05 gt alternator problems

[86GT351]

They might be the same frame but they do not have the same mounting pattern. The Crown vic car uses a lower dual mount just above the water pump. The 3 valve uses 3 Longer Bolts that mount from the top of the Alternator downward.

 

[Dubstep Shep]

They might be the same frame but they do not have the same mounting pattern. The Crown vic car uses a lower dual mount just above the water pump. The 3 valve uses 3 Longer Bolts that mount from the top of the Alternator downward.

They are both 6g frames. Two slotted lower mounts and two upper threaded mounts.

I've literally had both alternators sitting in front of me at the same time. I worked for Remy Inc, one of the biggest alternator companies in the world, as an engineering intern this past summer.

 

[rebus]

They are both 6g frames. Two slotted lower mounts and two upper threaded mounts.

I've literally had both alternators sitting in front of me at the same time. I worked for Remy Inc, one of the biggest alternator companies in the world, as an engineering intern this past summer.

Don't know this for a fact, but read on an alternator web site that 2004> PCM controlled regulator models also use the 6G plug. Wiring within the plug could be different, schematics should show any differences. It looks like it's a bolt on swap, with a minor difference in the top mounting hole location on the bracket. Was said by the website that it was a good idea to get the same year as your car, earlier alternators use a regulator, later models use PCM control. The later models come stock with a clutch, (I've seen some rebuilds on ebay with straight pullies to save them the cost of the clutch) so you'd have to change pullies for a B/W supercharger application. The question is, will the PCM work with it? Someone must have tried it?

 

[Dubstep Shep]

Got an update for you guys.

Started digging into a few things online and came up with a few things.

Basically, the alternators for the base model Crown Victoria and the Mustang GT for the 2008 year are identical, except that the Crown Victoria model has a standard pulley, and the GT has a clutch pulley. They're 135 amps each, but essentially interchangeable.

The Crown Victoria Police Interceptor for the 2008 model year is a 215 amp instead of a 135, and has a clutch pulley.

The mounts on the frames are identical for all three alternators.

The plugs are identical for all three alternators.

I would strongly wager the 215 from the police interceptor would work on our cars, except that you'd need to upgrade your power wire, as the B+ terminals are larger on the 215, and I'm not 100% sure on a possible difference in pulley size, but you can just swap your clutch pulley onto the police interceptor alternator and that would prevent any problems.

References:

2008 Ford Crown Victoria Police Interceptor 215 amp alternator
http://catalog.remyinc.com/Product/Details/94414?page=0&component=Product&searchType=app&productType=alternator&filter=1&make=Ford&year=++++++2008&model=Crown+Victoria&engine=4.6+Liter+V8+-+281+CID

2008 Ford Crown Victoria Base 135 amp alternator
http://catalog.remyinc.com/Product/Details/92556?page=0&component=Product&searchType=app&productType=alternator&filter=1&make=Ford&year=++++++2008&model=Crown+Victoria

2008 Ford Mustang GT 135 amp
http://catalog.remyinc.com/Product/Details/92535?page=0&component=Product&searchType=app&productType=alternator&filter=1&make=Ford&year=++++++2008&model=Mustang&engine=4.6+Liter+V8+-+281+CID

 

[rebus]

For what it's worth. "There is programming information inside the powertrain control module specific to the alternator model that a crownvic originally had. But some people have upgraded their 2003+ civilian crownvics from the 4G civilian alternators to the high output police interceptor alternators by just splicing on a different alternator regulator pigtail and upgrading the output wire. And some police interceptors have had their 200amp mitsubishi alternators downgraded to the 135amp 6G alternators by just plugging in the new alternator. In both cases, no driveability problems were reported despite not reprogamming the pcm."

 

[Dubstep Shep]

For what it's worth. "There is programming information inside the powertrain control module specific to the alternator model that a crownvic originally had. But some people have upgraded their 2003+ civilian crownvics from the 4G civilian alternators to the high output police interceptor alternators by just splicing on a different alternator regulator pigtail and upgrading the output wire. And some police interceptors have had their 200amp mitsubishi alternators downgraded to the 135amp 6G alternators by just plugging in the new alternator. In both cases, no driveability problems were reported despite not reprogamming the pcm."

I would have to check with the electrical and software engineers, but I would imagine the PCM programming would be identical for both models. It's likely an adaptive program that identifies the alternator it's attached to and responds in kind. I'm not 100%, but I know Ford does that on some applications.

