Degreeing Cams

[TurboX]

I am going to try and explain in a step by step process what it takes to degree cams on a 3V. I have read Sean Hylands book on Modular motors, searched forums and read a lot of articles on how to degree cams. All made it seem harder than it really is, here is my take on it. I welcome any questions or comments, especially if I did something wrong.

First is a list of items you are going to need. I made some of mine, Im sure you can buy them but I did it with items we had laying around the shop. This is my 2nd time setting up cams on a 3V, the 1st time I did it with my buddy Tim Lee@Maximium Velocity in San Antonio,TX. This time I feel comfortable enough to tackle it on my own

1) Dial indicator with adjustable arms to set up at 90 degree angle from deck of head.
2) Degree wheel
3) Pointer for degree wheel
4) Solid Lifter
5) Piston Stop
6) Crank Bolt
7) Adjustable Cam gears


Here you can see where I got a old spark plug, broke the top and center out and welded a dowel to make a piston stop.

Again, keeping it simple. I got a old lifter, fully extended it and tack welded to creat a solid lifter.

Homemade pointer

Crankbolt, I took my stock crankbolt and cut about ½ “ and used a spacer laying around the shop. This will hold the degree wheel to the crankshaft to take measurements.

Adjustable Cam gears, As much as you guys hate BBR. Their cam gears are the best on the market, they will allow you to set timing exact. The only other alternatives I know are the TFS adjustable lower gears, the only allow adjustment in 2 degree increments. The other option is the Paschal performance and I would never use those, many people have had them come loose and end up damaging valve train. Here is a photo of the BBR units and them installed on my last motor.

Last, the base of my dial indicator contraption is magnetic. Since heads are aluminum I needed a steel base. I found a piece of steel plate, I drilled a hole and mounted it to the head and then attached dial indicator. It is important that you be able to set up the dial indicator at exactly 90 degrees from the deck of the head.

This covers the materials needed so lets begin:


The first step is going to be finding TDC(Top Dead Center), I turned the motor to where the piston was at BDT(Bottom Dead Center). I inserted the piston stop and turned the motor until the piston made contact with the piston stop. I then took the crank bolt and put the degree wheel on and set this up as 0 degrees.

Now you need to rotate the engine in opposite direction until you make contact between piston and pistons stop.

You can see, I landed at 55 degrees. Divide 55 degrees by 2 and this is TDC. In this case it is 27.5 degrees, I pulled the piston stop out and turned motor until I reached 27.5 degrees. I then loosened the bolt holding degree wheel and set it at 0, you at now at TDC.

TDC

I will now rotate the engine until I go .050 past peak lift, write this number down. As you can see I landed at 156.5

As you can see, the dial indicator is past .050. While it might not look like much, this is close to 1.5 degrees on the degree wheel. You really should be precise when Degreeing cams. The above picture was taken after I snapped this picture and noticed I was a **** hair past .050.

I will now rotate the motor back to .150 past the peak lift, the reason I did this is because I notice a little slack in chains when going back. After going back .150, I went to .050 before peak lift. Once again, write this number down. I ended up with 81.5 degrees.

Add both these numbers, divide by 2 and this is your intake centerline. In my case, 156.5 + 81.5= 238/2= 119. I want to set my intake centerline at 114 degrees, this means I need to retard the cams 4 degrees. I am not going to show how to do this because depending on what you use to degree the process will be different.

After you make your adjustments, you need to repeat the steps to find intake centerline and make changes until you reach the desired intake centerline.

I started with the drivers side because it is the chain that is closest to the oil pump, I triple check everything along the way and this process took me about 2.5 hours. I expect the passengers side to take about the same and then I will clean everything up and reassemble with all the followers. I have the Ford tool to remove and install rockers(Thanks Rojizostang) , I had trouble using it to remove the followers and just ended up unbolting cam caps and taking followers out. I do not know if this is due to custom springs and retainers or human error, Rojizostang is going to try and swing by and we will see if its human error. I do not want to have to lay followers on cams and tighten down caps to assemble the heads. I hope to have the long block assembled this week and add to this thread if I find other issues.

Thanks

Buzz

 

[Flapjack]

Very nice writeup!

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2

 

[Scott]

Great thread, I am just going through this process as well. Did not take long to discover that there are not many commercial available tools for Degreeing Cams on a 3V.

I also made up a 12mm Thread Piston Stop from a spark plug 8mm threaded rod and nut. Not sure about you but it took me over two hours to break the ceramic out of the old plug with punches and a hammer. How did you do it?

Instead of welding a lifter I bought 2 Trick Flow Specialties solid Lash Adjusters for use on cylinder #1 and #6 as they are at TDC at the same time. To be able to adjust the set key in the lash adjuster to zero lash, I need to enlarge the whole on two roller followers. OEM Roller Follower on the left, TFS Solid Lash Adjuster in the center and modified Roller Followers on the right.

Allen Key Passing through Roller Follower to adjust set key to zero lash.

Comp Cams does offer a neat Crankshaft Socket part number 4798, it provides a convenient way of rotating the engine and allows you to relocate the degree wheel without the risk of moving the crankshaft.

I have found TDC, but am picking up a second TFS Solid Lash Adjuster on Monday at which point I will check the cams. If I need to adjust the cam timing I will be using TFS Adjustable Crankshaft Sprockets, part number TFS-51800505

I used a slightly different method for locating TDC, here is my process. Installed the TFS Degree Wheel and a pointer. The Degree Wheel was set to zero at the pointer.

