05 gt alternator problems

[Department Of Boost]

Well because it really doesn't take that much time to design a pulley.
Yeah, it takes about an hour, LOL.

But who are you going to get to make them and how much will they cost.

You will need some sort of custom 10rib balancer. That could get tricky. You could use a GT500 one as a "base" but you would want to cut off the other belt system. Getting that worked out would be interesting.

You could probably use a GT500 10 rib A/C pulley but it may require changing out the A/C unit too.

Even if your design time is free (and nothing is "free", even your own time), materials were free and machine time was free you are looking at $1000-2000 easy!

And keep in mind that a 10rib loads the snout shaft more because the belt "sticks out" more. At some point the snout shaft breaks. Ask me how I know.

And have you thought about where you will get a 10rib belt that is 130" long? No such thing as far as I know.

A 10rib would be awesome later on though. Definitely something worthwhile.

It's easy to design just about anything/make it work. Making it affordably on the other hand is the trick. "Worth It" is a relative term.

 

[Dubstep Shep]

But who are you going to get to make them and how much will they cost.

You will need some sort of custom 10rib balancer. That could get tricky. You could use a GT500 one as a "base" but you would want to cut off the other belt system. Getting that worked out would be interesting.

You could probably use a GT500 10 rib A/C pulley but it may require changing out the A/C unit too.

Even if your design time is free (and nothing is "free", even your own time), materials were free and machine time was free you are looking at $1000-2000 easy!

And keep in mind that a 10rib loads the snout shaft more because the belt "sticks out" more. At some point the snout shaft breaks. Ask me how I know.

And have you thought about where you will get a 10rib belt that is 130" long? No such thing as far as I know.


It's easy to design just about anything/make it work. Making it affordably on the other hand is the trick. "Worth It" is a relative term.

Yea, there are definite design considerations as far as production, machining and so forth. I've got a few connections from my job and a few pieces of knowledge so I can machine most pulley designs from bar stock.

I'm not familiar with what goes into a balancer, but from what I've physically observed they don't seem a whole lot more complicated than a regular pulley.

The other route I've been considering is a separate belt and tensioner for the supercharger itself. Jim mentioned it to me once.

I agree that the more ribs and tension you use the more likely you are to snap a shaft, which is nooooo bueno.

As far as belts, you can actually get custom ones, or at least the guys at my old work could. We had one that was a 215" 8-rib. I don't even know where he got it lol. I was told that they could pretty much get what I needed. It probably deserves some more research.

Honestly I just get bored in class and SolidWorks is fun for me. My designs are limited because I really need to get a series of pulleys from the car and get some specs from those. Really I need like 5 of each to get a good spec. I personally don't need the extra grip, but if I ever do end up running the type of power I'd like to, then I'll definitely need it.

Shit, let's just make some sprockets and hook a chain up and call it a day.

 

[Department Of Boost]

Please don’t take this as a put down, just an observation of fact. I’m 20+yrs older then you are. I could probably be your Dad (god I’m feeling old!)

You need to get your head around what you don’t know. And own it. And you will only gain the knowledge you need through experience, hard work, busted knuckles, wasted money, abandoned projects, etc. Your schooling will only teach you so much, when it comes to “hot rodding”, fabrication/customization and true “something from nothing” design the only education you will get is the school of hard knocks.

You have a lot of curiosity, ambition, imagination, etc. You seem like you want to do some cool things with your future. Which is great. But mind your elders and hear there advice, you will save yourself a lot of heartache.

I go through the same thing you do a lot, I’m just further along in my “evolution”. My partner has 20yrs more experience doing this stuff than I do. That makes me the shop retard with starts in his eyes and unrealistic expectations.

The best lesson you will ever learn is what you don’t know and recognize when you are getting advice from the “been there done that” crowd.

Yea, there are definite design considerations as far as production, machining and so forth. I've got a few connections from my job and a few pieces of knowledge so I can machine most pulley designs from bar stock.

For zero cost?

