Vorshlag 2011 Mustang 5.0 GT - track/autocross/street Project

[white86hatch]

Terry, with CAM/MAM not being a national class do you think people will still spend the money to build a car dedicated for it? The premise is a good one. I just don't think people who are trying to compete nationally in stx/stu will go down to cam.

 

[modernbeat]

Terry and I spoke about that. The precedent is that ANY SCCA class that starts as a regional-only class eventually turns into a National class. The exception has been the regional-only Improved Touring wheel-to-wheel racing classes. The SCCA Club Racing Board has staunchly refused to make it a National Class, referring back to the class charter which specifies it will remain a regional-only class.

History aside, I think CAM -could- be a success story for SCCA Solo as long as it remains a regional class.

If the SCCA wants something like CAM to have National Class status, then my recommendations are either to create an additional class with some CAM attributes, but many more restrictions. Alternatively, change the ST and SP allowances for stick-axle cars to give them some more leeway and class more of the older cars in both classes.

Neither of those suggestions will really capture the current class of Pro Touring cars, just like the Street Touring class did not really capture real street cars with common tuner modifications. But I don't see any other way for CAM to go National.

 

[dontlifttoshift]

I didn't understand why Rhodes was so twisted about CAM until I realized that it killed STP. Both classes would have been good for us but only STP has any sort of staying power. Like I said before, the pro touring crowd isn't intersted in an all day event for 6 runs when they can go elsewhere and get 20 or more.

My 18x11 Forgestars showed up yesterday, they are getting 295 rivals mounted up and will be ready for the first SCCA event this weekend. THANKS!!

Why Kyle Tucker doesn't just install a new clutch before every event, I'll never understand. Nobody goes through more clutches than him.

Great write up as always.

 

[modernbeat]

I didn't understand why Rhodes was so twisted about CAM until I realized that it killed STP...

That is also MY beef with CAM. I'm not in favor of STP, but I am in favor of allowing more tire in STU for the entire class (if they can fit it under their fenders) and/or more tire for solid-axle cars AND more suspension allowances for solid-axle cars like rear relocation brackets.

Instead, now anytime someone says they would like more Ponycar allowances in ST/SP they are being told to just go run in CAM. So the pressure to make the late model Mustangs and other modern-ish stick axle cars competitive is off. And if they aren't going to be competitive, serious competitors will not prep them for the class. And if they aren't prepped and run, then there is no basis for the SCCA to make allowances for them to level the playing field. It's a Catch-22.

 

[csamsh]

All of this. My gripe as well. I would much rather run STU, my car as it sits is not competitive in STU, but is illegal. Instead of being upset, I run CAM, and no no one hears about it.

I know Oklahoma isn't that big of an autox region, but our most popular cars are camaros and mustangs.

That is also MY beef with CAM. I'm not in favor of STP, but I am in favor of allowing more tire in STU for the entire class (if they can fit it under their fenders) and/or more tire for solid-axle cars AND more suspension allowances for solid-axle cars like rear relocation brackets.

Instead, now anytime someone says they would like more Ponycar allowances in ST/SP they are being told to just go run in CAM. So the pressure to make the late model Mustangs and other modern-ish stick axle cars competitive is off. And if they aren't going to be competitive, serious competitors will not prep them for the class. And if they aren't prepped and run, then there is no basis for the SCCA to make allowances for them to level the playing field. It's a Catch-22.

 

[dontlifttoshift]

Jason, what didn't you like about STP?

 

[csamsh]

Jason, what didn't you like about STP?

If you ask me, it isn't necessary. The SCCA could make allowances for heavy/solid axle/pony cars and they could be competitive in STU.

 

[modernbeat]

Jason, what didn't you like about STP?

If you ask me, it isn't necessary. The SCCA could make allowances for heavy/solid axle/pony cars and they could be competitive in STU.

Pretty much what he said. No need to make more classes and dilute variety in what could be a popular class. I think the inclusion of the Corvettes in STU scare a lot of people. The Z-car isn't scaring as many people, but it should. The lack of realistic solid-axle allowances is the worst though. But the worst is the dismissive attitude of the SEB/AC members towards the late model Mustangs (Fox/SN95/S197).

 

[Whiskey11]

Pretty much what he said. No need to make more classes and dilute variety in what could be a popular class. I think the inclusion of the Corvettes in STU scare a lot of people. The Z-car isn't scaring as many people, but it should. The lack of realistic solid-axle allowances is the worst though. But the worst is the dismissive attitude of the SEB/AC members towards the late model Mustangs (Fox/SN95/S197).

Brian Peters by 1.7XX seconds should scare people... that was the San Diego National Tour... the 350Z is potent in the right hands and it is FUCKING with the boost buggies. I imagine that there will be some allowances for boost buggies in the next year's submission to the BOD if he continues to dominate the class.

I do agree with the dismissive attitude too, and it's not just them, it seems like the whole community is pretty apprehensive about the whole deal.

 

[white86hatch]

Each time this discussion is brought up it ends the same for me. Frustration and then indifference. I'm stuck in MAM or SM because of basic suspension upgrades. Makes sense....

