Advice on Rotating Assembly Components

[Dubstep Shep]

Now you've opened up an entirely new can.
Let's say you get your 1000 and are able to smoke it corner to corner.....
How are you going to get the power to the ground?

I'm just thinking out loud here, but I'll tell you what I'm thinking....
I'm thinking if that car will eventually be a dedicated track car....
I'm thinking to make that one of the best cars on the track to have the most fun with...
I'm thinking...a solid NA car with the best suspension money can buy, Griggs.
Just thinking out loud.

Well I've already got a few Griggs components, so I'm not all wrong there lol.

 

[ejschmidt]

I was always under the impression that if you're into any sort of motorsports that aren't done in a straight line, N/A is the preferred method of power delivery, as there is no waiting to build boost, unless you're running a four banger with high compression and lots of boost where you're always in it anyways.

Judging by what you've said, to me it seems that a naturally aspirated block makes more sense, unless you want the car to be the theoretical jack of all trades, in which case lots of power and the ability to detune for whatever application you're about to use it for makes sense.

 

[Dubstep Shep]

I was always under the impression that if you're into any sort of motorsports that aren't done in a straight line, N/A is the preferred method of power delivery, as there is no waiting to build boost, unless you're running a four banger with high compression and lots of boost where you're always in it anyways.

Judging by what you've said, to me it seems that a naturally aspirated block makes more sense, unless you want the car to be the theoretical jack of all trades, in which case lots of power and the ability to detune for whatever application you're about to use it for makes sense.

I just don't see how a NA engine would make as much power as a FI engine that weighs the same in the car without spending a ridiculous sum of money.

Example; I can go buy an Yamaha YZF-R1 for 16k, then spend another 8k on a supercharger system and have 250hp. The naturally aspirated Moto GP bikes are naturally aspirated, but they cost well over a million dollars.

 

[ejschmidt]

If it's a track car, why do you need a ridiculous amount of power? I can't imagine utilizing much more than 4 or 500rwhp in any track event.

You're a gearhead, I'm sure you watch Top Gear. For the power lap, look at the fastest cars vs. the most powerful cars. Two different ball parks. (e.g. Ariel Atom, F1 Knockoff, et. al) You'd be better off, and save a lot more money, but having a lighter car with 400 naturally aspirated horsepower than a heavy car with 800 forced induction horsepower where you have to wait for the power to come in. Naturally aspirated horsepower is power available on demand, no lag behind it.

I think that you'd save a lot of money, and have more usable horsepower if you went naturally aspirated and high compression ratio, all while maintaining your high fidelity internals, and you've got a reliable high horsepower engine that's naturally aspirated and to me sounds like it better fits your needs.

Have you considered a big block? Remember, there's no replacement for displacement, and if you want 800 some-odd horsepower, displacement might be your friend.

 

[TurboX]

My point was 1000hp and reliable is a ignorant statement. I've been thru 3 motors looking for reliable 800hp. I do understand your point about wanting the best parts and what you should do but as others have pointed out, it takes a lot of prep work and a very fat budget. I stated the parts I think would be and recommended the coatings that I feel would help.

You also have to understand the mentality of this forum, we have all seen 10 or more guys come and go for each that said they were going to be making xxxx power. It funny to read all these guys post they are going to do it and when they find out its not about just slapping parts together they run out of money and move on to a Z06. If you are truely into anything beyond straight line, a Mustang is about 1 of the worst choices you can make. I suggest that Z06

 

[BadPiggy]

The naturally aspirated Moto GP bikes are naturally aspirated

Are you sure?
I gotta hunch they run big Kenne Bell blowers and you're just not seeing them.
I think you should add "naturally aspirated" in there for a 3rd time.
LOL!

Bustin' your chops, dude.

 

[ejschmidt]

Alas I poach, if you like the twisties, I've got an airlift suspension for sale. I don't like the twisties, I like the straight line bidniz.

 

[Dubstep Shep]

Have you considered a big block? Remember, there's no replacement for displacement, and if you want 800 some-odd horsepower, displacement might be your friend.

That goes back to the weight vs. power argument though. What does a big block weight compared to a modular with a blower? I don't know exactly, but I would guess more.

Are you sure?
I gotta hunch they run big Kenne Bell blowers and you're just not seeing them.
I think you should add "naturally aspirated" in there for a 3rd time.
LOL!

Bustin' your chops, dude.

Hahaha my bad, I wrote that half asleep. Proofreading FTW!

