Are Adjustables Really Needed

[cm581978]

So you feel that the STR.T's would be a nice match with the K springs?

First, shocks are dampers. They do NOT limit travel they control the speed of it. So when it's said that Bilstein's will kee you from "having a chance hitting the bumpstops" that's not true, at all. More to the point Bilstein's are quite pricey for non-adjustable dampers, and elsewhere in this forum is a guy who had them and now has Koni's and I think the statement he made about the Bilstein's and the H&R's he had was the "car bounced like a pogo stick"

For once I'll agree with SkyRender on his statement that coil-overs are not magic, they are in fact just springs and dampers, that happen to give you ride height adjustability. Some might seem like magic on the higher end of things because more time and effort (and therefore cost) are put into developing the springs and dampers together. But that doesn't mean any kit of great, or right for every person.

FWIW, the FRPP dampers have lots of good rebound. But they ride like complete crap, like sledgehammers. You can do SOOOOO much better, even if you don't want to go to an adjustable damper. Koni STR.T's are great for the guy who wants a composed car, no adjustment, and doesn't want to spend $500+.

I'd still put Koni Sports on it. Hard to bear the value, or the proven record of Koni's. And while not as cheap as non-adjustables you get a shock that has a lifetime warranty (well supported too when required) and doesn't loose it's starch in 40k miles, because you can add more rebound damping in. And that is actually how the Koni adjustment started way back as a tuning tool for the wear old shocks had. Since things have gotten MUCH better in terms of oils, seals, and generally durability, and that adjustment also allows you to play with the response and feel of the car and that's pretty what it's used for these days.

 

[Random Asshole]

We've tested this "theory" with our 2013 Mustang GT (that had a big bar and camber plates and 295mm tires on it both times), back to back with OEM shocks/springs and then again with monotube coilovers plus real spring rates, and saw a solid 4 second drop on a 2 minute course. That's very real, and very significant. And not what you'd see with Konis and lowering springs. We've done those track tests as well and they tend to make more like a 1 second improvement.

Wait..care to expand on that?

Same car, same driver, same track and a 3 second difference between a "sport oriented" conventional setup vs. quality coilovers? Really?

 

[Vorshlag-Fair]

Wait..care to expand on that?

Same car, same driver, same track and a 3 second difference between a "sport oriented" conventional setup vs. quality coilovers? Really?

Yes, I covered this in more detail our build thread... and it was 4 seconds. I was pretty sure it would be a big drop, but I didn't expect THAT much of a drop.

http://www.vorshlag.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7806

Look for post # 232 and 233.



That same 2013 Mustang GT is for sale, but the ASTs were removed (and sold to someone on this board!) and is now on the stock shocks and lowering springs... the Brembo + brake cooling upgrades and front Eibach bar are also still there, and we've added a Whiteline adjustable panhard bar and rear LCA relocation brackets and 19x9" OEM wheels and tires.

 

[SoundGuyDave]

Carl, just a quick note: Terry did say "OEM shocks/springs" not "sport oriented." Versus OEM, I can easily believe a 4 second drop. I actually got more at Putnam swapping from Tokico/BMR to AST and Hypercoil. No, not same day, like Terry's test, but the weather was "similar."

We all know that tires make the biggest impact, but dampers come in second.

 

[cm581978]

Any other takers?

 

[NoTicket]

The Koni STR.t will ride better than than your frpp blue dampers. You do not need adjustables for your dd.

A more expensive option like the vorshlag bilsteins will be better than the Koni's for your amount of lowering. They will even be better than Koni Sports in terms of avoiding the bumpstops.

You certainly do not need adjustables.

Once again, in comparison to your near end of life FRPP non adjustable dampers, the Koni STR.t will be a significant improvement.

 

[jsimmonstx]

When you think you've spent enough money for a certain level of performance, you're usually wrong.

 

[Sam Strano]

I have to question the notion that a change in dampers will help you "avoid the bumpstops". Shocks and struts are dampers, not limiters. The springs are what hold the car up and deal with the mass. X weight compresses them Y far, etc. Shocks damp that movement, control how fast things happen, not how far the suspension moves.

Do you "NEED" adjustable shocks? Nope. For that matter not one of us "needs" to touch these cars, or for that matter needs a V-8 vs. a V-6, or a Mustang over a Focus, or a Fiesta... But we like nice things, that work well, right?

FRPP dampers, in non-adjustable form (like a 4.6 FR3 kit) ride like crap, absolute crap. You can do WAY better a few different ways. But I gotta say, if you like to not be stuck in a little box, adjustment is nice for tweaking the response and the feel of the car. And believe me, that goes a LONG way to making a lot of folks happy with the way their car drives and feels. See also how a lot of cars come with adjustable dampers, be it a Boss 302 with nothing fancy Tokico Illumina's to a 458 Italia with MR shocks. The fact is damping changes do a lot for the feel of the car. Yes, you can get non-adjustables and have them revalved and all that, but it's time and money consuming when there are pretty damned good adjustables out there for barely more the $600 a set.

 

[NoTicket]

I have to question the notion that a change in dampers will help you "avoid the bumpstops". Shocks and struts are dampers, not limiters. The springs are what hold the car up and deal with the mass. X weight compresses them Y far, etc. Shocks damp that movement, control how fast things happen, not how far the suspension moves.

