Cracked 4.6 Block.....AGAIN

[TurboX]

Ford designed the mod motorto use tty. The bolt cannot be overtorqued. It is very easy to not have consistent torques with regular hardware. This can lead to warping, uneven sealing, and additional stress. With a head it can also cause cylinder bore distortion.

There are a few whitepapers out there about the mod motor design. Dry reading but informative. Ford engineering designed a small, efficient, and very strong motor using modern technology and close machining.

Sean Hyland Book has alot of very informative info but does has some filler fluff bullshit. Its up to the reader to follow up and figure the fact from fluff but does have great info

Yes, factory torque to yield bolts. Use once, discard. They're very effective and hard to mess up. ARP's are great for high boost, high HP builds, but you've got to be very meticulous when torquing them down, especially on aluminum blocks.

ARPs also must be broken in, you cant just install and torque down. If Im not mistaken they also go thru a strech process, dont you have to torque and retorque like 3 times ? I have heard this from a few different engine builders.

If it's cheap and reliable it isn't fast
If it's cheap and fast it isn't reliable
If it's fast and reliable it isn't cheap

That is so funny, I do not know if last line is possible because whats the definition of fast ? IMO, 1000RWHP and mid 8s is fast.

 

[BruceH]

Sean Hyland Book has alot of very informative info but does has some filler fluff bullshit. Its up to the reader to follow up and figure the fact from fluff but does have great info.

Where are you coming up with that??? I would never use SH for reference material. I read white paper engineering articles. Like I said very dry but informative.

I realize that my opinions are usually not with the "crowd" but give me a break, that's pretty close to an insult.

 

[05moneypit]

With the new ARP studs, did you "strech" them when installed?

The set that we had trouble with had been in a couple of motors already.

The new set we just got and put in we torqued only once. I asked Al at ARP about re-torque or cycling them before final torque and his response was "as long as you use the ARP lube take them to 100ft lb and leave them alone unless you are using a head gasket that requires re-torque after a heat cycle".

So no we didn't. I measured and recorded the lengths of these new studs before we put it together. It will be interesting to see if any of them have changed when I take it apart.

Lee

 

[TurboX]

Where are you coming up with that??? I would never use SH for reference material. I read white paper engineering articles. Like I said very dry but informative.

I realize that my opinions are usually not with the "crowd" but give me a break, that's pretty close to an insult.

Bruce, I was adding to your comment about info thats out there and not contradicting anything you said so no reason you should be insulted.

The Hyland book has alot of facts about mod motors and how they evolved and what has changed thru the years. You dont like Hyland, thats fine I was stating my opinion on the book.

 

[BruceH]

Bruce, I was adding to your comment about info thats out there and not contradicting anything you said so no reason you should be insulted.

The Hyland book has alot of facts about mod motors and how they evolved and what has changed thru the years. You dont like Hyland, thats fine I was stating my opinion on the book.

I see it now, lol. I'm not a fan of SH, I do have the book though. There is a really good chapter on degreeing cams in it. Other than that it's like you said "filler and fluff".

 

[05stroker]

The set that we had trouble with had been in a couple of motors already.

The new set we just got and put in we torqued only once. I asked Al at ARP about re-torque or cycling them before final torque and his response was "as long as you use the ARP lube take them to 100ft lb and leave them alone unless you are using a head gasket that requires re-torque after a heat cycle".

So no we didn't. I measured and recorded the lengths of these new studs before we put it together. It will be interesting to see if any of them have changed when I take it apart.

Lee

I was told by my original builder that they need to be tourqed in sequence 3 times to stretch them. This was just a comment about studs in general and mine where done with oil.

 

[05moneypit]

I was told by my original builder that they need to be tourqed in sequence 3 times to stretch them. This was just a comment about studs in general and mine where done with oil.

Just out of curiosity, if you torqued them with oil what torque value did you use for final torque?

 

[DiMora]

Yes, factory torque to yield bolts. Use once, discard. They're very effective and hard to mess up. ARP's are great for high boost, high HP builds, but you've got to be very meticulous when torquing them down, especially on aluminum blocks.

Good to know. The last engine build I did (Ford 335 series 400 block) I used ARP hardware. The bolts came with ARP lube - so I used it - and torqued to the spec ARP provided (after validating its reasonableness with my factory shop manual). I use calibrated Snap-On torque wrenches.

Sean Hyland Book has alot of very informative info but does has some filler fluff bullshit. Its up to the reader to follow up and figure the fact from fluff but does have great info




ARPs also must be broken in, you cant just install and torque down. If Im not mistaken they also go thru a strech process, dont you have to torque and retorque like 3 times ? I have heard this from a few different engine builders.