I'm not familiar with what goes into a balancer, but from what I've physically observed they don't seem a whole lot more complicated than a regular pulley.

Then study up. It is not just a smarter pulley. The price for getting it wrong is broken oil pump gears and/or a motor.

The other route I've been considering is a separate belt and tensioner for the supercharger itself. Jim mentioned it to me once.

Can't be done without making a custom snout. You will break the one that comes with the blower. Ask me how I know this.

I agree that the more ribs and tension you use the more likely you are to snap a shaft, which is nooooo bueno.

That is only a small percentage of what breaks it, leverage is the main cause.

As far as belts, you can actually get custom ones, or at least the guys at my old work could. We had one that was a 215" 8-rib. I don't even know where he got it lol. I was told that they could pretty much get what I needed. It probably deserves some more research.

Yes, I know you can get custom belts. I've looked into it for our 10 rib belt drive kits (we have three at this point). It is NOT CHEAP. Again, anything can be done......for enough money.

Really I need like 5 of each to get a good spec.

No you don't, we have designed a SHEDLOAD of pulleys. You only need two specs. The ribs/teeth, which is a SAE spec and the offset. Everything else is up to you if you are the one designing it.

I personally don't need the extra grip, but if I ever do end up running the type of power I'd like to, then I'll definitely need it.

You will never need more grip than a 8 rib system will provide if you are using that blower. Jim has proven that. You can't run one harder than he has.

If you are running the kind of power that needs a 10 rib system you will be using a different blower.

Shit, let's just make some sprockets and hook a chain up and call it a day.

Can't do that with a PD blower. It's not even a good idea to run a cog belt on a PD blown street car. You will tear the blower up.

 

[Dubstep Shep]

Please don’t take this as a put down, just an observation of fact. I’m 20+yrs older then you are. I could probably be your Dad (god I’m feeling old!)

You need to get your head around what you don’t know. And own it. And you will only gain the knowledge you need through experience, hard work, busted knuckles, wasted money, abandoned projects, etc. Your schooling will only teach you so much, when it comes to “hot rodding”, fabrication/customization and true “something from nothing” design the only education you will get is the school of hard knocks.

You have a lot of curiosity, ambition, imagination, etc. You seem like you want to do some cool things with your future. Which is great. But mind your elders and hear there advice, you will save yourself a lot of heartache.

I go through the same thing you do a lot, I’m just further along in my “evolution”. My partner has 20yrs more experience doing this stuff than I do. That makes me the shop retard with starts in his eyes and unrealistic expectations.

The best lesson you will ever learn is what you don’t know and recognize when you are getting advice from the “been there done that” crowd.



For zero cost?



Then study up. It is not just a smarter pulley. The price for getting it wrong is broken oil pump gears and/or a motor.



Can't be done without making a custom snout. You will break the one that comes with the blower. Ask me how I know this.



That is only a small percentage of what breaks it, leverage is the main cause.



Yes, I know you can get custom belts. I've looked into it for our 10 rib belt drive kits (we have three at this point). It is NOT CHEAP. Again, anything can be done......for enough money.



No you don't, we have designed a SHEDLOAD of pulleys. You only need two specs. The ribs/teeth, which is a SAE spec and the offset. Everything else is up to you if you are the one designing it.


You will never need more grip than a 8 rib system will provide if you are using that blower. Jim has proven that. You can't run one harder than he has.

If you are running the kind of power that needs a 10 rib system you will be using a different blower.



Can't do that with a PD blower. It's not even a good idea to run a cog belt on a PD blown street car. You will tear the blower up.

Hahaha my dad is 65, so don't feel too old.

The fact of the matter is that I know I don't know a lot of things. I usually have a general concept that I've developed before, and then I ask A LOT of questions from there on out. It's how I learn; conversation and through doing it. I ask a lot of questions about things because questions are cheaper than parts, and I've been in many a situation where asking a question has saved me a broken something down the road.

It's not about zero cost. The goal of this isn't to get something cheap, at least not in my book. It's to have the best parts (usually custom made) for a bit less than it would cost you from a shop. Besides, being a hands on learner I try to seize on opportunities to do these things.

