You may change your opinion of Livernois...

[ChevyKiller]

After reading this...

I gave Livernois every chance to make things right before I told anyone anything but the clock has ran out so I might as well share my story of some seriously fucked up business dealings...

For those that don't know, I got a set of their type 'R' racing heads. These were supposed to be the 'best of the best' in heads. These things cost me 3 thousand dollars ON TOP of me giving them back a perfectly good set of their stage 3 heads so I am into these heads for a whopping 6 thousand dollars.

At the time I got the heads, there were some claims being made about Livernois fudging flow numbers and I went out and had the heads flow tested at my own expense to help Livernois out and, admittedly, give myself some piece of mind.

On ininitial startup, it was discovered that the drivers side cam which was a 'special' Livernois grind brand new from comp was bent. This is at startup, brand new heads and cams. I sent the cams back to Livernois and after 2 months, I finally got word from them that comp agreed the cam was bent and warrantied them and gave me a new set of cam shafts.

During this time, I pulled the heads completely and had them inspected. Turns out they were damn near destroyed at startup from the bent cam. The drivers side is complete trash and the passenger side is maybe good for a salvage for some parts at best.

This is the last email I received from Mike Schropp where he acknowledges the damage from the bent cam they sent me with the brand new heads...

On our end we would probably not easily be able to sell them. We try to not deal anything that is not a first hand item just because it avoids any possible complications. I would agree that the bent cam probably did a fair amount of that damage and caused that head to go south quick.

At this point though I don’t see how we could repair the damage to the one head because of how extensive the cam tower damage is. The galling and aluminum damage is pretty bad. So it seems as that only really leaves us with one good head. We could take that one head that is good and just clean it up and some basic freshen up stuff on it so you could sell it. On the other bad head however I would say we could salvage the parts used in it but we would need to go through and do another casting up to match the good head.

Is this something that you would want to do?

Thanks
Mike

I'm sorry, but as I replied to him, 'ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME?'

So I am out 6 thousand dollars on a set of heads that came fucked up and got 2 minutes of use out of them. Heads that were already acknowledged to have a bent cam from day one (that nobody seemed to catch mind you) and I am just OUT OF LUCK? I'm not even mentioning the fact the bent cam also cost me a 12 thousand dollar motor.

Friggin' ridiculous...

My biggest regret over the years is not just shelling out the money in the first place and going with JPC/RGR from day one. I would have saved a ton in the end. I will not let anyone but Rich Groh or Justin Burcham ever touch my car again...

 

[eng943]

Wow, how frustrating. RGR is right down the street from me, and I only discovered them after PER built my engine, which I have mixed emotions about.

The JPC/RGR stuff seems to be holding up quite well just from my cursory observations.

 

[vastang757]

Wow thats pretty fucked up man. It blows my mind that companies like this will eat the cost of "inexpensive" screw ups, but when it comes to bigger ticket items you're SOL

 

[09Stroker]

I know of a guy who they just screwed on a 298 stroker short block. The shop I use just installed it for the guy to find out that when started it vibrates so bad you can't hardly sit in the car... needless to say livernois didn't bother to balance it correctly and let it slip on through their fingers... The guy is out the cost of having to pull the engine again and shipping for sending it back to them to have them fix the problem. So a $3k shorblock just turned into a $6k shortblock because of crappy quality control.

The problem is these companies become very popular because of good customer service and product quality then they get so big that the very reason they became big falls to the wayside.

 

[firestang70]

So I am curious to see the reply to this thread. All this bad press sure does seem to make future decisions easier.

 

[Deez-67]

sorry to hear that this happen to you man... I sure hope they pull through and make things right.

 

[ChevyKiller]

What pisses me off is I understand that it is not really Livernois 'fault' that comp supplied them a fucked up camshaft.

What gets me is that I don't have any leverage at all with comp but Livernois does - they purchase tons of parts from them every year and have a much greater chance of holding them accountable than I ever would. However, I'm just out of luck. It surely wasn't MY fault that the heads were screwed up from day one yet I have to be out 18 grand.

It's a travesty.

 

[jeostang]

That really blows man. Sorry to hear it. I won't pass judgment till I read their response.

 

[Deez-67]

What pisses me off is I understand that it is not really Livernois 'fault' that comp supplied them a fucked up camshaft.

What gets me is that I don't have any leverage at all with comp but Livernois does - they purchase tons of parts from them every year and have a much greater chance of holding them accountable than I ever would. However, I'm just out of luck. It surely wasn't MY fault that the heads were screwed up from day one yet I have to be out 18 grand.

It's a travesty.

I wouldn't give up yet...