That is so funny, I do not know if last line is possible because whats the definition of fast ? IMO, 1000RWHP and mid 8s is fast.

I thought ARP's do not stretch like TTY bolts and do not need broken in. that is why people invest in them - they are re-usable, and less likely to break vs factory bolts.

The set that we had trouble with had been in a couple of motors already.

The new set we just got and put in we torqued only once. I asked Al at ARP about re-torque or cycling them before final torque and his response was "as long as you use the ARP lube take them to 100ft lb and leave them alone unless you are using a head gasket that requires re-torque after a heat cycle".

So no we didn't. I measured and recorded the lengths of these new studs before we put it together. It will be interesting to see if any of them have changed when I take it apart.

Lee

That's what I was told. lube (with ARP lube) and torque to spec. Done. Obviously torque in the proper pattern/sequence and make a couple passes to make sure all are torqued correctly. I also torque in intervals as prescribed by shop manuals...for example...if the spec is 100 LB/ft, I would do something like 40/75/100 or the like.

 

[redstangs9308gt]

Simple question here, how do you have your crank case pressure venting?

 

[05moneypit]

Simple question here, how do you have your crank case pressure venting?

To atmosphere.

 

[05stroker]

Just out of curiosity, if you torqued them with oil what torque value did you use for final torque?

100 ft lb . One thing to note is that I did not do the stretching on mine.They were done by a local builder and I don't what he used for lube. They were torqued three times as mentioned above to stretch them though. After that I just had to torque them one time in the proper sequence.

 

[05moneypit]

I thought ARP's do not stretch like TTY bolts and do not need broken in. that is why people invest in them - they are re-usable, and less likely to break vs factory bolts.

All bolts/studs "stretch" that is what we are doing when we torque a bolt or stud. A torque wrench is the common method for doing this because it is impractical and sometime impossible to measure bolt/stud stretch.

With a TTY bolt when we tighten it we are simply using the torque angle method to stretch the bolt. This is basically how it works, head studs on our engines are 11mm X 1.5mm The 1.5mm is the distance between one thread so one turn of the bolt will move it in 1.5mm. So when we do the first stage of the torque with a TTY the bolt it is tightened to 30ft lbs, this compresses the head gasket and seats the bolt but does not begin to stretch it. The next step is a 90* turn of the bolt, since the head gasket is basically compressed when we turn the bolt it is "stretching" so 90* is 1/4 of a full turn and a full turn is 1.5mm so 1.5mm/4=.375mm so we have stretched the bolt 375 microns. We then turn the bolt an additional 1/4 turn for final tightening we stretch the bolt an additional 375 microns for a total bolt stretch of 750 microns or in US terms we have stretched the bolt .0295 inches. Actual "torque" value is irrelevant when measuring stretch.

With the ARP2000 rod bolts we use in these engines the correct method is to stretch the bolt not torque it. The bolt should be stretched .005 to .006 but since most people don't have a bolt stretch gage ARP supplies a torque value (55ft lbs) that if used with their lube will give you approximately that stretch. Again the torque angle method could be applied to tightening those bolts but none of us have tools accurate enough to measure it. 3/8x24 rod bolt. 24TPI. 1 turn = .04166 divide that by 360* so 1* = .0001157 stretch we need .0055 stretch so that would be 47.5* of rotation but being off 4* in either direction would put the bolt out of spec. That is why most good engine builders always measure rod bolt stretch.

So did I make your head hurt?.....

I do have a little knowledge on the subject, I have worked for the same company for 29 years and we manufacture very large diesel engines. Every single bolt on that engine has a torque value but for the "critical" fasteners (head studs, main studs, rod bolts, piston bolts) we use some form of tooling to accurately measure the stretch of the fastener, some is automated and some is with a simple dial indicator stretch gage.

I have never seen a video of Ford assembling a cylinder head on an engine but I would bet a paycheck that it is with some form of DC tooling that is tightening all the head bolts at the same time and that tooling is measuring how far the bolt is turned.


With all this you would think I would be able to bolt a set of heads on my own engine and not phuck it up.....................

Lee

 

[05moneypit]

100 ft lb . One thing to note is that I did not do the stretching on mine.They were done by a local builder and I don't what he used for lube. They were torqued three times as mentioned above to stretch them though. After that I just had to torque them one time in the proper sequence.

So you torqued the ARP studs with oil to 100ft lbs.........interesting. Evidently it is working quite well so I can't argue with doing it that way

Lee

 

[BruceH]

My personal opinion is that studs would cost Ford less than tty but they would be less reliable. Sometimes proper torque is very important, fastening heads is one of those times. TTY fasteners always apply the correct amount of torque, they are engineered that way.