I'll have to check around and see if there are any good write ups on harmonic balancer pulley design. Proooooobably not on this forum though lol.

Not to be rude here, and correct me if I'm wrong, but if I know anything, it's alternator pulleys. It was quite literally my job.

Remy owns 51% of the aftermarket alternator stake in Auto Zone, Orielley's, and Advance. I designed pulleys for over 300 applications, one of which is the 6G alternator for the S197.

To design a pulley you need your diameter over balls, groove offset for alignment with the belt, fan offset so you clear the frame, shaft diameter, number of grooves, hub length, etc. to be able to design the pulley, plus any unique dimensions like for odd offsets and so forth.

Now, many of those dimensions you could pick and choose if you were designing the entire pulley system; I agree with you there. What I'm saying is that I would need probably 5 OEM pulleys so I could measure then and figure out what the specs for the OEM pulleys are. Once I know what OEM spec is like I can work on modifying it. That's what I meant by saying I need 5 different pulleys to get specs. I would be more than happy to take a screenshot of a pulley design to show you just how many dimensions go into one; or at least how I was taught to make them.

I'm not planning on using a 10rib on my blower. But if I want to run something ridiculous, and make over 1000hp, then it might be a consideration.

And the chain was a joke lol. I'd also like to note that I'm not trying to prove you wrong or me right, I'm merely talking from my own experience.

 

[Department Of Boost]

The fact of the matter is that I know I don't know a lot of things. I usually have a general concept that I've developed before, and then I ask A LOT of questions from there on out. It's how I learn; conversation and through doing it. I ask a lot of questions about things because questions are cheaper than parts, and I've been in many a situation where asking a question has saved me a broken something down the road.

Yet you seem to ignore good advice.

The impression I get from conversing with you is that you aren't listening to what people say. You are just waiting for them to finish talking so you can add your $.02.

You will either think about that or you won't. Want to know what my money is on?

The goal of this isn't to get something cheap, at least not in my book. It's to have the best parts (usually custom made) for a bit less than it would cost you from a shop.

In most cases custom made is not as good as mass produced. The only real advantage custom made has is that it will get you stuff that is not mass produced.

And custom parts for a "bit less" is an oxymoron.

I'll have to check around and see if there are any good write ups on harmonic balancer pulley design. Proooooobably not on this forum though lol.

Probably not anywhere. Designing/making a harmonic balancer is just plain stupid. How would you even test it? Wait to see if the motor broke?

Not to be rude here, and correct me if I'm wrong, but if I know anything, it's alternator pulleys. It was quite literally my job.

Remy owns 51% of the aftermarket alternator stake in Auto Zone, Orielley's, and Advance. I designed pulleys for over 300 applications, one of which is the 6G alternator for the S197.

To design a pulley you need your diameter over balls, groove offset for alignment with the belt, fan offset so you clear the frame, shaft diameter, number of grooves, hub length, etc. to be able to design the pulley, plus any unique dimensions like for odd offsets and so forth.

I was talking about designing other pulleys aside from a clutched alternator pulley. The reason I assumed that was I can't imagine for one second why anyone would want to make their own custom clutched alternator pulley when they can simply buy a mass produced one that is for all intents and purposes perfect. Designing/making a clutched pulley is a galactic waste of time and money.

Now, many of those dimensions you could pick and choose if you were designing the entire pulley system; I agree with you there. What I'm saying is that I would need probably 5 OEM pulleys so I could measure then and figure out what the specs for the OEM pulleys are. Once I know what OEM spec is like I can work on modifying it. That's what I meant by saying I need 5 different pulleys to get specs. I would be more than happy to take a screenshot of a pulley design to show you just how many dimensions go into one; or at least how I was taught to make them.

Your going to modify a clutched pulley? First off why? Second off you think you can come up with something better?

I'm merely talking from my own experience.

What experience? You lost me. Everything I am hearing says you lack experience. What have you designed, made, tested and used long enough to prove the design sound?