The dampers I mentioned feature a shorter strut body with over an extra inch of space before the bumpstop will be hit (at least in front).

I have to say I'm not sure how or if they do anything in the back. I'm guessing no.

 

[Department Of Boost]

Your car rides like crap because of those junk K-springs.

 

[Vorshlag-Fair]

I have to question the notion that a change in dampers will help you "avoid the bumpstops". Shocks and struts are dampers, not limiters. The springs are what hold the car up and deal with the mass. X weight compresses them Y far, etc. Shocks damp that movement, control how fast things happen, not how far the suspension moves.

Sam, you are ignoring the one glaring problem with any OEM length strut: It comes down to a simple geometry limitation in the length of the struts/shocks when you use a lowering spring. The strut then VERY MUCH limits the amount of travel you have, which means it does become a limit to how far the suspension can travel in some directions. You know this - don't try to obscure the facts with "X weight and Y compression" double talk.

On the front of an S197 virtually ALL of the OEM style aftermarket struts are the same OEM length, including the FRPP stuff, the Konis you love so dearly, the Tokicos, etc. Lower the car 1.25" to 2" with the typical OEM style lowering springs and what changes on the dampers? All of that lowering amount comes at the cost of bump travel. So with a big enough bump, and up to 2" of stroke in the bump direction eaten up, it ends up in the bumpstops. Its not a hard concept to grasp, is it? Or are you just ignoring this on purpose?

With a dedicated coilover strut being 2" or more shorter than stock, the car can be lowered by this amount and not lose all of that bump travel. Yes, there will be less overall travel on a shortened strut or shock, but there will be much more usable bump travel at the lowered ride height most folks are looking for. Again, for F Stock/stock ride heights Sam is the man for your shock solutions. But if you are running lower than stock you need to really understand that anything that is an OEM style strut is going to cost you bump travel.

Of course the exception is the Bilstein StreetPro, which we have found has a strut housing that is 1.25" shorter than stock, so it more bump travel at a lowered ride height. It doesn't have adjustable valving, no, but it also isn't bouncing around on the bumpstops at every bump, which alters the spring rates and handling dramatically (and violently) when the car runs out of travel. For people that want the fun, lowered, semi-serious track set-up at $1499 all in (monotube inverted struts and shocks, Vorshlag camber plates, and your choice of lowering springs), fully assembled, it is hard to beat. And it ain't a twin tube...

The ideal solution for maximum travel at a lowered ride height is, again, a true coilover strut with real damping potential and an increase in spring rate of 200-500% over stock up front, and usually a milder rear spring rate upgrade (depending on usage/sport/driving style/tires used). The OEM style lowering springs all have a real increase of 10-40% over stock, which isn't enough to make up for the lack of bump travel on an OEM length strut, to keep them from bottoming out ALL. THE. TIME.

On the rear the limitation to lowering isn't normally the shock length, it is the bumpstop at the body to axle junction.

Most folks tend to shorten this bumpstop, or remove it altogether, to get additional bump travel at a lowered ride height. This can work after a stiffer spring upgrade also.

So, in summary - no, a valving change is going to make enough difference to keep you out of the bumpstops if you have a too tall strut with a lowered ride height. The solution is two things: stiffer spring rates (and I mean 200-500% stiffer!) and a shortened strut/shock body, with the appropriate length shafts. THAT is how you "stay out of the bumpstops" at a lowered ride height.

That's my two cents...

 

[fdjizm]

^love when you post it's always suspension pornz!

 

[cm581978]

Well then, what is a better spring while maintaining some sort of lowering?

Your car rides like crap because of those junk K-springs.

 

[fdjizm]

***** you drive in jersey and you want to lower your car? lol oh hai pothole + road construction.
I put bullitt springs in mine it lowered it just right and rides real nice!

 

[kcbrown]

***** you drive in jersey and you want to lower your car? lol oh hai pothole + road construction.

 

[cm581978]

Your shit looks like a 4x4

***** you drive in jersey and you want to lower your car? lol oh hai pothole + road construction.
I put bullitt springs in mine it lowered it just right and rides real nice!

 

[fdjizm]

Nah uh.... It's not so bad lol just because you scrape every driveway doesn't mean you win.

 

[ford20]

Yeah that .75 inch drop in the rear really helps the 4x4 stance out some.

BMR springs? They will drop you a decent amount and still ride nicely from my understanding. They aren't the springs I would get if you wanted to go corner carving though but for daily driving they should be ok. Also, I think there is a set in the for sale section right now.

 

[Whiskey11]

Yeah that .75 inch drop in the rear really helps the 4x4 stance out some.

BMR springs? They will drop you a decent amount and still ride nicely from my understanding. They aren't the springs I would get if you wanted to go corner carving though but for daily driving they should be ok. Also, I think there is a set in the for sale section right now.

I met this birdy one day who told me that BMR was producing some newer track oriented springs too...

 

[cm581978]

Just wanted to update this post. I went ahead and had installed the Koni Yellows, along with the FRPP P springs and its a night and day difference. I just need to play around with the shock settings for daily driving now.