cortex watts link

[NoTicket]

What reason do I have to push a product or lie? I am not sponsored by anyone but myself (Cone 502 Racing being my own "Race Team" and is mostly a joke) nor do I sell product. My Fays2, once setup correctly, was noise free up until the rod ends wore out.

I didn't mean to imply that you were pushing anything. I just wanted a bit of clarification. Sometimes people say "no nvh increase" when they mean "no more than expected".

I am thinking about popping my Whiteline on eBay and running the phb again until it sells, and then putting on a Fays2.

 

[Roadracer350]

Before I purchased my Whiteline kit I road and drive some watts equipped mustangs out at Hallett. One had a Cortex and the rear was either Fay's or Steeda. Fay's and Steeda were both stupid loud with the Cortex being not as loud but still pretty noisy. Now with that being said they were all rod ended and yes on track cars that's not a big deal but most of the people on this site do duel duty. My Whiteline unit makes NO noise at all, gives me all the befits of the watts and is adjustable. Also, the install took less than 2hrs with the biggest pain being getting the stock stuff off. All you guys bash on Whiteline but it does the job pretty damn good. Just read back thru Terry's posts and you can see it.

 

[Roadracer350]

I didn't mean to imply that you were pushing anything. I just wanted a bit of clarification. Sometimes people say "no nvh increase" when they mean "no more than expected".

I am thinking about popping my Whiteline on eBay and running the phb again until it sells, and then putting on a Fays2.

Really.... What do you want for it. Remember it's used and you already broke it once.

 

[Gray Ghost GT]

I plan to take my Mustang to the 2014 SVT Superfest/SCMC 15th Anniversary event at VIR next May and will give anyone a ride around the paddock to listen first hand how quiet a Fays2 watts links really is for comparison purposes. I have no suspension noise and I'm running aftermarket sway bars, upper and lower control arms, shocks/struts, bump steer kit, springs, etc. Just remember, the watts link has to endure significant loads and stress while on the road course and if it fails, things can get 'ugly' very fast and the last thing you'll be thinking about is the money you saved, as you try to save you and your car. My goal is to highlight the pros/cons of these design differences so that we can all make informed purchases/modifications.

 

[Norm Peterson]

That said, having talked with Filip, I have to admit, Filip knows his shit and can think on his feet. He has the tools in house to test part changes without ever laying a weld or cutting materials and he has the knowledge and expertise to properly employ those tools for the betterment of his product. When I was discussing my torque arm with him he had some concerns about using a different differential cover and he ran a simulation with multiple different cover thicknesses and would not allow me to use the stock differential cover. That's fine, it was a good excuse to upgrade and I'm glad he didn't just say "YEAH! We will do that!" just to make a sale and then let me figure everything out on my own. I know he has spent a lot of time and effort on his product and he has earned my business in that regard.

If Filip has the variety of engineering experience that I think he has, nobody need ever question it.



I think some of the differences between the two Watts link designs have been discussed before, perhaps in another thread or maybe even PM, but the differences involved include holding the rear roll moment arm more constant (chassis mount) vs fixing the rear roll center height (diff mount) vs axle roll steer effects.

The roll center height matter either favors holding the front to rear lateral load transfer distribution less variable in heave (chassis mount), vs holding the front to rear lateral load transfer distribution less variable in pitch (diff mount), and the axle steer effect is a tiny bit less understeerish with the diff mount in the S197 situation where the LCAs as seen in plan view converge toward the rear (with LCAs that converge toward the front in plan view, the chassis mounted Watts link would be the tiny-bit-less-understeerish choice).

Which side of the axle steer matter any given individual prefers comes down to personal preference. Some drivers may actually be better off with just that little more understeer, because driver confidence out there near the limits of lateral grip also matters.

Spring stiffness will matter (because that affects how far things like CG height, roll center height and axle steer will actually vary.

There aren't any truly universal answers here, only guidelines.


