4:10 for me?

[Random Asshole]

I've tried searching around, so my apologies if this has been covered somewhere:

I'm going to be running high speed autocross competitions this summer. Mostly at blackhawk farms (the video below) The s197 GTs are categorized with some pretty fierce competition. My most common threat will be STI's and EVOs. I know I have room for improvement as far as driving, but looking at their typical lap times, I honestly don't see me beating them stock for stock. (plus they tune their shit and tech inspectors can't tell)

My car is currently stock aside from brake ducts. I have an eibach pro system plus still in the boxes. The thing is, once I have the suspension kit installed, I'm already bumped up into a "prepared" level racing against other prepped cars. So I have to be wise with each mod. Pretty much anything you do to your car is worth "a point." examples, cold air kit = 1 point, exhaust 1 = point, supercharger = 4 points, etc, etc. stock maxes at 2, prepared at 7, and so on.

If you can tell in the vid, I'm lugging the car in 3rd through the corners because I light up the tires I try second. Fourth is only on the straights. (and yes, those are my brakes crying for mercy before corner entries)

The feedback I'm looking for is whether I should consider a 4:10?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=epBYcVhcSDw

**Please forgive sound quality. First time use of the camera, it was was set to "low" and I didn't remove any gaskets in the waterproof case (GoHero Pro) so I used a program to amplify sound 1000%. It didn't mention anything about an unsightly watermark. You can thank YouTube for fucking up the video quality.

 

[Random Asshole]

I'm currently running 3:55s btw

 

[SoundGuyDave]

You're running with Council, right? Based on your comments, I suspect you're shooting for the XS run class, with two allowable mod points...

While a lot of this comes down to philosophy, in essence you're building a "race car" to compete in this specific class, so your best bet is to build to the max allowable for the rules...

You are allowed to change wheels for no points, assuming that you keep to the stock diameter and width (17x8), but the weight and offset appear to be unrestricted. Go as light as you can, and change from the stock +45 offset to a +36 offset to increase your track width a little bit. The SN95 wheels will work beautifully. Take advantage of ALL of the no-points mods you can, like removing anything that isn't bolted down (Shaker 1000 sub and amp, spare tire, etc. glove box and console contents).

After that, run the rules to the limits. Figure out where to spend the two points you're allowed, and how they will have the largest impact. Personally, I wouldn't touch the suspension unless you're going all-in, which you can't do and stay in the stock class. Brakes: Carbotech or Hawk pads, stainless lines, ducts are all no-point mods, and will allow you to go a LOT deeper for a LOT longer. You are allowed any tire that fits on the stock rim, as long as it has 1/32" tread and a wear rating of 140 or higher. Something like the Bridgestone Potenza RE070 fits the bill perfectly. They're available in limited sizes (225/45-17 is the best bet there) but keep looking and see if you can find a 140 tire with a 235 or 245 width. 255 is a hair too wide to fit comfortably on an 8" rim. 35-40 profiles will also shorten the tire height, which effectively increases your gear ratio a touch. So, you have some killer 17lb wheels, with sticky rubber, and have increased your track width about 1-1/2", and so far you haven't spent one point.

After that, I would grab a CAI and tuner, as that will arguably be your best bang for the one-point assessment. You'll need the tuner to compensate for the CAI, as well as for the tire size adjustment. The fact that it can add 20+ horses at the wheels with MUCH better throttle response AND a higher rev limit is just icing on the cake. And no, you can't tell that there's a tune in the car with the Mustang any more than you can with the Evo.

For your last point, I would think about camber plates, like the Maximum Motorsports pieces. Get your car aligned for street duty with the plates all the way out (you'll need crash bolts for the strut-to-knuckle joints), and when you get to the track, dump the plates all the way in. That will give you another two degrees of negative camber, as well as push your toe out a touch, which is all to the good for track duty handling.

