unsprung weight, this past weekend I picked up a set of 18" Fanblades with some Nitto's from another S197 forum member. These will be pretty much for autocrossing only. I can't believe how much lighter they are than my 20's! Hopefully the car will be more responsive, even though the tread width is only 235. I will see how they do this weekend, and then I will be looking at making a few other mods. I think the next items on the list will be control arms, upper control arm mount, and sway bars.

I will let you all know how things go this weekend. It's only Monday, and I am alreeady getting pumped! It may end up being a long week for me! LOL