My point was 1000hp and reliable is a ignorant statement. I've been thru 3 motors looking for reliable 800hp. I do understand your point about wanting the best parts and what you should do but as others have pointed out, it takes a lot of prep work and a very fat budget. I stated the parts I think would be and recommended the coatings that I feel would help.

You also have to understand the mentality of this forum, we have all seen 10 or more guys come and go for each that said they were going to be making xxxx power. It funny to read all these guys post they are going to do it and when they find out its not about just slapping parts together they run out of money and move on to a Z06. If you are truely into anything beyond straight line, a Mustang is about 1 of the worst choices you can make. I suggest that Z06

Reliable as I use it is a relative statement. I mean reliable relative to that power level.

I'm not sure of your experience, but I had the pleasure of riding in a friends 2004 Cobra with 700RWHP and a full Griggs suspension. It absolutely smoked the M3, 911 Twin Turbo, S2000, and Vette that were also at the track event. And this car had a full subwoofer setup and a spare tire in the trunk; it was his daily driver. My point is that saying mustangs are only good for a straight line just isn't true, and to take some words from your mouth, it's an "ignorant statement."

I appreciate that what I want to do isn't the "norm" or easy. Nothing worth doing ever is.

I like bullet proofing (Pun intended) my car. I purposely pick a power number to build the engine for that I'll likely never run, because I like having that safety factor there. I understand that just because I set my goals there doesn't mean it's going to be reliable at lower power levels, because shit happens. I get that.

So, can we get back to the original questions? That's really what I'm here for.

 

[Dubstep Shep]

Alas I poach, if you like the twisties, I've got an airlift suspension for sale. I don't like the twisties, I like the straight line bidniz.

I've already blown a good bit on my Griggs setup lol. Thanks for the offer though!

 

[ejschmidt]

2003 Cobra had IRS, lest we forget.

I'm not sure if modmaxracing has all of it, but they probably have most of it. This may or may not have been asked already, but have you considered with going with a built shortblock? Or are you like me, and would rather build the same engine on your own?

Lots of things to consider here, but it seems to me like what you have listed is pretty much the best of the best.

 

[BadPiggy]

So, can we get back to the original questions? That's really what I'm here for.

Ok, I haven't really researched, but I'll offer my opinion.
Most everything you've listed is probably comparable to one another.

Kellogg Crank..I'm betting they have forged cranks that aren't on separate shelves that have HP ratings. I venture to say the Mustang Kellogg crank is the same across the board.

Rod Selection..everything listed is good shit, but there's one that stands out to me as being better. The Oliver rod. Oliver only builds I-beam rods. An I-beam rod is stronger than a H-beam.

Piston..personal preference, I think. Coated, for sure.

Rod Bearings..Clevite

Piston Rings..Total Seal

I forgot what else you listed. I personally believe a motor with these parts is certainly going to be top quality withstanding 1000HP. All that shot peening shit is personal preference. From what I gather from your posts, that shit is for nothing more than bragging rights.

 

[Dubstep Shep]

2003 Cobra had IRS, lest we forget.

True, but you should read what Bruce Griggs has written about IRS vs Stick axle. It's good stuff.

I'm not sure if modmaxracing has all of it, but they probably have most of it. This may or may not have been asked already, but have you considered with going with a built shortblock? Or are you like me, and would rather build the same engine on your own?

Lots of things to consider here, but it seems to me like what you have listed is pretty much the best of the best.

Well I pretty much decided that building it on my own would allow me greater flexibility and the potential for a better overall product. Notice I said potential lol. Also, I already bought a block, so changing my mind gets expensive from here on out.

I'll have to check with mod max and see what they have.

Ok, I haven't really researched, but I'll offer my opinion.
Most everything you've listed is probably comparable to one another.

Kellogg Crank..I'm betting they have forged cranks that aren't on separate shelves that have HP ratings. I venture to say the Mustang Kellogg crank is the same across the board.

Rod Selection..everything listed is good shit, but there's one that stands out to me as being better. The Oliver rod. Oliver only builds I-beam rods. An I-beam rod is stronger than a H-beam.

Piston..personal preference, I think. Coated, for sure.

Rod Bearings..Clevite

Piston Rings..Total Seal

I forgot what else you listed. I personally believe a motor with these parts is certainly going to be top quality withstanding 1000HP. All that shot peening shit is personal preference. From what I gather from your posts, that shit is for nothing more than bragging rights.

The I-beam is what the 4.6L comes with from the factory correct? It seems so much less sturdy just looking at it, even just comparing the manly pro series I-beams to the Manley H-beams, but I haven't seen a comparison in person, much less a FEA on them.