 

[Sky Render]

Each time this discussion is brought up it ends the same for me. Frustration and then indifference. I'm stuck in MAM or SM because of basic suspension upgrades. Makes sense....

I guess they figure the pony car guys should stick to racing in straight lines.

 

[claudermilk]

I recall back in the '90s when I was racing my Probe in GS that the FS ranks were well-stocked. Today? Not so much. When I'm running, I may be the only S197 there if the '12 Boss guy doesn't show up. Other than that? Nobody. It seems SCCA has pretty successfully chased the pony cars away.

Now that I'm throwing some suspension mods at the car, I will be out of FS (or the combined S1 regional) and into STU. I may look at CAM just because. Really I'm in Terry's "IDGAF" class since I've resigned myself to not being anywhere near competitive in Solo II--I am out there just to play with the car & have fun now.

 

[Boaisy]

I'm probably the only local pony car that races at our SCCA chapter, and that is if I even go at all. Participation was already low with local board changes, and the classing towards pony cars has hurt it even more. I was worried about how the classing would turn out this year, and I can't say I'm surprised. The other local members thought it was going to be an amazing idea, but it seems it has only hurt them even more.

 

[Sky Render]

The Mustang is one of the most popular sports cars sold in America. I really don't understand why the SCCA isn't bending over backwards to get those people interested in racing with them.

 

[csamsh]

The Mustang is one of the most popular sports cars sold in America. I really don't understand why the SCCA isn't bending over backwards to get those people interested in racing with them.

Even with the lack of support we get, S197's are some of the most popular vehicles to autox in the TX/OK area. How much of that is due to Terry's presence here, I'm not sure, but they turn up in droves for our events.

OKC autox, though small, typically has about 20-25% of its entries be Camaros or Mustangs in the last year.

 

[Vorshlag-Fair]

The Mustang is one of the most popular sports cars sold in America. I really don't understand why the SCCA isn't bending over backwards to get those people interested in racing with them.

Exactly! You go to any track day and what is the most popular car in attendance? Mustangs. We just did the HPDE at TWS with TrackGuys and half the cars were Mustangs! But at an SCCA autocross? A handful, at best. They have chased them away with their indifference and terrible classing.



I had a guy come into Vorshlag today with an E46 M3, needed all sorts of maintenance, and he wanted to do track events. After looked at a few S197s in our shop for service or track prep and he was salivating. We showed him the worthwhile suspension upgrades for this car and he was ready to buy one in a BAD way. I sent him to Five Star Ford and I won't be surprised if he doesn't end up with one this week. The S197 is the modern day Track Rat bargain, and after a few changes it is damned fun and damned reliable.

It could also be just as popular for autocross, if the one club that caters to this sport would just give two shits about pony cars...

Should we kick off a letter writing campaign asking the SCCA for STP(ony Car) again? Or more sensible mods in STU or STX? Head on over to this thread and let's discuss....

S197 Mustang in SCCA Solo: STX vs STU vs ESP? - http://www.s197forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=99754

 

[claudermilk]

Exactly! You go to any track day and what is the most popular car in attendance? Mustangs. We just did the HPDE at TWS with TrackGuys and half the cars were Mustangs! But at an SCCA autocross? A handful, at best. They have chased them away with their indifference and terrible classing.

This! I even have good anecdotal evidence. Goodguys vs Solo II. At the Del Mar event just last week, the All-American Sunday event on Sunday (duh), the most popular car BY FAR was the S197. AAS shows 21 drivers and 10 of them in Mustangs (a couple were 2 driver cars). Nearly 50%. Contrast that with pretty much every CalClub Solo II event I've attended since buying the car. There is my car, a 2012 Boss 302, and very occasionally a Foxbody. That's it. The interest & desire is there, but like Terry said, the Mustang crowd has effectively been chased out of Solo II. I don't get why--that would be a huge boost to SCCA membership & participation.

I don't do club racing, but I wonder if they are seeing the same thing & everyone running to NASA and the American Iron classes.

 

[Sky Render]

I run with a club that isn't SCCA. We don't really have "classes." I was one of the first people to show up with an S197, and now several other people with Mustangs regularly come to our events. But we don't have rules that handicap them.

 

[Jucostud]

I've run with 3 autocross groups, and the s197 attendance was by far the worst at scca. Of course part of the reason is scca cost the most and only gives you 4 runs. ER and NTAX gives you 8 and are cheaper.

 

[Boaisy]

I've run with 3 autocross groups, and the s197 attendance was by far the worst at scca. Of course part of the reason is scca cost the most and only gives you 4 runs. ER and NTAX gives you 8 and are cheaper.

That is more based on the rent time allotted for the tracks, and level of participation. Our local SCCA (since it barely gets more than 12 people to show) runs 8 runs in an autocross day, while NASA (avg. 25-30 people) gets 6 runs in an autocross day. The local SCCA guys don't understand why people move to NASA because most of them only think about # of runs per dollar, but what they fail to see is the level of competition from both organizations. Yeah you can run more in a day with SCCA, but what is the point if there is nobody to race against?

At least here with NASA, there is always 3-6 Mustangs. They may not be in the same class, but there is still enough competition for them in each class to actually come back.