 

[rebus]

I would have to check with the electrical and software engineers, but I would imagine the PCM programming would be identical for both models. It's likely an adaptive program that identifies the alternator it's attached to and responds in kind. I'm not 100%, but I know Ford does that on some applications.

Ford has a bulletin TSB 04-21-23 that details re-programming required on 2003 Crown Victoria's switching to the police package alternator. They made a kit that included an extension harness, and a new main harness with the bigger m8 ring terminal. The link i have for the TSB is broken so I haven't read it. The programming changes may have to do with raising the idle speed, as well as tweaking the strategy on the 2003. Anything 2004 and up should be good. I was under the impression from an earlier post that you had one, and were going to test it on your ride? I would need to purchase one then swap out the clutch pulley to a straight pulley so it can be mounted backwards to try it out on mine. I tested my stock 6G today and it's putting out 14.2 @ 725 rpm, can't really complain.

*The TSB re-programming is only to raise idle speed on the 03. Link: http://www.idmsvcs.com/2vmod/alternator/mitsubishi/upgrade/tsb042123.html

 

[Dubstep Shep]

Ford has a bulletin TSB 04-21-23 that details re-programming required on 2003 Crown Victoria's switching to the police package alternator. They made a kit that included an extension harness, and a new main harness with the bigger m8 ring terminal. The link i have for the TSB is broken so I haven't read it. The programming changes may have to do with raising the idle speed, as well as tweaking the strategy on the 2003. Anything 2004 and up should be good. I was under the impression from an earlier post that you had one, and were going to test it on your ride? I would need to purchase one then swap out the clutch pulley to a straight pulley so it can be mounted backwards to try it out on mine. I tested my stock 6G today and it's putting out 14.2 @ 725 rpm, can't really complain.

*The TSB re-programming is only to raise idle speed on the 03. Link: http://www.idmsvcs.com/2vmod/alternator/mitsubishi/upgrade/tsb042123.html

I have one at my old work. We had planned to swap them and see what happened, but I never got the chance to make it back up there

 

[Department Of Boost]

We’ve test fit the Mitsubishi “Police” alternator up on the 3v’s. They will fit if you have a stock/stock style manifold. But the way they come the B+ gets into all sorts of stuff so saying they are a "bolt in" is not quite right.


The Mitsubishi “Police” alternator does not fit on the following blower/manifold combinations:

Whipple 2.3L H.O
Kenne Bell 2.6L
Kenne Bell 2.8L
Department Of Boost GT450
Roush TVS

And I doubt they will fit:

Saleen
EForce

They are BIG alternators.

And yes, you would need to upgrade the wiring to at least a 2ga (this includes the ground) and put a 250A fuse in the cable.

We never tried to actually run a car with one so I do not know if there are any PCM issues.

Because it was so big and problematic for most high amp needs (blown cars) we didn’t do anymore R&D in that direction.

Instead we did up some custom cased/assembled 4G’s that make 200a and are fairly compact. They do need wiring upgrades.

And just finished up some custom assembled 165a Denzo’s that are a direct bolt in. No wiring upgrade needed, but it doesn’t hurt.

For reference the 2005-2009 stock alternators are 6G’s that have all sorts of problems. And I have yet to see one actually make 135a like it is supposed to.

In 2010 Ford started putting 135A Denzo’s on the Mustang (because the 6G was such a problem). These can be had as a “stock replacement” from just about any alternator source but they are still 135a (ours are 165a) and are not any less expensive than what we came up with. Plus ours are powdercoated black…..which is worth at least another 15hp. Plus there is a sticker, which is another 5hp.

The 165a Denzo is probably the best option. They are reliable as hell, makes great power and is a direct bolt in. But if you are playing with multiple fuel pumps, electric water pumps, extra fans and/or a big stereo the 200a 4G is the way to go.

 

[rebus]

I have one at my old work. We had planned to swap them and see what happened, but I never got the chance to make it back up there

Oh well, just waiting on someone who has already done this, has foreknowledge, or someone willing to try it, what's the worst that could happen? Let the smoke out of the wires? If I was a gambling man, I'd bet on it working perfectly. No doubt about it, a person will have to upgrade the wire harness to a larger gauge, or double up the existing harness to handle the current. Grinding on the top bracket to clear the post on the P71 Alt may be required as well. Though Ford used a 6 rib pulley, an alternator builder insists that you can only pull 180 amps before belt slip, effectively rendering anything over that as useless. He claims you need a 8 rib as used on the Ford trucks to pull anything more than that? Do you have any knowledge on that?