Norm

 

[sheizasosay]

Before I purchased my Whiteline kit I road and drive some watts equipped mustangs out at Hallett. One had a Cortex and the rear was either Fay's or Steeda. Fay's and Steeda were both stupid loud with the Cortex being not as loud but still pretty noisy. Now with that being said they were all rod ended and yes on track cars that's not a big deal but most of the people on this site do duel duty. My Whiteline unit makes NO noise at all, gives me all the befits of the watts and is adjustable. Also, the install took less than 2hrs with the biggest pain being getting the stock stuff off. All you guys bash on Whiteline but it does the job pretty damn good. Just read back thru Terry's posts and you can see it.

I bet you don't know if all the non-whiteline watts were installed correctly or how many other rod ends were on the car that contributed to the noise(s) you heard. So I don't assume....do you know? Unless you know those bits, stop trying to push Whiteline watts link for just a fucking minute. If noticket wants to shit can the Whiteline watts; let him. You are driving me fucking nuts with your constant pushing of Whiteline, WHITELINE, WHITELINE! Do a grammar/spell check every once in a while too or I am gonna go ape shit.

If you want to bring up how many different parts have had failures from various manufacturers and say "they failed, it's part of the business" go ahead. Then we can look at the "why". And when you find a part that you can't say bad stuff about, I guess maybe that part should be considered worthy of mentioning with an appreciable respect. I've yet to see or hear a Fays2 break.

 

[Roadracer350]

I bet you don't know if all the non-whiteline watts were installed correctly or how many other rod ends were on the car that contributed to the noise(s) you heard. So I don't assume....do you know? Unless you know those bits, stop trying to push Whiteline watts link for just a fucking minute. If noticket wants to shit can the Whiteline watts; let him. You are driving me fucking nuts with your constant pushing of Whiteline, WHITELINE, WHITELINE!Do a grammar/spell check every once in a while too or I am gonna go ape shit.

If you want to bring up how many different parts have had failures from various manufacturers and say "they failed, it's part of the business" go ahead. Then we can look at the "why". And when you find a part that you can't say bad stuff about, I guess maybe that part should be considered worthy of mentioning with an appreciable respect. I've yet to see or hear a Fays2 break.

I put out their what I know and what I have experience with. No need to get shitty. Everyone talks up what they use and what they like. Let NoTicket "shit can" the unit. I don't give a fuck if he does or not. What pisses me off is that people buy this stuff and have 1 goddamn problem then want to scream its the biggest piece of shit ever made. Hell yea I would buy it off him then do my own R&D to make it better. The cars I rode in that had the fays 2 units most of them were stock except shocks, struts, lower control arms(one steeds and the other BMR) the a cortex was on a full blown race car with nothing but rod ends everywhere. Everyone wants to "push" (as you call it) what they run because that's what they believe in. If they didn't they wouldn't have purchased it. You want to be pissed because I talk Whiteline up then go for it. You guys want to bitch and moan about roll center this an adjustable that but most of you will never use it. Is it good to have? Yes. The Whiteline unit had what I wanted and what I needed but when someone talks them up everyone else gets pissy. Let NoTicket sell his unit that works just fine all because it had a mfg defect even tho they replaced the part. Let him buy what ever he wants no one cares.

 

[NoTicket]

I bet you don't know if all the non-whiteline watts were installed correctly or how many other rod ends were on the car that contributed to the noise(s) you heard. So I don't assume....do you know? Unless you know those bits, stop trying to push Whiteline watts link for just a fucking minute. If noticket wants to shit can the Whiteline watts; let him. You are driving me fucking nuts with your constant pushing of Whiteline, WHITELINE, WHITELINE! Do a grammar/spell check every once in a while too or I am gonna go ape shit.

If you want to bring up how many different parts have had failures from various manufacturers and say "they failed, it's part of the business" go ahead. Then we can look at the "why". And when you find a part that you can't say bad stuff about, I guess maybe that part should be considered worthy of mentioning with an appreciable respect. I've yet to see or hear a Fays2 break.

Really.... What do you want for it. Remember it's used and you already broke it once.

If you really want it we can do $650 shipped. I will probably put it on eBay for $750. And I'm sure if we continue talking about it in here we will be yelled at

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

 

[NoTicket]

Also, can somebody comment on why "correct installation" is so hard on the Fays2? It seems like a very simple install procedure but I keep seeing it brought up as a cause for the noise.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

 

[sheizasosay]

I'm tapping out.

