Torque Arm on an S197

[barbaro]

Whisky, your point about momentum driving the car and how the car becomes more of a point and shoot vehicle because the Torque Arm promotes understeer is right on. I could not articulate that but you did it for me. For my setup which as you know is somewhat different than yours, the rear grip / forward bite improves so dramatically that it takes a hell of an entry speed to drift into and then out of a corner. I made the same adjustment you did. Hard on the throttle, hard on the brake into the corner and jump on the throttle slightly before the Apex because the grip will be there. Before the torque arm i tended to use more of the road and I would feel my differential (Torsen T2r) engaging a lot more. I miss that i must admit.
After the torque arm, the grip is so consistent that I have to really get on it to to feel the differential engage. I now rarely engage the torsen on the street. It takes track level driving to consistently engage it.
As you know aside from the above, my opinion is the torque arm is the bomb for all the reasons you stated plus 10 others not the least of which is the super consistent launches it gives. I think of it as mechanical launch control. So definitely good for drag racing I would think.

 

[sheizasosay]

Some of the people who were posting on there were getting on my nerves. I tend ignore post where the poster doesn't have first hand experience with a product and I was ignoring a lot.

I'm probably one of the people you are referring to as "not having experience"; and I don't with the Torque Arm. I can appreciate wanting first hand experience. That thread got pretty badly derailed and there were a lot of insults and flaming that weren't needed. Depending on the day, it can get rowdy.

This will be a quick point. We were quick to say "prove it" to Barbaro who was having a hard time proving it or the why of it. Can't blame him for not being able to prove it as he was just wanting an improved ride and apparently he got it I assume. Others wanted a little more.

Here is a PERFECT example of why we are a little "guarded" with our investments:
http://www.svtperformance.com/forum...-grip-coilover-system-installed-reviewed.html

You read that and you read Barbaro's threads and you would think that the guy in the above link had a Torque Arm. The parallels between Barbaro's review and the guy in the link's review are close in description.

 

[kcbrown]

Whisky, your point about momentum driving the car and how the car becomes more of a point and shoot vehicle because the Torque Arm promotes understeer is right on.

That's actually very interesting, and dissuades me from using a torque arm. One of the things I like about the Mustang is its reported balance (which I expect to experience for myself reasonably soon), and I would not want to disturb that, even if the end result is better grip. After all, I'm in this for the fun of it, not to get the best possible lap times.

 

[SoundGuyDave]

kcbrown,

How much track time do you have in previous vehicles, and what types?

 

[SD_Stang]

I'm probably one of the people you are referring to as "not having experience"; and I don't with the Torque Arm. I can appreciate wanting first hand experience. That thread got pretty badly derailed and there were a lot of insults and flaming that weren't needed. Depending on the day, it can get rowdy.

This will be a quick point. We were quick to say "prove it" to Barbaro who was having a hard time proving it or the why of it. Can't blame him for not being able to prove it as he was just wanting an improved ride and apparently he got it I assume. Others wanted a little more.

Here is a PERFECT example of why we are a little "guarded" with our investments:
http://www.svtperformance.com/forum...-grip-coilover-system-installed-reviewed.html

You read that and you read Barbaro's threads and you would think that the guy in the above link had a Torque Arm. The parallels between Barbaro's review and the guy in the link's review are close in description.

I know User GR40 Freak was Colin who worked for Griggs and was on this Forum a few years back and was probably a wealth of Knowledge regarding the Torque Arm setup.

That being said what are most of you running for a UCA? I ended up looking on Maximum Motorsports site and they didn't even list a UCA for the 2005+. I did talk to them once when I purchased my Koni Sports for my 2011 and the person at the time recommended the Roush UCA,

 

[Sky Render]

Why do you need an aftermarket UCA so badly?

 

[kcbrown]

kcbrown,

How much track time do you have in previous vehicles, and what types?

Not a lot. In a Fox body Mustang.

It's why I'm not making any changes at all until I get some seat time in my car in stock trim (well, stock except for wheels, tires, brake pads, brake lines, and brake ducts).

 

[dontlifttoshift]

So you have no seat time in your current car?

 

[kcbrown]

So you have no seat time in your current car?