Your talking about converting your car to a 8 rib setup right? Why design or custom make anything? Every single part you need to make it happen has already been designed, tested and is mass produced. Custom stuff will cost you more money/time and will most likely not be up to the quality of the stuff you can have sitting on your doorstep in 1-3 days. I don't get it.

We have the ability to custom make just about anything. But we don't waste our time/money on re-inventing the wheel.

Headers, we can custom make those no problem. But we buy them.

8 rib conversions, we can custom make those no problem. But we buy them.

Caster/camber plates, we can custom make those no problem. But we buy them.

Control arms, we can custom make those no problem. But we buy them.

Fuel rails, we can custom make those no problem. But we buy them.

Multi pump fuel hat, we can custom make those no problem. But we buy them.

Etc

Etc

Etc

Etc

Some day hopefully you will understand that time is truly money. And it is not to be wasted. Apply your talents where they will reap benefits. Not re-inventing the most simple of widgets. Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should.

 

[Dubstep Shep]

Yet you seem to ignore good advice.

The impression I get from conversing with you is that you aren't listening to what people say. You are just waiting for them to finish talking so you can add your $.02.

You will either think about that or you won't. Want to know what my money is on?

The goal of this isn't to get something cheap, at least not in my book. It's to have the best parts (usually custom made) for a bit less than it would cost you from a shop.

In most cases custom made is not as good as mass produced. The only real advantage custom made has is that it will get you stuff that is not mass produced.

And custom parts for a "bit less" is an oxymoron.


Probably not anywhere. Designing/making a harmonic balancer is just plain stupid. How would you even test it? Wait to see if the motor broke?


I was talking about designing other pulleys aside from a clutched alternator pulley. The reason I assumed that was I can't imagine for one second why anyone would want to make their own custom clutched alternator pulley when they can simply buy a mass produced one that is for all intents and purposes perfect. Designing/making a clutched pulley is a galactic waste of time and money.


Your going to modify a clutched pulley? First off why? Second off you think you can come up with something better?



What experience? You lost me. Everything I am hearing says you lack experience. What have you designed, made, tested and used long enough to prove the design sound?

Your talking about converting your car to a 8 rib setup right? Why design or custom make anything? Every single part you need to make it happen has already been designed, tested and is mass produced. Custom stuff will cost you more money/time and will most likely not be up to the quality of the stuff you can have sitting on your doorstep in 1-3 days. I don't get it.

We have the ability to custom make just about anything. But we don't waste our time/money on re-inventing the wheel.

Headers, we can custom make those no problem. But we buy them.

8 rib conversions, we can custom make those no problem. But we buy them.

Caster/camber plates, we can custom make those no problem. But we buy them.

Control arms, we can custom make those no problem. But we buy them.

Fuel rails, we can custom make those no problem. But we buy them.

Multi pump fuel hat, we can custom make those no problem. But we buy them.

Etc

Etc

Etc

Etc

Some day hopefully you will understand that time is truly money. And it is not to be wasted. Apply your talents where they will reap benefits. Not re-inventing the most simple of widgets. Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should.

Mass production has many advantages over shoddy hand work, but usually the best stuff in the world isn't mass produced; it's handmade. Guns, race cars, etc.

I'm not talking about making my own clutch pulley. But until I know what the old one looks like and the specs for the one I want, how am I supposed to pick it?

How do the engineers that design the harmonic balances do it? I would wager at least one of them has done some sort of write up on it. Idk. I need to go fishing for that.

Wait, did I not make my experience case clear? At Remy the top aftermarket alternator engineer, my boss, only did 90 pulley designs a year. I did over 300, because it was literally 80% of my job. I'm gonna go ahead and say there aren't many people that have designed over 300 different alternator pulleys, including over 100 clutch pulleys. How am I not qualified to talk about alternator pulleys?

I'm not talking about an 8-rib for my car. Honestly I'm not talking about anything for my car lol. I had thought I said that.

