Manley H Beam rods side clearance

[swflastang05]

I think this is tech.. anyway I mocked up my crank and rods to check the side clearances and found them to be .024, .023, .026, .027. Is this acceptable? They're 5.850 H beam stroker rods w/ARP 2000 bolts torqued to 60lbs w/oil - which is Manley torque spec. I ask because I bought these rods used and found some "shiny" areas on a couple of the side surfaces that appear to be wear. I called Manley and they recommend .010 - .020 so I wasn't sure if a few thousands difference matters?

 

[BeachMonkey100]

for my likings that's a little much, ford spec is .006-.02". I had my machine shop set my clearances up between .011-.014. I haven't mocked my stuff up yet to let you know exactly what it was. I am sure someone with a little more knowledge on oil wedging and such will chime in.

 

[Dubstep Shep]

Sean Hyland has the spec for the Manley H beams at 0.011 in.

 

[hamish]

https://www.google.ca/url?q=http://...IQFjAB&usg=AFQjCNHTAR3y8oMwo28bq5M5BiHq-qB7ug

 

[swflastang05]

I remeasured using the "two feeler gauges method" and the results were a little better but still not really what I wanted: .021, .024, .022, .020. At least they're within 5.4l spec now. I understand there's nothing that can be done when there's too much clearance. Did I get screwed on these rods? Am I gonna have to order new ones? The only other thing is I mocked this up without the crank being torqued down into the mains in the block, more of a bench top mockup. My machinist said that doesn't matter, is he wrong?

 

[tmcolegr]

http://s197forum.com/forum/showpost.php?p=525971&postcount=175

 

[Dubstep Shep]

It's surprising to me to see how much torquing everything down in a motor can change measurements.

Will it? I wouldn't think so, but I can't say for sure.

 

[BruceH]

My motors have had from .011-.015". Some builders will put more clearance for heavier weight oil or because that's just how they do it. I suppose you could see it the bearings are also a little overspec. Provided all clearances were at the high side or a little over I'd probably run a thicker oil. Do you know what the main and rod clearances are? How about the cam journals?

How are you checking the clearance?

 

[swflastang05]

IDK the main clearances yet, haven't had the block align honed yet. The rod journals are all b/w .0020 - .0021. IDK cam journals yet either. To check the side clearance I used the 2 feeler gauge method, the same thickness on opposite sides of the radius to ensure the rod isn't cockeyed. I just mic'd all the rods @ the center of the cap and found there's a pretty wide range on half of them:

1 - .942
2 - .939
3 - .939
4 - .941
5 - 930
6 - .931
7 - .928
8 - .930

I wonder of I switch the pairs around if I can take up some of the gap and get them within spec. I'll have to mess around with this more to find out, otherwise I'll have to bite the bullet and order a new set and try to get the guy I bought these from to understand the issue.

 

[BruceH]

IMO those sizes aren't acceptable. Unless he disclosed it prior to the sale I'd ask for my money back and start over. There are plenty of 5.850 modular rods out there that will work.

IDK the main clearances yet, haven't had the block align honed yet. The rod journals are all b/w .0020 - .0021. IDK cam journals yet either. To check the side clearance I used the 2 feeler gauge method, the same thickness on opposite sides of the radius to ensure the rod isn't cockeyed. I just mic'd all the rods @ the center of the cap and found there's a pretty wide range on half of them:

1 - .942
2 - .939
3 - .939
4 - .941
5 - 930
6 - .931
7 - .928
8 - .930

I wonder of I switch the pairs around if I can take up some of the gap and get them within spec. I'll have to mess around with this more to find out, otherwise I'll have to bite the bullet and order a new set and try to get the guy I bought these from to understand the issue.

 

[85GT 7.0]

Rods

Send them to me I will take those "junk" rods off your hands

 

[swflastang05]

IMO those sizes aren't acceptable. Unless he disclosed it prior to the sale I'd ask for my money back and start over. There are plenty of 5.850 modular rods out there that will work.

Yea, I agree. Not worth taking the chance.

 

[swflastang05]

Send them to me I will take those "junk" rods off your hands

You can have them for the $400 I spent on them! No problem!

 

[05moneypit]

Not that this solves your problem but it may shed a little light on it.

