Fuel's Winter Project: Build It Before It Blows

[JoshK]

Well we will see if I would or will go for that number or not, but it seems like people don't start talking or giving good hard advice until you put out a number. I only spin to 6300-6500rpm, no need to spin higher as the power isn't up there. I could add an ATI instead of the crank.

Also. Jason, not sure on the turbo yet. I have had great experience with my precision but them seem to be much more pricey than the comp. It will be a billet wheel journal bearing turbo again though.

I kind of take pride in trying to be the first to try something new. I am a long way from having a lot of expendable income, but am okay with living with my decisions. Hell, I have pushed my current setup pretty hard already, and Jeremy is right there with me on the stock crank. I also haven't done any of the quoted necessary stuff, ei billet gears, arp hardware.

 

[BruceH]

a billet crank would be nice! I was making a tad over 600 on 11 psi with my old on 3 setup so I have no doubt I should easily make 800 wheel on the new kit. But honestly, Bruce, you can't in good conscience tell Josh that a cast crank ould be ok for 1000 hp.

I've never said that. IMO everything would have to be right for a 1000rwhp motor to survive for very long. I've had 699 and it was too much so I'm somewhat baffled that people want 1000 but we don't all think the same.

I was answering your statement about building a serious motor without a forged crank. IMO all too often things are done that aren't necessary just because that's what people did with small block chevys. I respect your thoughts on the subject. All I'm doing is giving a different viewpoint. I've done a whole lot of things that aren't supposed to be done during my Mustang ownership. Maybe lucky, maybe just looking at things differently.

 

[JoshK]

^Well I haven't followed right behind you bruce and done most everything with my car based on your experience, so if you are only lucky then I guess that rubbed off on my too

 

[JoshK]

Now, WILL SOMEONE TELL ME WHAT TO DO HERE

 

[go302]

What do you plan to do to get traction when you have more power?

 

[JoshK]

I want the dyno sheet. Power back down when I go to the track to sort out the learning curve.

 

[go302]

I've never said that. IMO everything would have to be right for a 1000rwhp motor to survive for very long. I've had 699 and it was too much so I'm somewhat baffled that people want 1000 but we don't all think the same.

I was answering your statement about building a serious motor without a forged crank. IMO all too often things are done that aren't necessary just because that's what people did with small block chevys. I respect your thoughts on the subject. All I'm doing is giving a different viewpoint. I've done a whole lot of things that aren't supposed to be done during my Mustang ownership. Maybe lucky, maybe just looking at things differently.

Sorry, just thought you were implying that a forged crank wasn't superior to a cast steel crank. My only point was if I was building a motor it would have a forged crank from the get go because eventually you will want more than the stock crank can handle.

 

[go302]

I want the dyno sheet. Power back down when I go to the track to sort out the learning curve.

Lmao same here. I give zero fucks about drag racing or what my car runs. I do care about going down to texas 2k and playing with some nasty supras and vettes. I know I know, roll racing is for queers.

 

[BruceH]

Sorry, just thought you were implying that a forged crank wasn't superior to a cast steel crank. My only point was if I was building a motor it would have a forged crank from the get go because eventually you will want more than the stock crank can handle.

I was trying to say that we don't know for sure. Nobody has done a test for failure. Our attempts on the forum haven't worked, lol. I just don't automatically do what everyone else does without some thought behind it.

Who knows, maybe the cast crank will take more abuse because it isn't as hard as the forged one? I'm not saying that's the case, just thinking about things out loud.

We do know that the Kellogg forged crank is good for just about anything that can be made with a streetable 4.6. It would be the safest and probably best bet for a big build. I'm running a forged crank for the first time and I don't think it's hurt anything, lol. Maybe slowed the revs down a tad, can't tell.

I'd take the stock crank over a cast eagle.

 

[JoshK]

So maybe I test it further than anyone has before? If it breaks I take a year off and come out stronger on the other side lol

 

[JoshK]

Who has the best price on an ati?

 

[JeremyH]

Best I found was modmax for the ati.

 

[JoshK]

Wow, $390. Is it really worth that much!

 

[JeremyH]

I've never said that. IMO everything would have to be right for a 1000rwhp motor to survive for very long. I've had 699 and it was too much so I'm somewhat baffled that people want 1000 but we don't all think the same.

I was answering your statement about building a serious motor without a forged crank. IMO all too often things are done that aren't necessary just because that's what people did with small block chevys. I respect your thoughts on the subject. All I'm doing is giving a different viewpoint. I've done a whole lot of things that aren't supposed to be done during my Mustang ownership. Maybe lucky, maybe just looking at things differently.