 

[Dubstep Shep]

Oh well, just waiting on someone who has already done this, has foreknowledge, or someone willing to try it, what's the worst that could happen? Let the smoke out of the wires? If I was a gambling man, I'd bet on it working perfectly. No doubt about it, a person will have to upgrade the wire harness to a larger gauge, or double up the existing harness to handle the current. Grinding on the top bracket to clear the post on the P71 Alt may be required as well. Though Ford used a 6 rib pulley, an alternator builder insists that you can only pull 180 amps before belt slip, effectively rendering anything over that as useless. He claims you need a 8 rib as used on the Ford trucks to pull anything more than that? Do you have any knowledge on that?

Yea a bigger gauge wire is a must. The plugs look identical and the frames are as well, so mounting should be simple. I doubt that belt slippage would be a big deal on these cars, but I can't say for sure there.

Hopefully I'll have my car back on the ground this week, and hopefully I'll be able to make it back up to my work within a week or two of that.

 

[Dubstep Shep]

We’ve test fit the Mitsubishi “Police” alternator up on the 3v’s. They will fit if you have a stock/stock style manifold. But the way they come the B+ gets into all sorts of stuff so saying they are a "bolt in" is not quite right.


The Mitsubishi “Police” alternator does not fit on the following blower/manifold combinations:

Whipple 2.3L H.O
Kenne Bell 2.6L
Kenne Bell 2.8L
Department Of Boost GT450
Roush TVS

And I doubt they will fit:

Saleen
EForce

They are BIG alternators.

And yes, you would need to upgrade the wiring to at least a 2ga (this includes the ground) and put a 250A fuse in the cable.

We never tried to actually run a car with one so I do not know if there are any PCM issues.

Because it was so big and problematic for most high amp needs (blown cars) we didn’t do anymore R&D in that direction.

Instead we did up some custom cased/assembled 4G’s that make 200a and are fairly compact. They do need wiring upgrades.

And just finished up some custom assembled 165a Denzo’s that are a direct bolt in. No wiring upgrade needed, but it doesn’t hurt.

For reference the 2005-2009 stock alternators are 6G’s that have all sorts of problems. And I have yet to see one actually make 135a like it is supposed to.

In 2010 Ford started putting 135A Denzo’s on the Mustang (because the 6G was such a problem). These can be had as a “stock replacement” from just about any alternator source but they are still 135a (ours are 165a) and are not any less expensive than what we came up with. Plus ours are powdercoated black…..which is worth at least another 15hp. Plus there is a sticker, which is another 5hp.

The 165a Denzo is probably the best option. They are reliable as hell, makes great power and is a direct bolt in. But if you are playing with multiple fuel pumps, electric water pumps, extra fans and/or a big stereo the 200a 4G is the way to go.

Yea, the Ford 6Gs have plenty of problems. Denso makes pretty bulletproof alternators, but our Remy alternators tested above 135 of our alt 95 tester. Personally the Denso is a good choice, but the Mitsubishi alternators are pretty slick if you can fit one.

Actually, it will fit on the DOB GT450, IFF you use the stock fuel rails from a mustang GT. Jim didn't have the space, but he was using GT500 rails. I do have the space, but I'm using stock rails.

The advantage to the Mitsubishi is that it's cheap.

Also, how the smell did you guys fit 200amps in the alternator Jim has?

 

[Department Of Boost]

Yea, the Ford 6Gs have plenty of problems. Denso makes pretty bulletproof alternators, but our Remy alternators tested above 135 of our alt 95 tester. Personally the Denso is a good choice, but the Mitsubishi alternators are pretty slick if you can fit one.

What tested over 135a? The 6G or the Denzo?

Actually, it will fit on the DOB GT450, IFF you use the stock fuel rails from a mustang GT. Jim didn't have the space, but he was using GT500 rails. I do have the space, but I'm using stock rails.

The back of the alternator is too "pregnant", it won't fit between the manifold body and the front alternator bracket. We tried fitting one up, there was no way. It could be made to work with a different alternator bracket and a cowl hood/dropped motor mounts. But at that point more money has been spent getting it to fit than a different alternator.

The advantage to the Mitsubishi is that it's cheap.

Too bad it won't fit most of the applications that need it (blown cars with pumps/fans)

Also, how the smell did you guys fit 200amps in the alternator Jim has?