You talk about not doing custom stuff, and yet what is the DOB manifold but a crazy, highly customized manifold adaptor? I would wager the first manifold cost waaaaay more than a $5,000 supercharger kit. I'm sure there were people that said it's so much simpler to just buy any one of the dozens of supercharger systems available. Apparently that didn't discourage you.

I'm not even doing this to sell or to even make at this stage. I'm literally doing it because:
1) I enjoy playing on Solid Works
2) I have a speciality with designing pulleys
3) I figure I'll learn something about other pulleys. Hell, I already did with harmonic balancers.
4) It's a cool idea, and I don't really care if anything comes of it. You might as well spend your time doing something fun and somewhat productive.

 

[Department Of Boost]

Mass production has many advantages over shoddy hand work, but usually the best stuff in the world isn't mass produced; it's handmade. Guns, race cars, etc.

I'm not talking about making my own clutch pulley. But until I know what the old one looks like and the specs for the one I want, how am I supposed to pick it?

How do the engineers that design the harmonic balances do it? I would wager at least one of them has done some sort of write up on it. Idk. I need to go fishing for that.

Wait, did I not make my experience case clear? At Remy the top aftermarket alternator engineer, my boss, only did 90 pulley designs a year. I did over 300, because it was literally 80% of my job. I'm gonna go ahead and say there aren't many people that have designed over 300 different alternator pulleys, including over 100 clutch pulleys. How am I not qualified to talk about alternator pulleys?

I'm not talking about an 8-rib for my car. Honestly I'm not talking about anything for my car lol. I had thought I said that.

You talk about not doing custom stuff, and yet what is the DOB manifold but a crazy, highly customized manifold adaptor? I would wager the first manifold cost waaaaay more than a $5,000 supercharger kit. I'm sure there were people that said it's so much simpler to just buy any one of the dozens of supercharger systems available. Apparently that didn't discourage you.

I'm not even doing this to sell or to even make at this stage. I'm literally doing it because:
1) I enjoy playing on Solid Works
2) I have a speciality with designing pulleys
3) I figure I'll learn something about other pulleys. Hell, I already did with harmonic balancers.
4) It's a cool idea, and I don't really care if anything comes of it. You might as well spend your time doing something fun and somewhat productive.

I give up, good luck man.

 

[Dubstep Shep]

I give up, good luck man.

Well that's your prerogative.

I wish you'd stick around because you've made some good points, but to each their own.

 

[Department Of Boost]

I was talking about it with my boss, an engineer working with alternators for over 15 years, and he flat out told me he has no clue how you could make that power in a smaller case.

You can't really do much more in the way of stator winding; Denso already leads there with their 2nd generation "square wire" stators.

You can't really run a higher field in them, because you need a bigger stator.

So the only way he said you could do it is running more rpms. Which means you need better everything because of increased wear and tear.

But idk, I'd love to talk to those guys and see what they did. Jim said it was a couple of ex Denso engineers.

You were right, they don't put out 200a. We put one on the tester today..........it only made 215a!

Must be magic in there.

 

[Dubstep Shep]

You were right, they don't put out 200a. We put one on the tester today..........it only made 215a!

Must be magic in there.

Lol that's awesome. I really would love to know what they did differently with it.

Out of curiosity, where did it make that? Idle rpm or full rpm? And how long was the test?

I ask because there's no real standard for output. A lot of places will do their tests when the alternator is cold (makes more power than when hot) and at max rpm.

 

[Department Of Boost]

Lol that's awesome. I really would love to know what they did differently with it.

If I told you, I would have to kill you.

Out of curiosity, where did it make that? Idle rpm or full rpm? And how long was the test?

I ask because there's no real standard for output. A lot of places will do their tests when the alternator is cold (makes more power than when hot) and at max rpm.

Here is the 4G. It's making full power by about 1900rpm engine speed (using the OEM size alt pulley, 2.270). This matches up with what I see through my data system while driving.

I'm going to chuck a pulley at the alternator we made that will have the power in by 1700rpm.