 

[NoTicket]

I'm tapping out.

Hahaha I didn't mean to imply you were incorrect. I legitimately was wondering if there were some adjustments that needed to be made with the unit that people commonly mess up. Sorry.

 

[Gray Ghost GT]

Instruction link from Shelby. Centering the rear end before installing the propeller bars is critical in the installation process. Installation takes 3 to 4 hours:

1. Jack up the car and support the car with jack stands in such a way as to let the rear end hand free (unloaded).
2. Remove the existing panhard bar and brace.
3. Install the Fays2 frame (per the instructions in the install guide).
4. Install the axle tube clamps (per the instructions in the install guide).
5. Center the rear end under the car.
6. Install and adjust the propeller (per the instructons in the install guide).
7. Apply blue Loctite to all the axle clamp bolts and tighten to final torque specs as listed in the install manual.

NOTE: Verify proper assembly sequence of o-rings, washers, and spacers. You will need two 1-1/8 wrench's to assemble the watts link, and a digital level (Home Depot sells them for $40 or download a free app for your smartphone) or regular level (Lowes), so you can make sure that the watts bars are level. Ensure you torque to specs (listed in the instructions), and then after 50 miles, check ALL of the bolts.

 

[jayh007]

Instruction link from Shelby. Centering the rear end before installing the propeller bars is critical in the installation process. Installation takes 3 to 4 hours:

1. Jack up the car and support the car with jack stands in such a way as to let the rear end hand free (unloaded).
2. Remove the existing panhard bar and brace.
3. Install the Fays2 frame (per the instructions in the install guide).
4. Install the axle tube clamps (per the instructions in the install guide).
5. Center the rear end under the car.
6. Install and adjust the propeller (per the instructons in the install guide).
7. Apply blue Loctite to all the axle clamp bolts and tighten to final torque specs as listed in the install manual.

NOTE: Verify proper assembly sequence of o-rings, washers, and spacers. You will need two 1-1/8 wrench's to assemble the watts link, and a digital level (Home Depot sells them for $40 or download a free app for your smartphone) or regular level (Lowes), so you can make sure that the watts bars are level. Ensure you torque to specs (listed in the instructions), and then after 50 miles, check ALL of the bolts.

What is the correct procedure for centering the rear?

 

[Dubstep Shep]

What is the correct procedure for centering the rear?

I just took a set of calipers and measured the distance from the end of the axle to the frame on both sides.

 

[Gray Ghost GT]

What is the correct procedure for centering the rear?

I'll leave step-by-step procedures to the experts, but based on my research you don't want to measure center using the frame rails or fenders as a point of reference. Just because wheels appear even does NOT mean the vehicle's rear end is centered to the chassis itself. One method is to find common points side to side that the manufacture used to Jig the car during build and use a "triangulation" method to check center. You could also remove your wheels and use jack stands under the axle ends to simulate the car being "at rest" so the measurements are true using a plumb bob, string and measuring tape and caliper.

 

[Norm Peterson]

I know I've seen that sketch before . . . was it in Circle Track magazine?


Norm

 

[Gray Ghost GT]

I know I've seen that sketch before . . . was it in Circle Track magazine?


Norm

Yes, here's the link. I figured it made a good reference even though the vehicles were different.

 

[jayh007]

Yes, here's the link. I figured it made a good reference even though the vehicles were different.

Even with that procedure you measure off the frame rail but you are also checking rear wheel alignment as well as centering axle.

 

[Norm Peterson]

If you have body control hole dimensioning to work from, there's no reason you couldn't establish your car's longitudinal centerline from them. With all of the PITA-ness I suspect that would involve, I'd permanently mark a few things along the way and keep notes.


Norm

 

[neema]

Do you guys know if there's a lot of work involved with adjusting roll center on any of the watts links available? Once the control arms are initially setup, can you move the props up or down as you wish without messing with anything else?


I wish the Shelby "billet" watts link had the same roll center adjustment range as the Fays2 unit. It looks like they settled for less.