Correct (at least as regards track driving). I only bought it about a month ago. That's why I'm not changing a thing on it initially except for the basic things that will either be necessary regardless (another set of wheels and tires: gotta be able to get home even if I burn through the set that's on the car, so I may as well get the widest ones I can fit under the fenders and remain on a square setup) or will improve safety (brake stuff: pads, fluid, lines, ducts; and a differential overflow). I need to get seat time first, see how it handles before I have some idea of what I would want to change.

It's entirely possible that I won't want to change a thing. Or I might want to change a lot. Can't really know without that seat time.

I can tell from street driving that I'm not impressed with the amount of apparent brake dive there is, but I am impressed with how it seems to handle on the street. I realize that isn't a huge indicator of what I can expect on the track, but it does count.


The most interesting question comes when one is forced to trade how it handles on the street to get improvement in how it handles on the track. I wouldn't expect that kind of trade to happen terribly early in the game, though. I would expect that, initially, improvements you see in one environment would tend to translate to improvements in the other, and since the track environment is a more controlled testing environment, it makes sense to tailor the initial adjustments to that environment.

The one thing I'm not all that impressed with is how the car sits: relatively high. But that is growing on me somewhat (which is to say, I'm not minding it as much now as I did initially) and may be mitigated slightly with the wider wheels and tires I'm getting. Just based on what I've seen, I'm not really opposed to how the Boss 302 sits, despite the rake, but I would prefer to at least have the back end remain at its current height during heavy braking as long as that doesn't somehow make the car feel worse. Right now, it raises during braking (on both the stock GT and the Boss 302), thus contributing to the brake dive sensation.


I'm fairly close to being past the 1000 mile break-in period. What is unclear to me is whether it's wise to track the car on the factory fill or if it's better to change the oil prior to that. Mine has the track package, so it should have sufficient cooling to deal with the track environment.

 

[SoundGuyDave]

I'd do a change before you go out, personally. Other than that, I think you have your head screwed on straight with regards to NOT modding the hell out of it before you go...

Let us know what your impressions were after you've turned a few corners in anger, I'm looking forward to the discussion!

Oh, and make sure you do some video (and data if you can)!

 

[kcbrown]

I'd do a change before you go out, personally.

What kind of change? To a torque arm?

I was thinking, instead, of the implications of using relocation brackets along with rear LCAs without lowering the car. It'd be cheaper, something I'd need to do anyway if I elect to lower the car later, and it would (presumably) mostly eliminate the lift in the rear during braking (but that presumes that anti-squat and anti-lift are going to be the same or, at least affected in the same way by the same change).

Other than that, I think you have your head screwed on straight with regards to NOT modding the hell out of it before you go...

There are a couple of reasons I intend to drive the car in essentially stock form before I modify the suspension:

To provide me a baseline to work from, a known quantity.
To give me some idea of what I don't like so that I'll know what to change.


It's not clear to me that, aside from wheels, tires, the brake stuff I mentioned, and the axle overflow can, there are any modifications I should be making that I can say I know I will like.

Let us know what your impressions were after you've turned a few corners in anger, I'm looking forward to the discussion!

Oh, and make sure you do some video (and data if you can)!

I will do my best for all of that! Needless to say, I'm very much looking forward to it.



By the way, does time behind the wheel (literally -- I have a steering wheel and pedals setup that works great) of Gran Turismo 5 count as "seat time"?

 

[barbaro]

I understand Sheizasosay's comparison. We were both a little overly enthuiastic. The conclusion I have come to is that torque arms are for people like me who want the best ride and handling I can get out of a softly sprung car. For people with a real great coilover set and other mods, I think it has an effect but not as dramatic a one as it is going to have on a softly sprung car like mine.

A great set of Coilovers such as the ones Dave had in the SVT post are an upgrade that will of course give great handling benefits and should probably be the first choice of a serious track enthusiast. His set up was north of 7k I believe. So he should be over the moon about it.

It is very difficult to articulate the subjective difference in driving the car with a torque arm. It changes the handling and feel of the car, In my mind, for the better. I agree with what Whiskey said and he used the same term I did in my original review, "point and shoot" that is the difference in feel. It increases your confidence. The car is easier to drive fast. I take corners much faster than I did before. It makes the platform more stable. Is it as dramatic a difference as coilovers? Probably not, but it's different.

