Clutch over center?

csracing

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Just got done rebuilding the TR3650 in my Mustang (really neat project by the way). I put a new clutch in the car and machined a .125" spacer to put behind the slave cylinder based on some reading I've done here. The transmission works great and shifts smoother than it has as long as I've had it. Pedal pressure is a little light (I put a stock replacement clutch in it) but I'll adapt to that. Does not feel like there's any air in the line as the pedal is firm right off the stop with no spongy feel.

I reused the stock slave cylinder as the one supplied in the kit didn't seem to want to draw any fluid when I tried to bench bleed it. I didn't want to spend an hour horsing around with the replacement slave, so reinstalled the OEM Ford unit that has worked fine to this point.

I have a problem though. If I push the clutch in and rev the engine (~4000rpm), the clutch pedal hangs and does not want to release until the rpms fall. I initially thought it was the spacer, but thinking more about this hydraulic system, I'm not so sure.

The master cylinder pushes a fixed volume of fluid when you push the clutch in. The slave cylinder finds "home" on it's own by pushing fluid out and back up the line when the clutch pedal comes out. So the "clutch fully disengaged" point or clutch pedal out point in relation to the slave shouldn't matter as I see it. I say this because the master supplies the same volume of fluid to the slave every time you cycle the pedal.

So if that's the case, is the spacer really the problem or could it be something else? I'm ok with pulling it apart again to remove the spacer, but I'd prefer not to if the root cause is something else.

The only thing I can think could be a problem is if the spacer is actually putting too much pre-load on the diaphragm of the pressure plate and then the full stroke of the slave is driving the diaphragm past center.

Thoughts?
CSR
 

Fullboogie

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My first thought is that a 1/8" spacer behind the slave could cause it to "overreach" when pushing in on the diaphragm. It is the diaphragm fingers that are going to push back on the slave to bring it back "home". If the diaphragm is pushed in too far when the engine is revved, will it not cause the diaphragm fingers to stay pushed in - just as is the case with 3 finger pressure plates?
 

csracing

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that's my thought too, but I'm not sure that the spacer can make it drive over center unless it's starting with too much preload..
 
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JeremyH

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Why did you install a spacer with a stock clutch? Too much preload is likely your issue.
 

csracing

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Why did you install a spacer with a stock clutch? Too much preload is likely your issue.


From my original post: "...machined a .125" spacer to put behind the slave cylinder based on some reading I've done here..."

Seems like a lot of guys end up adding spacers for various reasons. Didn't want to take it apart due to the clutch not fully disengaging.
 

gil_t2

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Did you compare the diaphragm heights between the old and new PP's
 

JeremyH

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Remove the damn spacer. There is no way you need a spacer with a stock replacement clutch. Never seen that done or needed in anyway.

Some guys run a spacer with specific setups with different diaphrams, I run one but have an 04 cobra twin disc clutch and needed it.
 

gil_t2

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the reason for using the shim is the different style of diaphragm fingers, They are the deciding factor. I posted a work sheet for setting preload with photos on 2 threads here last year. Some guys were having problems with clutch installs. You need to pull the trans and remove the shim.
 

csracing

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the reason for using the shim is the different style of diaphragm fingers, They are the deciding factor. I posted a work sheet for setting preload with photos on 2 threads here last year. Some guys were having problems with clutch installs. You need to pull the trans and remove the shim.

Fair enough. That was what I figured, just wanted to make sure there wasn't something else I was overlooking. I'll get it out this weekend.
 

gil_t2

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Well sorry to be the barer of bad news. If you want to, remove the pressure plate, set it next to your old one and measure the height of the finger tips
 

csracing

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Well sorry to be the barer of bad news. If you want to, remove the pressure plate, set it next to your old one and measure the height of the finger tips


No worries. You don't learn anything if you never make any mistakes.

Happy that the trans rebuild was successful. 2nd gear and the synchro hub needed to be replaced. Also replaced all the blocking rings and fork pads for good measure.
 

AutoXRacer

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One word of caution...installing that spacer may have pushed the crank shaft forward and/or overloaded the thrust bearing. I would suggest you inspect your thrust bearing for damage.

Every time you press the clutch pedal, you put pressure on the crank, moving it forward, loading up the thrust bearing...too much pressure and your going to prematurely wear the thrust bearing resulting in total engine loss.

Just putting it out there...
 

908ssp

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My bet is removing the shim won't help. The stroke is set by the master cylinder not the position of the slave cylinder. Check the pedal stop make sure it wasn't bent back with your old clutch set up. Put a shim on the pedal stop that achieves the same thing as removing the 1/8" shim from between the slave and the transmission. You'll have to experiment to find the size of the shim on the pedal as it isn't a one to one ratio.
 

t-kid

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One word of caution...installing that spacer may have pushed the crank shaft forward and/or overloaded the thrust bearing. I would suggest you inspect your thrust bearing for damage.

Every time you press the clutch pedal, you put pressure on the crank, moving it forward, loading up the thrust bearing...too much pressure and your going to prematurely wear the thrust bearing resulting in total engine loss.

Just putting it out there...

lol wut? What did I just read?

908ssp is correct.
 

AutoXRacer

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lol wut? What did I just read?

908ssp is correct.

Just passing info that I've been given by multiple shops after my thrust bearing failure. I would hate for him to total his engine due to putting a spacer that is overloading his bearing.

Not giving technical advice...just being concerned. Is there something you know that you're not sharing?? :)
 

t-kid

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Dude, as 908ssp mentioned, the master cylinder dictates stroke... What shops are telling you this?

Never seen a thrust bearing failure from anything other than an unbalanced clutch/flywheel assembly crank-walking the motor, overloading/misalignment, or too much power
 

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