The gear would be nice, but I don't think that you'll get the results you will with the intake/tune and the camber adjustments.

You ought to come out and play with us in NASA sometime! We run a similar style of competition to the council HSAX, but you'll get more track time... You'll see some familiar faces out there, as well. Biagi, Marqhart, Dudek are all running with us as well. PM me if you're thinking about it, and I'll give you the inside scoop.

 

[Random Asshole]

You're running with Council, right? Based on your comments, I suspect you're shooting for the XS run class, with two allowable mod points...

While a lot of this comes down to philosophy, in essence you're building a "race car" to compete in this specific class, so your best bet is to build to the max allowable for the rules...

You are allowed to change wheels for no points, assuming that you keep to the stock diameter and width (17x8), but the weight and offset appear to be unrestricted. Go as light as you can, and change from the stock +45 offset to a +36 offset to increase your track width a little bit. The SN95 wheels will work beautifully. Take advantage of ALL of the no-points mods you can, like removing anything that isn't bolted down (Shaker 1000 sub and amp, spare tire, etc. glove box and console contents).

After that, run the rules to the limits. Figure out where to spend the two points you're allowed, and how they will have the largest impact. Personally, I wouldn't touch the suspension unless you're going all-in, which you can't do and stay in the stock class. Brakes: Carbotech or Hawk pads, stainless lines, ducts are all no-point mods, and will allow you to go a LOT deeper for a LOT longer. You are allowed any tire that fits on the stock rim, as long as it has 1/32" tread and a wear rating of 140 or higher. Something like the Bridgestone Potenza RE070 fits the bill perfectly. They're available in limited sizes (225/45-17 is the best bet there) but keep looking and see if you can find a 140 tire with a 235 or 245 width. 255 is a hair too wide to fit comfortably on an 8" rim. 35-40 profiles will also shorten the tire height, which effectively increases your gear ratio a touch. So, you have some killer 17lb wheels, with sticky rubber, and have increased your track width about 1-1/2", and so far you haven't spent one point.

After that, I would grab a CAI and tuner, as that will arguably be your best bang for the one-point assessment. You'll need the tuner to compensate for the CAI, as well as for the tire size adjustment. The fact that it can add 20+ horses at the wheels with MUCH better throttle response AND a higher rev limit is just icing on the cake. And no, you can't tell that there's a tune in the car with the Mustang any more than you can with the Evo.

For your last point, I would think about camber plates, like the Maximum Motorsports pieces. Get your car aligned for street duty with the plates all the way out (you'll need crash bolts for the strut-to-knuckle joints), and when you get to the track, dump the plates all the way in. That will give you another two degrees of negative camber, as well as push your toe out a touch, which is all to the good for track duty handling.

The gear would be nice, but I don't think that you'll get the results you will with the intake/tune and the camber adjustments.

You ought to come out and play with us in NASA sometime! We run a similar style of competition to the council HSAX, but you'll get more track time... You'll see some familiar faces out there, as well. Biagi, Marqhart, Dudek are all running with us as well. PM me if you're thinking about it, and I'll give you the inside scoop.

Yeah, I'm running with the NSCC. Definitely need to do the little things like you mentioned, but I figured the suspension I bought is going to knock me out of stock anyways, so a gear would give me some extra grunt. I suppose I could sell the kit, and use it for some track rims and tires. I just wanna even the board as far as competing with those turbocharged chinese take-out boxes.

I would love to run in NASA, but that's a little pricey for me right now. One thing that sets me back is that I destroy my brakes every time I hit the track (even with carbotech pads). Seriously, I made a "U" out of the backing plates and even melted the dust boots on my front calipers' pistons. I've used carbotech, they're good. Pricey, but they work. (and didn't last more than a track day) All bent and cracked up. Prolly was running the wrong compound. It might have been an AX pad, and not a track day pad.

My instructor who was with me at blackhawk during my school sessions runs in NASA. You might have seen him at the Road America event. He was in a Silver Cobalt SS/TC.