As far as shot peening, cryo treatment, etc, it's all basically methods to reduce inherent stresses in the material. Forging is a huge leg up on casting in that aspect, but it isn't perfect.

 

[ejschmidt]

You'll have to link me to the article of Griggs on IRS vs. SRA, I'm very interested.

An I-beam is intrinsically better at witholding torsional loads whereas H-beams are better at handling shear stress.

 

[Dubstep Shep]

You'll have to link me to the article of Griggs on IRS vs. SRA, I'm very interested.

An I-beam is intrinsically better at witholding torsional loads whereas H-beams are better at handling shear stress.

I can email it to you if you want? Bruce emailed me a copy so I have it on my laptop. I'm not sure if it's available online.

 

[ejschmidt]

Maybe that's why I couldn't find it.

I'll send you a PM

 

[Dubstep Shep]

So at this stage I've decided on a few things, and I'm still looking at a few others.

I've emailed Diamond to get a recommendation on pistons.



I've begun compiling part numbers and for all my ARP Hardware, here are the part numbers that I've found:
256-6301
256-4202
156-5901
156-2501
256-1001
254-2801
254-2901
156-5002

If any of those are incorrect, or if there are additional parts I've not included, please let me know.


Basically once I've decided on a Manufacturer for a particular component, and I know exactly what I want, like in the case of the ARP hardware, I'm putting it into a spreadsheet and cross referencing the part numbers with the different vendors and plotting their price in the cell. Thus I can find who offers the cheapest price. I have a friggin five tab excel sheet going on this engine build lol, but that's the way I've best found to keep track of all this information.

 

[ejschmidt]

Sounds like you're a spreadsheet guy like myself. I love doing cost analysis and macros with excel.

But I digress...

I think you mentioned this earlier, that you'd rather not use MMR. It seems to me that MMR has a pretty poor reputation in this neck of the woods; anybody know why?

 

[Dubstep Shep]

And furthermore, Shep...WHY aren't you a "Supporting Member" with $15 of your fat bank roll? You're certainly getting your money's worth, IMO.

skwerl and myself are...and we be broke ass bitches.
LOL

Went ahead and donated. I didn't know it was that cheap lol. The last forum I hung around it was like $50, and that buys a damn good beer.

 

[Dubstep Shep]

Sounds like you're a spreadsheet guy like myself. I love doing cost analysis and macros with excel.

But I digress...

I think you mentioned this earlier, that you'd rather not use MMR. It seems to me that MMR has a pretty poor reputation in this neck of the woods; anybody know why?

It's just so much easier to see comparisons when it's all on one sheet, nice and organized.

From what I've seen, a lot of people have had bad experiences with MMR. Engines blowing up two weeks after getting them, bad warranty service, etc. It seems like it happens with MMR far more often than other companies like JDM.

 

[monk36]

I haven't done any road racing, so I can only speak from things I've picked up along the way. I'd recommend an n/a motor for carving up roads. Being that you're in OK and assuming that you'd be doing most of the racing during the summer months, heat is going to be a factor. After all the heat issues I've been through with my motor just using it as a daily, I can't imagine the kind of shit that would have broken if I had road raced it.

Sure, you'd be able to compensate in a number of ways, but the expense to benefit ratio is going to be way out of wack. If you're fine with that, then no problem, but it just seems like a much smaller headache for what you'd end up getting. In addition, if the car is going to be a track car soon, why not focus on removing weight. It's much more cost effective, and you'd break far less shit in the drivetrain with all the added stress. To me, there's nothing more frustrating than when shit that you've poured money into breaks, and I can guarantee you that road racing on a supercharged motor will end up breaking stuff. You can mitigate it, but it's inevitable. An n/a motor [in my totally unbiased, though mostly inexperienced opinion] will give you more longevity. (please, if I'm talking mindless drivel, someone call an adult, and correct me)

My blueprint for a road course stang, if I were to go that route, would be a high compression n/a motor, t-56 magnum trans, and Griggs all around, as far as the highlights go. I don't know how much experience you have on road courses, but from speaking with my friends that do that kind of thing a lot, that setup I mentioned would take a good long while to outgrow. Once you did, you'd have the perfect base to then do a rebuild for power, should you choose it. Me, I think I'd be brick shitting happy with keeping it n/a.

Best of luck for whatever you end up choosing to do.

Edit for relevancy's sake: I'd stay away from Eagle rotating assemblies for our motors. Had nothing but problems with the one I had. Looks like you are looking at good stuff, though. -2c