If I could have my cake and eat it too I would have full power at idle, but that is not how it works unfortunately. This is technically a “race” alternator though. And with all things race there are compromises.

This is the custom built/bolt in Denso 165A

The power comes in real fast on this bad boy. It will make for a real good aggressive street/race alternator.

Ran out of time today and didn't get the OEM 6G and the 2010+ OEM Denso on the machine. I'll get those graphs shortly.

 

[Dubstep Shep]

If I told you, I would have to kill you.



Here is the 4G. It's making full power by about 1900rpm engine speed (using the OEM size alt pulley, 2.270). This matches up with what I see through my data system while driving.

I'm going to chuck a pulley at the alternator we made that will have the power in by 1700rpm.

If I could have my cake and eat it too I would have full power at idle, but that is not how it works unfortunately. This is technically a “race” alternator though. And with all things race there are compromises.

This is the custom built/bolt in Denso 165A

The power comes in real fast on this bad boy. It will make for a real good aggressive street/race alternator.

Ran out of time today and didn't get the OEM 6G and the 2010+ OEM Denso on the machine. I'll get those graphs shortly.

So what exactly constitutes a "race" alternator? The rpms it's rated to?

 

[Department Of Boost]

So what exactly constitutes a "race" alternator? The rpms it's rated to?

Cost mostly.

Remember how you said custom made stuff is usually better? And I said sure, but for a price. Well the DOB 4G 215a is a perfect example. It is a vey nice, very custom alternator. Everything in it is top shelf. Even the cases get machined quite a bit.

We're not sure what RPM's it is rated to because of it being custom. I've been spinning mine to just under 24K RPM's for over a year though with no problems. No doubt it will spin!

 

[Dubstep Shep]

Cost mostly.

Remember how you said custom made stuff is usually better? And I said sure, but for a price. Well the DOB 4G 215a is a perfect example. It is a vey nice, very custom alternator. Everything in it is top shelf. Even the cases get machined quite a bit.

We're not sure what RPM's it is rated to because of it being custom. I've been spinning mine to just under 24K RPM's for over a year though with no problems. No doubt it will spin!

Interesting...

Out of curiosity what would MSRP be on one of these bad boys?

 

[Department Of Boost]

Interesting...

Out of curiosity what would MSRP be on one of these bad boys?

$450 right now. But that will probably be going up.

 

[Dubstep Shep]

$450 right now. But that will probably be going up.

I was gonna say. That seems a little on the cheap side.

The best performing alternators as far as output goes that I've seen, and the ones the mobile audio video shop I used to work at uses, is Ohio Generator alternators. They're pretty badass, but idk what they do differently either.

They build to order, but they told be they could build me over 250 amps in the same frame. 6G frame, but not a 6G. $700 though.

 

[Department Of Boost]

I was gonna say. That seems a little on the cheap side.

The best performing alternators as far as output goes that I've seen, and the ones the mobile audio video shop I used to work at uses, is Ohio Generator alternators. They're pretty badass, but idk what they do differently either.

They build to order, but they told be they could build me over 250 amps in the same frame. 6G frame, but not a 6G. $700 though.

Well maybe I will raise the price. And when people complain I will blame you.

 

[Dubstep Shep]

Well maybe I will raise the price. And when people complain I will blame you.

Hahahaha supply and demand my friend.

If you're selling for less than people are willing to pay you're just leaving money on the table. Especially if you're already selling at or above your manufacturing capacity.

You including a warranty on the alternators?

 

[Department Of Boost]

Hahahaha supply and demand my friend.

If you're selling for less than people are willing to pay you're just leaving money on the table. Especially if you're already selling at or above your manufacturing capacity.

You including a warranty on the alternators?

I get a lot of "That's a lot of money for an alternator" (the 200a ones). Something is only worth what someone else will pay for it.

1yr warranty

 

[fdjizm]

$450 is cheap for an alternator, on what fuckin planet?
I'm not knocking a high performance alt.
I'm sure your market is like high end radio people and stuff like that.