It does such a good job of keeping both tires in contact with the pavement in turns that
throttle oversteer requires more throttle and more guts. The grip seems to give the car a directional stability it did not have before. When you choose a line in the corner it sticks to that line body lean be damned and it is less likely to drift offline like it did before. Hence the "point and shoot" reference which was unwittingly repeated by Whiskey.
As much as fun as drifting offline, or letting your momentum define your line, feeling that Torsen kick in, and using all of the road was; I'll take the torque arm hands down. It makes the car grippier, more precise and reduces nosedive. But you just have to drive a Griggs or Cortex setup and see for yourself.

 

[SoundGuyDave]

What kind of change? To a torque arm?

I was thinking, instead, of the implications of using relocation brackets along with rear LCAs without lowering the car. It'd be cheaper, something I'd need to do anyway if I elect to lower the car later, and it would (presumably) mostly eliminate the lift in the rear during braking (but that presumes that anti-squat and anti-lift are going to be the same or, at least affected in the same way by the same change).

Whoops, my apologies... MAJOR failure to use the "quote" button. I meant oil change.

As for the relo brackets, I would hold off. I've run both with and without them, and at least in my experience, they made no difference whatsoever in the amount of "skirt lifting" under braking. Dampers and springs will do what you (may eventually) need there, but the A/S geometry is not the first place to look.

I'm intentionally avoiding offering opinion on what you will experience, since I would prefer you to go in with a "clean sheet" mentality. Suffice it to say that yes, there are areas that could stand improvement, however, it's light-years more drivable than your old Fox! I have a feeling that for you, the journey is going to be half the fun.

There are a couple of reasons I intend to drive the car in essentially stock form before I modify the suspension:

To provide me a baseline to work from, a known quantity.
To give me some idea of what I don't like so that I'll know what to change.

Brilliant! Somebody is actually going to do what every instructor for the last 50 years has been preaching! Learn to drive. THEN learn to drive the car. THEN fix the car to make it faster. In that order. It looks like you're set square on the perfect path!

It's not clear to me that, aside from wheels, tires, the brake stuff I mentioned, and the axle overflow can, there are any modifications I should be making that I can say I know I will like.

Yes, you missed the most important three:

1) Remove steering wheel airbag to allow tightening the loose nut behind it.
2) Large hole in center of seat bottom to allow clearance for larger gonads gained by learning to push the car properly.
3) New job to increase amount of disposable income to pay for all of this!

Seriously, your list is just about perfect, only thing I don't remember is if you had brake cooling in there somewhere. If not, think about it. Pads and fluid for sure, the rest if you can.

Tires: Resist the temptation to get uber-sticky rubber, particularly at the start. I had a student in a Miata earlier this year, some track time, but horrendously inconsistent through the different phases of the corner. Saturday he had V710s on the car, and I talked him into swapping back to the all-seasons for Sunday. Suddenly, now that he could hear his tires giving audible feedback, he was able to grasp "consistant loading," and worked that into his repertoire. At the end of the day, his lap timer ap was showing him less than .2 seconds off of saturday's pace... I understand not wanting to trash your street rubber, but if you're at or near novice-level, the sticky stuff will make you feel like a hero, but they're a lot harder to learn the limits with. Just for the sake of argument, you may want to look at CHEAP all-seasons in whatever size floats your boat, but certainly nothing more aggressive than a 200 treadwear tire to start with. Once you learn that, and gain an understanding of the balance and the feel of being on the edge, then go to sticky's, and work your speeds up to where you have that same feeling.

By the way, does time behind the wheel (literally -- I have a steering wheel and pedals setup that works great) of Gran Turismo 5 count as "seat time"?

LOL!!! No. Using iRacing, I can't even get within 4 seconds of my real-world times!

 

[kcbrown]

Whoops, my apologies... MAJOR failure to use the "quote" button. I meant oil change.

Oh, okay. Yeah, I was thinking that.

The only question that I have on that is whether or not Ford puts any "special sauce" in the initial oil fill for break-in. 1000 miles is the break-in interval, but that's the period in which you're not supposed to be on full throttle for extended runs, nor on a constant throttle/RPM setting for extended periods. But Ford probably expects you to stay on the factory fill until the magic oil change indicator says it's time to change it.

Needless to say, I've been nailing the throttle every chance I get once the oil's warmed up to temperature (which, thanks to traffic, isn't all that often, about once or twice every 30 miles or something) since the preponderance of evidence seems to support that as being better for the ring seals. But I don't know if changing the oil at, say, 1500 miles will prematurely halt the break-in of the engine or not, seeing how Ford calls for the 5W50 "full synthetic" for this car...