 

[ChevyKiller]

Mike is talking with me and he is trying to talk to comp so Livernois is not totally 'dicking' me - but in the end, we pretty much know that I am just going to take it in the backside on this and it sucks.

 

[Lee's05GT]

What the hell? Why wouldnt they check the cams before putting them in to see if there bent? Actually scratch that, why doesnt comp check there shit before they send it.

 

[EagleStroker]

On that note, why didn't the installer check that? It passed through to many hands for it to be one persons/company's fault. There is a reason high performance parts aren't warrantied. It sucks, but if you spend enough money your going to break shit, period.

 

[mike@livernois]

I guess I came across this a little late.

I don't think Mark understood initially before he posted this. As in the email that I sent him that he posted my question to him was purely from a technical standpoint of what direction he wanted to go. It had nothing to do with or any mention of money or who was paying for what.

My intention was to assess whether he wanted to pursue building a second head to match the one good one. If that was the case I was going to pursue talking to Comp and seeing what their response was. If they indeed decide to do nothing other than verify the cam was bad than at that point Livernois would work with Mark to try and help him out in this situation.

So at no point yet has nothing has been decided about money. We are not to that point yet and I just re-iterated that to Mark in an email I sent to him before I realized he had posted this and found it. Does not change anything though, I still am going to do what I can in talking to Comp in regards to the cam and if they do not want to help than it will be something that Mark and Livernois will have to work out.

First step for me is getting Comps take on this and also the information from them in regards to the bent cam. IE, how bent? how much? etc?

Bottom line still though was Livernois will do what it can to help even if it is something that we are not directly at fault for in the way of the cam being something that we did not make. In my time doing this I have never received a cam that was bent from Comp, we install the cams and check lash but we do not check cams for bent because it's not something I have ever seen. A cam with a minor bend in it will turn over when statically checking the lash on a head on a bench. However when running dynamically in an engine that little amount of bend can eventually wipe out the cam bores. I guess we will find out more after I get to talk to Comp further tomorrow about it.

Thanks
Mike

 

[pieperz06]

damn that is a bitch and a half

all the threads about ppl breaking stuff defiantly makes me thing twice about even putting on a blower at like 450 hp cuz i sure as hell cant afford the fuckups

 

[AirGoNomyk]

IMHO...The builder should have known they had a "bad cam" Livernois needs to make this right by the Killer. How in the hell does a bent cam even install?

How does it even last 2 minutes?

 

[stangzilla]

damn, man, thats a lot of time and money. i really hope things work out for you.

 

[alloy6ix]

IMHO...The builder should have known they had a "bad cam" Livernois needs to make this right by the Killer. How in the hell does a bent cam even install?

How does it even last 2 minutes?

I'm sure it didn't have a 90 degree bent in the thing, so it could have been negligible and been missed, but I guess that's where the blame stick is still being aimed blindly.. Looks like I'm subscribed to this now. It'll be a good read I'm sure.

 

[myystanng]

What gets me is there have been many post about livernois products being screwed up latley. Not just 1...

CK did stand by livernois when their head flow complaints come up. Let's see how much Livernois values customers. Will they stand by CK or will they prove that if this was you or I that they would screw us to. Error on the side of the client..

Livernois sold the comp cams. This is there sale to the client. Comp owes CK nothing.Livernois owes Ck a new set of 3r heads and new cams. Livernois to work with comp to recover their cost.Mark should be taken care of and should have no concern of what happends between livernios and comp.

 

[usmcpony]

What gets me is there have been many post about livernois products being screwed up latley. Not just 1...

CK did stand by livernois when their head flow complaints come up. Let's see how much Livernois values customers. Will they stand by CK or will they prove that if this was you or I that they would screw us to. Error on the side of the client..

Livernois sold the comp cams. This is there sale to the client. Comp owes CK nothing.Livernois owes Ck a new set of 3r heads and new cams. Livernois to work with comp to recover their cost.Mark should be taken care of and should have no concern of what happends between livernios and comp.

I agree!!!!!!! If you cant stand by the products you SELL. Even if you didnt make them. Then DONT sell them. This is 0% Marks fault and 100% seller/manufacturers fault! Mark is paying for a 8-9 second motor not a damaged motor. I think comp should pay for it and if they dont then Livernois should pay for it since they didnt check them before selling them to a customer. Either way, Im a furture customer of Livernois and Comp. We will see if they earn my business.


Edit: I think Comp is at fault but Livernois sure stand behind the products they sell or dont sell them at all. CK should not be the victim.

Mark = 0% at fault
Livernois=50% at fault
Comp Cams=100% at fault!!!

 

[akula52]

Legal

What should be done and what legally binds a company to do something are two different things for sure. For CK sake, with all the shit that has happened to his car, I hope Livernois does what should be done and I believe they will.