The first stroker motor I did was with a Kellogg 3.75 stroke crank, Manley rods and the side clearences were all between .011 and .013 with the rods right out of the box. Next motor I went to a 3.800 stroke KP crank with the exact same rods and all the side clearences were between .003 and .005 so I ground .004 off all 8 rods. (.002 on both sides of the rod)

It looks to me like the previous owner/engine builder had the same issue but chose to only grind 4 of the rods. Thats why you have 4 thick ones and 4 thinner ones.

Manley rods should be .940 wide on the big end out of the box.

Were the rods numbered when you got them?

 

[swflastang05]

Not that this solves your problem but it may shed a little light on it.

The first stroker motor I did was with a Kellogg 3.75 stroke crank, Manley rods and the side clearences were all between .011 and .013 with the rods right out of the box. Next motor I went to a 3.800 stroke KP crank with the exact same rods and all the side clearences were between .003 and .005 so I ground .004 off all 8 rods. (.002 on both sides of the rod)

It looks to me like the previous owner/engine builder had the same issue but chose to only grind 4 of the rods. Thats why you have 4 thick ones and 4 thinner ones.

Manley rods should be .940 wide on the big end out of the box.

Were the rods numbered when you got them?

^^Yes they were. It's all the back rods that are thinner, 5,6,7,8. I talked to the guy I got them form and he insists he had the rods checked by a reputable machine shop before he sold them and there's no way anything is wrong with them.

 

[swflastang05]

Here's some pics, it's hard to see but look at the first pic at the outer surface of around the bearing at the big end, you can see the machined lines cut into the steel and how this rod appears to maintain its original spec. Then look at the second & third pic in the same area you can see there are no machine lines, but rather groves cut into the rod end circular, around the bearing. This surface is also very smooth and shiny compared to the other, and even had a lip along the outer edge like it was mushroomed over.

 

[BruceH]

^^Yes they were. It's all the back rods that are thinner, 5,6,7,8. I talked to the guy I got them form and he insists he had the rods checked by a reputable machine shop before he sold them and there's no way anything is wrong with them.

Then he shouldn't have any problem taking them back.

What do you think happened? Some were clearanced and subsequently rubbed when the oil wouldn't hold them apart?

Or maybe they were clearanced after they had rubbed? The 3.8 kellog/saleen cranks were known to have very tight side rod clearance. The rumor is that the ones that were out of spec were put on a shelf or similar place and were bought with the other parts when saleen went bankrupt.

Material only has to come off one from a pair. Hence only 4 are clearanced.

 

[05moneypit]

^^Yes they were. It's all the back rods that are thinner, 5,6,7,8. I talked to the guy I got them form and he insists he had the rods checked by a reputable machine shop before he sold them and there's no way anything is wrong with them.

5,6,7,8 are not the back rods, those are all on bank 2 (drivers side) rods pairs on the crankpin are 1+5, 2+6, 3+7, 4+8.

The shop ground just one bank of the rods to get the clearence.

Match your rods up like I stated above and see what the clearence is.

 

[swflastang05]

Then he shouldn't have any problem taking them back.

What do you think happened? Some were clearanced and subsequently rubbed when the oil wouldn't hold them apart?

Or maybe they were clearanced after they had rubbed? The 3.8 kellog/saleen cranks were known to have very tight side rod clearance. The rumor is that the ones that were out of spec were put on a shelf or similar place and were bought with the other parts when saleen went bankrupt.

Material only has to come off one from a pair. Hence only 4 are clearanced.

I think there was something that made them rub excessively, which resulted in material being removed from those 4 rods. IDK what but something made them rub like that. When I first talked to the guy he was saying something about having a 3.800 stroker crank too, and he even had a set of 3.800 stroker rods far sale at the same tome so that could be it. In any case I just mocked up the crank again but only with "good" rods and they all fell perfectly into spec at .010 - .011 on all four journals. That confirms my crank is fine and its these rods that have an issue. I'm ordering a new set tomorrow from JPC, hopefully I can get this guy to take these used rods back, otherwise I guess I have 8 matching fishing weights! (and got screwed again!)

 

[swflastang05]

5,6,7,8 are not the back rods, those are all on bank 2 (drivers side) rods pairs on the crankpin are 1+5, 2+6, 3+7, 4+8.

The shop ground just one bank of the rods to get the clearence.

Match your rods up like I stated above and see what the clearence is.

That's what I meant by "back" because they are behind the 1, 2, 3, & 4 rods in their respective journals. Sorry for any confusion..