As for the relo brackets, I would hold off. I've run both with and without them, and at least in my experience, they made no difference whatsoever in the amount of "skirt lifting" under braking. Dampers and springs will do what you (may eventually) need there, but the A/S geometry is not the first place to look.

That's most unfortunate. It makes me wonder why they make no real difference for that.

Oh, well. Money saved, I guess. :-D

For all I know, I may wind up deciding that the brake dive characteristics are worth tolerating in order to retain the ride quality I want...

I'm intentionally avoiding offering opinion on what you will experience, since I would prefer you to go in with a "clean sheet" mentality. Suffice it to say that yes, there are areas that could stand improvement, however, it's light-years more drivable than your old Fox! I have a feeling that for you, the journey is going to be half the fun.

Oh, at least that much!

Brilliant! Somebody is actually going to do what every instructor for the last 50 years has been preaching! Learn to drive. THEN learn to drive the car. THEN fix the car to make it faster. In that order. It looks like you're set square on the perfect path!

That's the idea, at least. As an engineer-type at heart, I like methodical approaches to things.

Yes, you missed the most important three:

1) Remove steering wheel airbag to allow tightening the loose nut behind it.
2) Large hole in center of seat bottom to allow clearance for larger gonads gained by learning to push the car properly.
3) New job to increase amount of disposable income to pay for all of this!

LOL!!

Fortunately for me, the job angle is already taken care of. Gotta admit, though, paying for the car put a bit of a dent in the finances, but that'll be recovered if given enough time. Or not, if I burn through the consumables too quickly!

Seriously, your list is just about perfect, only thing I don't remember is if you had brake cooling in there somewhere. If not, think about it. Pads and fluid for sure, the rest if you can.

I've got a brake duct kit ready for installation.

I'm not screwing around on the brakes. I'll have Stoptech pads (good to 1300 degrees, but still perfectly good on the street -- got 'em on my Stoptech brakes on my 300ZX Twin Turbo and they're wonderful), stainless brake lines (thanks, Terry!), Centric rotors, and the Ford Racing brake duct kit on the car before I turn a single corner on the track. Brake fade is absolutely the last thing I want when entering a corner. This car is going to be a track toy in large part, but I love this thing already and stuffing it into a wall would break my heart. Not gonna do that. My intention is to ramp up s...l...o...o...o...w...l...y and learn safely. One of the reasons I got GT5 was in the hopes of learning the track layouts so that I don't wind up going too hot into a corner as a result of not remembering what the corner characteristics are (my memory is worse than nearly everyone's, so this is a real concern for me). I was hoping its track editor would make it possible to "build" the tracks that it doesn't come with, but noooo...

Tires: Resist the temptation to get uber-sticky rubber, particularly at the start.

My intent actually is to stay on street tires, firstly because they're way cheaper (in part because they do double duty as, um, street tires!) and secondly because the idea is to have fun and not necessarily go fast. If I really wanted to go fast, I'd buy a cheap formula car or something of that sort. No, this is for fun and fun alone.

So the tires I selected for my first round are Bridgestone S-04 Pole Position tires, sized 285/35-19. I selected these because they were cheap (well, relatively speaking, at any rate) and, simultaneously, seemed to get good reviews (as I recall, there's a Mustang guy who liked them a lot. I can dig up the link if you're interested).

I figure that for someone like myself, tires are just something to learn on. They matter a lot if what you're interested in is maximum grip, and different tires have different behavior at the limit, but at the end of the day, it's up to the driver to make the most of them. I expect that one can learn a lot no matter what tires the car is shod with. Since my car is also a daily driver, the tires I use are going to have to do reasonably well on the street, and these look like they might do a good job there too.

I had a student in a Miata earlier this year, some track time, but horrendously inconsistent through the different phases of the corner. Saturday he had V710s on the car, and I talked him into swapping back to the all-seasons for Sunday. Suddenly, now that he could hear his tires giving audible feedback, he was able to grasp "consistant loading," and worked that into his repertoire. At the end of the day, his lap timer ap was showing him less than .2 seconds off of saturday's pace... I understand not wanting to trash your street rubber, but if you're at or near novice-level, the sticky stuff will make you feel like a hero, but they're a lot harder to learn the limits with. Just for the sake of argument, you may want to look at CHEAP all-seasons in whatever size floats your boat, but certainly nothing more aggressive than a 200 treadwear tire to start with. Once you learn that, and gain an understanding of the balance and the feel of being on the edge, then go to sticky's, and work your speeds up to where you have that same feeling.