TTY may get a bad rap from the GM guys because GM puts crap fasteners in the LS motors. Ford Mod motors have an excellent reputation for holding up with tty hardware. Terminator, GT500, and Aluminator motors come to mind. It's not uncommon to see 20psi+ on a factory made motor with one of those names. Even the general purpose stock mod motors hold up very well with higher hp. Almost always it's the powdered rods that go. Not the hypereutetic pistons, cast crank, or tty head bolts.

I think that alot of people are stuck in the 70's and try to build everything like it's a small block chevy. A lot has changed and Ford has been leading the way with close tolerance mod motors.

There is a lot of free info out on the web concerning mod motors. I'm surprised that people put so much money into their motors and don't bother to do a little research.

 

[weather man]

Since I have never bolted heads on, I looked up what the instructions for ARP studs call for. I have them in my motor and called and verified that this is how they were installed. Danny at DB Performance says they have never had a problem using these instructions.

No stone throwing...just thought I would post how ARP thinks it should be done.

Automotive Racing Products Tel: (805) 339-2200
1863 Eastman Avenue Fax: (805) 650-0742
Ventura, Ca 93003 www.arp-bolts.com
INSTALLATION METHOD FOR HEAD STUD KITS
Part Number: 256-4002 & 256-4202 Application: Ford Modular 4.6L & 5.4L 3V​

1.

Always verify the part number for your application with the part number on the side of box and the part

number on the instruction sheet. This will help ensure you have the correct installation procedure for
your specific application before installing any components.
​

​

​

​

​

​

2. Clean and inspect all hardware prior to installation. Look for obvious defects or shipping damages, plus proper fit,
length and dimension.
3. To ensure proper thread engagement and accurate torque readings, clean ALL threads in the block. Chase if
necessary with ARP Thread Chaser, part number 912-0005 (M11 X 1.5).
4. If the cylinder head studs protrude into a water jacket, lubricate the block threads of the studs with ARP THREAD
SEALER.
5. Screw studs into the block “HAND TIGHT ONLY”.
NOTE: LOCTITE MAY BE USED IF A PERMANENT MOUNTING OF THE STUDS IS PREFERRED. THE
FASTENERS, HOWEVER, MUST BE TORQUED PRIOR TO THE LOCTITE SETTING UP.
6. Install the cylinder head(s) and check for binding or misalignment.
7. Lubricate the stud threads, nuts and washers with ARP ULTRA-TORQUE FASTENER ASSEMBLY LUBRICANT.
Then install the washers and the nuts onto the studs and tighten them hand tight. ​

​

ARP recommends using the

ARP ULTRA-TORQUE FASTENER ASSEMBLY LUBRICANT that is provided with each kit as opposed to
motor oil. This is due to higher friction on the studs as well as inconsistencies in the clamping force of
the fasteners when motor oil or other low quality lubricants are used.
​

​

PRELOAD (TORQUE) RECOMMENDATIONS
8. Following the manufacturers recommended torque sequence tighten the nuts ​

​

in three equal steps to 100 ft lbs

with ARP ULTRA-TORQUE FASTENER ASSEMBLY LUBRICANT.
​

​

Note: ​

​

ARP Ultra-Torque Fastener Assembly Lubricant has been specifically designed to reduce tension preload scatter and​

eliminate the need to cycle high performance engine fasteners before final installation. ARP Ultra-Torque far surpasses all
requirements offered by previous ARP lubricants in terms of fastener preload repeatability and performance lubricating
properties. For more information on ARP Ultra-Torque visit our website at ​

​

www.arp-bolts.com or call 1 800-826-3045.

​

​

Bolt Torque Sequence


Drivers side shown, Passenger side same​

3/7/11

​

 

[ummduh]

Is there a reason you are running a motor plate? I have not seen many doing this....

Did I read that right that you are running a solid mount motor plate and a stock transmission mount?

I come primarily from the off road world and that's a huge no-no there. It'll usually result in cracked blocks and transmission cases just like that. Granted with a solid engine and floppy transmission you'd probably crack the transmission case, but either way you should probably change that. Your transmission and engine need to have similar mounts on them.

 

[ford20]

Where are you coming up with that??? I would never use SH for reference material. I read white paper engineering articles. Like I said very dry but informative.

I realize that my opinions are usually not with the "crowd" but give me a break, that's pretty close to an insult.

Do you know where one could find these white paper engineering articles?

There is a lot of free info out on the web concerning mod motors. I'm surprised that people put so much money into their motors and don't bother to do a little research.

Is there any place to begin looking or some sort of keywords to use for looking for more information?

 

[BruceH]

Do you know where one could find these white paper engineering articles?