 

[SoundGuyDave]

Yeah, I'm running with the NSCC. Definitely need to do the little things like you mentioned, but I figured the suspension I bought is going to knock me out of stock anyways, so a gear would give me some extra grunt. I suppose I could sell the kit, and use it for some track rims and tires. I just wanna even the board as far as competing with those turbocharged chinese take-out boxes.

"Chinese take-out boxes" Gawd, I like that... LOL!! Honestly, where the rubber hits the road is where all the action is, literally. The best dampers, springs and bars in the world are 0% efficient if the contact patch isn't there. A solid "stock" car is the foundation for either a prepared or modified ride anyway, so that would be the way I would go...

I would love to run in NASA, but that's a little pricey for me right now. One thing that sets me back is that I destroy my brakes every time I hit the track (even with carbotech pads). Seriously, I made a "U" out of the backing plates and even melted the dust boots on my front calipers' pistons. I've used carbotech, they're good. Pricey, but they work. (and didn't last more than a track day) All bent and cracked up. Prolly was running the wrong compound. It might have been an AX pad, and not a track day pad.

In terms of absolute cash outlay, yes, NASA is pricier than the Council events, but you get well over an hour of track time per day, and for $300 for the weekend (Putnam Park), it's really not that steep, especially given the "extras" that are there, like instructors available virtually upon request for no extra cost, etc. Not bagging on Council at all, I'm planning on hitting a couple of their events this year, but NASA is awfully good.

Brakes: Something is definitely off with your brake situation. Autocross pads are really not up to the stresses of road-course action, as you well know. They will give you instant grab, but they won't handle the heat generated from the longer-duration braking events, particularly when you combine that with longer-than-average runs. I've hit on a pretty good pad package... For shorter, lower speed tracks, like Gingerman, Blackhawk and Putnam (~120 mph straights) I've been using Carbotech XP10 up front, and XP8 in back, and for the bigger tracks, like Road America, XP12 up front and XP10 in back. Stock rotors, Steeda stainless lines, Quantum Motorsports ducts, Motul RBF600 fluid. Ducts are critical for the fronts. Since I ducted, I haven't melted a dust boot or a ball joint boot, like I used to do before. A set of XP12/10 will last me two aggressive days at Road America (three 130+mph straights, 14 turns, around 3:00 lap times on street tires) and a solid aggressive day at Gingerman before they were done. Call it a little over three hours of actual track use. This season, I'm starting out with Hawk DTC60 up front and HT10 in back, just to check it out, but due to the rain at RA, I just barely got them bedded before I hung it up for the weekend. Make no mistake, though, road-racing ain't cheap!

My instructor who was with me at blackhawk during my school sessions runs in NASA. You might have seen him at the Road America event. He was in a Silver Cobalt SS/TC.

Yup, I saw him up there, I was paddocked at the other end of the instructor's pavilion. He looked to be hauling the mail out on track!

 

[Cone Sweeper]

Wow. This entire couple posts is very usable information. Some questions answered that i had wondered about in the past.
And I completely agree with the brake cooling is a MAJOR need when it comes to road racing. I've run the DTC60/blue's on the car when I ran at Sebring. I do not have stainless lines but I did have a cooling duct and racing brake fluid. It did the trick where I didn't melt anything and always had brakes when I needed them. - Scariest feeling in the world is wondering if the brakes will be there at 120+ in a straight lol

 

[Random Asshole]

Ha, that's my first post. Surprised it's come back up.

Sorry, haven't checked the board except for checking pm's since I got bit at the track on memorial day.

All I have now are my tapes...

But, yeah, that gear would have been all wrong. After learning to drive the car and having some proper rubber underneath, the 3:55 is still a great gear for stock option. 3:73 would have been about spot on, but I totally woulda tried 3:90's if I had another axle to swap in/out just for shits and grins.