I think the tires I selected have a treadwear rating of 280.

I get people wanting to lap the track as quickly as possible. I expect to be doing some of that. But at the end of the day, what I'm really after is the driving experience itself. It's the journey, and not the results, that make it fun for me.

LOL!!! No. Using iRacing, I can't even get within 4 seconds of my real-world times!

Drat. Well, it's fun regardless, and there's probably at least some similarity between them, so hopefully all my "seat time" isn't a total loss.

 

[sheizasosay]

His set up was north of 7k I believe.

He claimed 5k in that thread, but it doesn't change your point because that's still a chunk of change. Damn I wish I had a shit load of money...

 

[SD_Stang]

Why do you need an aftermarket UCA so badly?

A few reasons the stock rubber bushing is very flexible my 2011 had a Full BMR suspension as well as Eibach's Pro's with Koni Sports and it felt good to me I just had issue with the axle wanting to come out during hard acceleration from a standing start at times.

After Reading further I'm guessing this may have been my Panhard Rod to being lined up correctly?

A few posts mentioned not adjusting the axle based on the body as the
body is not always on the car with perfect distance on either side.

Either way my new car has not had that problem but the stock struts/shocks are very poor and give the car a little bounce when going over bumps or road imperfections, there is wheel hop. Traction is decent (because I have my upgraded wheels and tires) but body roll in turns isn't what it was on the 11 as it's still all stock.

I'm not looking to add a few band aids to the stock suspension and get away for as cheap as I can go I'm actually looking to make the car as competitive as possible on roughly a 6k budget ( of course that may increase).

 

[SoundGuyDave]

SD, when you say competitive, exactly what format do you mean? Drag, Autocross or Open Track?

 

[Norm Peterson]

Which brings me to the title the Troque Arm, I've been told it isn't for Drag Racing yet does wonders for traction. I've seen cars such as the Grand National that was a great drag car use a Torque Arm.

First off, the Buick GN and Kirban's copy of its rear suspension are not torque arms, no matter what anybody tells you or what they look like or even what Kirban used to call them.

Geometrically those bars are non-adjustable single center-mounted ladder bars with the chassis side pivot location compromised and rubber mounted for the lowest reasonably achievable amount of geometric conflict with the G-body's OE LCAs. I used to have a '79 Malibu and had looked into using some of the Kirban parts to work up a 3-link/PHB rear suspension from.


Norm

 

[Norm Peterson]

Whisky, your point about momentum driving the car and how the car becomes more of a point and shoot vehicle . . .

Exactly the way I wanted that other discussion to play out - not by anybody telling you why it should be better for you in your specific instance but by something turning on the light bulb for you and giving you an "ah-ha" moment. Would "revelation" be too strong a word here? We good yet?

I tried to read that second Torque Arm thread and got to about page 15 or so before I had to stop. Some of the people who were posting on there were getting on my nerves

I was probably another one, though I do have a little hard driving experience with torque-arm'ed cars that might have been overlooked.


Norm

 

[Norm Peterson]

I can tell from street driving that I'm not impressed with the amount of apparent brake dive there is, but I am impressed with how it seems to handle on the street. I realize that isn't a huge indicator of what I can expect on the track, but it does count.

Keep in mind that about half of what you interpret as "nose dive" is actually rear lift as load transfers forward. Gratuitous picture included.

A few reasons the stock rubber bushing is very flexible my 2011 had a Full BMR suspension as well as Eibach's Pro's with Koni Sports and it felt good to me I just had issue with the axle wanting to come out during hard acceleration from a standing start at times.

I did start to review more on binding with the UCA and that the bushing seems to be the biggest pitfall.

Consider that the smoother you are (especially with the throttle) the less any issues concerning the UCA and its bushings will be. Nothing out on a road course is likely to ever hit the UCA like a drag-race standing start. Short of getting clear daylight under the rear tires going over a crest and coming down on the rev-limiter, anyway.


Norm