Is there any place to begin looking or some sort of keywords to use for looking for more information?

Start searching 4.6, 5.4, modular motor, Ford, etc. Basically anything you can think up. I didn't save the links but iirc one of the better ones was published in Popular Mechanics back in the 90's when the motor first appeared. I think that was the one about how the deep holes for head fasteners combined with tty hardware kept bore deflection to a minimum. Something is keeping it to a minimum because even GT500 motors have ptb of .0002-.001" and they aren't plate honed yet they last forever as long as a rod doesn't go.

Some of the specs are tighter than some machine shops can even measure. http://iihs.net/fsm/?dir=168&viewfile=SPECIFICATIONS.pdf

Main bearing clearance of .0009"-.001891". That's tight.


Disregard any forum links that pop up.

 

[05moneypit]

Did I read that right that you are running a solid mount motor plate and a stock transmission mount?

I come primarily from the off road world and that's a huge no-no there. It'll usually result in cracked blocks and transmission cases just like that. Granted with a solid engine and floppy transmission you'd probably crack the transmission case, but either way you should probably change that. Your transmission and engine need to have similar mounts on them.

No it is a chrome moly tube mount attached to a prothane trans mount for the 4R70.

Most drag race applications with a motor plate either use no trans mount or like you said bolt it solid. Two different schools of thought. I don't know which is best. We have always used no trans mount in all the drag cars I have ever had but all of them were iron block manual trans cars.

Again the reason we went with a mid plate on this build was to take the stress off the sides of the block because we thought that was part of what led to the WAP block cracking.

 

[DiMora]

All bolts/studs "stretch" that is what we are doing when we torque a bolt or stud. A torque wrench is the common method for doing this because it is impractical and sometime impossible to measure bolt/stud stretch.

With a TTY bolt when we tighten it we are simply using the torque angle method to stretch the bolt. This is basically how it works, head studs on our engines are 11mm X 1.5mm The 1.5mm is the distance between one thread so one turn of the bolt will move it in 1.5mm. So when we do the first stage of the torque with a TTY the bolt it is tightened to 30ft lbs, this compresses the head gasket and seats the bolt but does not begin to stretch it. The next step is a 90* turn of the bolt, since the head gasket is basically compressed when we turn the bolt it is "stretching" so 90* is 1/4 of a full turn and a full turn is 1.5mm so 1.5mm/4=.375mm so we have stretched the bolt 375 microns. We then turn the bolt an additional 1/4 turn for final tightening we stretch the bolt an additional 375 microns for a total bolt stretch of 750 microns or in US terms we have stretched the bolt .0295 inches. Actual "torque" value is irrelevant when measuring stretch.

With the ARP2000 rod bolts we use in these engines the correct method is to stretch the bolt not torque it. The bolt should be stretched .005 to .006 but since most people don't have a bolt stretch gage ARP supplies a torque value (55ft lbs) that if used with their lube will give you approximately that stretch. Again the torque angle method could be applied to tightening those bolts but none of us have tools accurate enough to measure it. 3/8x24 rod bolt. 24TPI. 1 turn = .04166 divide that by 360* so 1* = .0001157 stretch we need .0055 stretch so that would be 47.5* of rotation but being off 4* in either direction would put the bolt out of spec. That is why most good engine builders always measure rod bolt stretch.

So did I make your head hurt?.....

I do have a little knowledge on the subject, I have worked for the same company for 29 years and we manufacture very large diesel engines. Every single bolt on that engine has a torque value but for the "critical" fasteners (head studs, main studs, rod bolts, piston bolts) we use some form of tooling to accurately measure the stretch of the fastener, some is automated and some is with a simple dial indicator stretch gage.

I have never seen a video of Ford assembling a cylinder head on an engine but I would bet a paycheck that it is with some form of DC tooling that is tightening all the head bolts at the same time and that tooling is measuring how far the bolt is turned.


With all this you would think I would be able to bolt a set of heads on my own engine and not phuck it up.....................

Lee

Good stuff.

OK..the easy part: OEM fasterners. Use new. Either torque to yield using stretch gauge, or if no gauge present, use a torque number. Use once and discard.

So...Here is where the smoke is coming out of my ears: ARP fasteners. High end. Re-usable? I understood that they are - but I could be wrong. So...do they "stretch" when stretch-gauged or torqued to a number value and remain permanently stretched after use, or is there some elasticity in them (IE they return to stock length when dis-assembled) that allows their re-use? OR does ARP recommend use once and discard just like OEM? My common sense tells me they would not have any elasticity (and remain stretched), but I don't know. Perhaps a call to ARP is in order...I would like to know the skinny if nobody here knows with certainty.