My buddy who owns the place we get them built at did all the design work. Alternator innards are not my department at all. You most likely know 10000x more than I do about how they work. They are beasts though, I'm running the following on my car with no issues and no belt slip as far as I know:

3x 265lph fuel pumps on a return system (running WOT all the time).
3x Meziere 55gpm water pumps
1x stock radiator fan
1x aux 16" pusher fan
2x 10" puller fans
1x Tilton transmission cooler pump
AIM data system/dash
And all the stock stuff like lights, heater, Shaker 500, etc

 

[Dubstep Shep]

What tested over 135a? The 6G or the Denzo?


The back of the alternator is too "pregnant", it won't fit between the manifold body and the front alternator bracket. We tried fitting one up, there was no way. It could be made to work with a different alternator bracket and a cowl hood/dropped motor mounts. But at that point more money has been spent getting it to fit than a different alternator.


Too bad it won't fit most of the applications that need it (blown cars with pumps/fans)


My buddy who owns the place we get them built at did all the design work. Alternator innards are not my department at all. They are beasts though, I'm running the following on my car with no issues and no belt slip as far as I know:

3x 265lph fuel pumps on a return system (running WOT all the time).
3x Meziere 55gpm water pumps
1x stock radiator fan
1x aux 16" pusher fan
2x 10" puller fans
1x Tilton transmission cooler pump
AIM data system/dash
And all the stock stuff like lights, heater, Shaker 500, etc

The 6G. Granted it's an aftermarket, but it's designed as an OE replacement.

It definitely looked like it would bolt right in to my car. I'll have to snap a pic and throw it on here later.

I was talking about it with my boss, an engineer working with alternators for over 15 years, and he flat out told me he has no clue how you could make that power in a smaller case.

You can't really do much more in the way of stator winding; Denso already leads there with their 2nd generation "square wire" stators.

You can't really run a higher field in them, because you need a bigger stator.

So the only way he said you could do it is running more rpms. Which means you need better everything because of increased wear and tear.

But idk, I'd love to talk to those guys and see what they did. Jim said it was a couple of ex Denso engineers.

 

[rebus]

Thanks gmitch! The reason I was interested is I'm running a Saleen with dual fan heat exchanger, plus all the other junk. I'm sure it's pushing the limits of the 6G. Your Denso solution sounds good, will it work on the Saleen?

 

[Department Of Boost]

Thanks gmitch! The reason I was interested is I'm running a Saleen with dual fan heat exchanger, plus all the other junk. I'm sure it's pushing the limits of the 6G. Your Denso solution sounds good, will it work on the Saleen?

Yep you ran out of 6G a while ago. And it could crap out any second.

The Denzo is a direct bolt in.

 

[Department Of Boost]

It definitely looked like it would bolt right in to my car. I'll have to snap a pic and throw it on here later.

Snap a pic of it "fitting" in there if it does. I know it looks like it will fit, but that is different.

I was talking about it with my boss, an engineer working with alternators for over 15 years, and he flat out told me he has no clue how you could make that power in a smaller case.

You can't really do much more in the way of stator winding; Denso already leads there with their 2nd generation "square wire" stators.

You can't really run a higher field in them, because you need a bigger stator.

So the only way he said you could do it is running more rpms. Which means you need better everything because of increased wear and tear.

But idk, I'd love to talk to those guys and see what they did. Jim said it was a couple of ex Denso engineers.

I have no idea how he did it, but it isn't with RPM's. We aren't spinning them any faster than a stock alternator.

 

[Dubstep Shep]

Snap a pic of it "fitting" in there if it does. I know it looks like it will fit, but that is different.



I have no idea how he did it, but it isn't with RPM's. We aren't spinning them any faster than a stock alternator.

That'll have to wait until I can make it back up there. At least a couple weeks.

Well tell your guys if they need a hand I'm more than happy. I'm actually working on some pulley designs for an 8 and 10 groove DOB system. Hehehe. Pulleys are my speciality

 

[Department Of Boost]

That'll have to wait until I can make it back up there. At least a couple weeks.

Well tell your guys if they need a hand I'm more than happy. I'm actually working on some pulley designs for an 8 and 10 groove DOB system. Hehehe. Pulleys are my speciality

Why put the time into a 8 rib system. They can already be had for cheap.

A 10 rib would be cool, massive overkill, but cool.

 

[Dubstep Shep]

Why put the time into a 8 rib system. They can already be had for cheap.

A 10 rib would be cool, massive overkill, but cool.

Well because it really doesn't take that much time to design a pulley, unless you're doing clutch pulleys, in which case you're better off calling the manufacturer and seeing what's available because making one is a TERRIBLE idea.

I do it because I'm bored. A 10rib would be awesome later on though. Definitely something worthwhile.