Sorry, just thought you were implying that a forged crank wasn't superior to a cast steel crank. My only point was if I was building a motor it would have a forged crank from the get go because eventually you will want more than the stock crank can handle.

Your aren't going to break a stock cast steel crank, its just not going to happen, I rev to 7k as well.

People hear forged and assume its always stronger due to how its made and yes the steel itself has the potential to be stronger.
The cast steel crank is significantly lighter, never weighed them but have held both in my hands and compared them. The cast one also had thicker webs, the lighter cast crank will have less harmonics and will support higher rpm, hence no need for extra counter balances like the heavier forged one has, also they built the webbing smaller in areas on the forged crank likely due to the heavier material. You will have more harmonics in the heavier crank in the upper rpms. I thinks its an apples to apples comparison, they both work and I can't say one is better than other as far as actual strength.

Liked mentioned the manley h beams are rated to 700hp and will support 1000-1200hp all day long. Do any manufacturers put hp limits on cranks anyway?

 

[JeremyH]

Wow, $390. Is it really worth that much!

Nice, that's cheaper than I remember paying I paid like $425 iirc. Its the most affordable of the well made ones. Some are in $500-700 range.

In my case I wanted to get rid of the under drive crank pulley and I like to rev so it was a logical choice to get a top shelf damper. I think its something often overlooked in the scheme of the things when it comes to the rotating assembly. I also bought an arp crank bolt when it went on. Only thing I have upgrade is the flywheel bolts to arp yet. Next time I'm in there messing with the clutch I will throw some in.

 

[BruceH]

Wow, $390. Is it really worth that much!

Sometimes you will find 6 rib Innovators West pulleys for a good price. What happens is people with superchargers buy them and later realize they should of bought the 8 rib. I'd even go with a 10% od if the price is right. It's not going to take any noticeable amount of power from you.

My current build has a Summit SFI balancer. I think it's the same one that Trick Flow uses. I've also used Professional Products SFI and it worked well too. SFI just means it probably won't explode or come apart at higher rpms.

The best balancer I've had was an IW. I believe the ATI is just as good and it comes as separate pieces so you can keep the hub on and swap the shell if needed.

 

[go302]

Your aren't going to break a stock cast steel crank, its just not going to happen, I rev to 7k as well.

People hear forged and assume its always stronger due to how its made and yes the steel itself has the potential to be stronger.
The cast steel crank is significantly lighter, never weighed them but have held both in my hands and compared them. The cast one also had thicker webs, the lighter cast crank will have less harmonics and will support higher rpm, hence no need for extra counter balances like the heavier forged one has, also they built the webbing smaller in areas on the forged crank likely due to the heavier material. You will have more harmonics in the heavier crank in the upper rpms. I thinks its an apples to apples comparison, they both work and I can't say one is better than other as far as actual strength.

Liked mentioned the manley h beams are rated to 700hp and will support 1000-1200hp all day long. Do any manufacturers put hp limits on cranks anyway?

It has thicker webs because it's less dense. You guys are crazy if you think a cast crank will be on par with a forged crank.

 

[BruceH]

Sometimes you will find 6 rib Innovators West pulleys for a good price. What happens is people with superchargers buy them and later realize they should of bought the 8 rib. I'd even go with a 10% od if the price is right. It's not going to take any noticeable amount of power from you.

My current build has a Summit SFI balancer. I think it's the same one that Trick Flow uses. I've also used Professional Products SFI and it worked well too. SFI just means it probably won't explode or come apart at higher rpms.

The best balancer I've had was an IW. I believe the ATI is just as good and it comes as separate pieces so you can keep the hub on and swap the shell if needed.

Check ebay. There is a 10% od 6 rib IW for $325.

 

[BruceH]

It has thicker webs because it's less dense. You guys are crazy if you think a cast crank will be on par with a forged crank.

The cast cranks (me, Josh, Jeremy) have all done very well with higher hp numbers. Higher to me means high 600's to mid 700's. Survived clutch dumps, many track passes, plus normal driving. Those are levels that kill GT500 motors.

What would you expect? Does it make any sense to spend $1000 on a new forged crank when the cast one will fit the bill? BTW new forged cranks are from $800 to $1100. Kellogg doesn't make them anymore. They sold the tooling to Lunati. Eagles are in the $800 range while Lunati goes for over $1000.

The biggest thing to me would be having 33% more fastening with the 8 bolt vs 6 bolt. Like I said earlier I would probably go forged with something built for big power like 1000. Still though, it would be interesting to find out.

 

[JeremyH]

I'm pretty content with 600rwhp on the street, it is fun to hit it on the highway on the higher boost from time to time. lol