Engine was rotated counter clockwise 20 degrees and the Piston Stop was installed in #1 spark plug.

Crankshaft was rotated clockwise until the piston fit the stop at which point the number indicated on the degree wheel was recorded, in my case 7 degrees, “A”

The crankshaft was then slowly rotated counter clockwise until the piston fit the stop in the other direction. Again the number on the degree wheel was recorded, in my case 36 degrees, “B”.

Piston Stop was removed and the Crankshaft was rotated to the midpoint of the two marks on the degree wheel. In My Case 21.5, “C” = (“A” + “B”) / 2

Without moving the crankshaft the Degree Wheel was relocated to zero degrees at the pointer.

 

[05stroker]

Nice writeup, I used the second method to find TDC also. Its also not very uncommon for the two sides to be different from one another.

 

[05moneypit]

Nice writeup, I used the second method to find TDC also. Its also not very uncommon for the two sides to be different from one another.

^^^Agreed^^^ Really need to do both sides.


Nice write up by the OP.

 

[TurboX]

I used a slightly different method for locating TDC, here is my process. Installed the TFS Degree Wheel and a pointer. The Degree Wheel was set to zero at the pointer.

Engine was rotated counter clockwise 20 degrees and the Piston Stop was installed in #1 spark plug.

Crankshaft was rotated clockwise until the piston fit the stop at which point the number indicated on the degree wheel was recorded, in my case 7 degrees, “A”

The crankshaft was then slowly rotated counter clockwise until the piston fit the stop in the other direction. Again the number on the degree wheel was recorded, in my case 36 degrees, “B”.

Piston Stop was removed and the Crankshaft was rotated to the midpoint of the two marks on the degree wheel. In My Case 21.5, “C” = (“A” + “B”) / 2

Without moving the crankshaft the Degree Wheel was relocated to zero degrees at the pointer.

I reread my post to see if I didnt explain it properly, the only difference I see in your way vs my way is you set your degree wheel first and I didnt set it until I hit the piston stop, is this correct ?

You are correct, it was a bitch to make that piston stop. Like you, getting every last bit of ceramic out of the plug took time. Yesterday when I went to start, Tim told me he ordered the TFS solid lifter.

I like the degree wheel you have, I did forget to mention that its important to make sure you do not move the degree wheel once set up. I did not turn the crank from the front area, I inserted all the old flywheel bolts and used a prybar to rotate engine back and forth from the back.

Tim mentioned he had ordered the TFS solid lifter kit, he asked if I wanted to wait but since I only work on car on weekends I decided to pass.

Nice writeup, I used the second method to find TDC also. Its also not very uncommon for the two sides to be different from one another.

^^^Agreed^^^ Really need to do both sides.


Nice write up by the OP.

You are both correct, I only did the drivers side yesterday. I plan on adding the differences in TDC between the 2 holes as well as the differences in cam timing between 2 banks. I think these differences will really show why it isnt a bad idea to degree cams even on a mild build, its free power being left on the table when not doing this. I cant remember the differences I read in the Hyland book but it was shocking.


Part of the reason I said that all the books and cam manufactures make this harder than it really is because, why do they have you measure exhaust side as well ? Checking both really does nothing more than verify your cam is ground correctly. Help me if Im missing something but exhaust is what it is, no way to adjust both unless your working with a DOHC.

Last question, How did you reassemble heads ? I DO NOT like the idea of having to tighten caps down compressing parts

 

[05moneypit]

I always put the followers in last with a spring compressor. Just always felt better about doing it that way.

 

[05stroker]

Ive never used a spring compressor. I have always just tightened the bolts down with a gradual approach.Then torque to spec. Then I back them off and retorque one at a time. The "right" way is with a spring compressor though.

 

[Mike K]

So since I'm putting cams in my car (127500) do I need to do any of this or can I just put the springs and cams in and be done?

 

[05stroker]

So since I'm putting cams in my car (127500) do I need to do any of this or can I just put the springs and cams in and be done?

You could do that or you could degree them and gain a few hp. FWIW on my current cams they are just installed straight up out of the box. I may degree them later to see the hp difference.

You can also degree the cams to change the rpm band that they perform. If you want the power to come in sooner you just move the intake center line down.

 

[lito]

Excellent thread John.

Never found any issues with the OTC tool for removing any follower, the only issue comes when you replace springs with it as it does not go deep enough to clear the retainers, an extension solves that. I think that someone posted about this but I do not recall who did it. Puzzles me why it did not worked for you this time. Exhaust are usually easier than intake.

I used a long bolt that was the same thread as the spark plug, a longer bolt tends to be better as you stop the piston by were it should have a higher angular velocity and that gives you more precision that when is close to the actual TDC.

I used this: http://www.s197forum.com/forum/showpost.php?p=668037&postcount=43

Doing this is better (degreeing), there are tolerance differences and the answer that Michael@L&M gave me once that I will never forget, you want to deal with a single engine with 8 cylinders, not two different 4 cyls engines in a single block.

 

[cschoening09]

excellent info here! thanks!

 

[TurboX]

Excellent thread John.

Never found any issues with the OTC tool for removing any follower, the only issue comes when you replace springs with it as it does not go deep enough to clear the retainers, an extension solves that. I think that someone posted about this but I do not recall who did it. Puzzles me why it did not worked for you this time. Exhaust are usually easier than intake.

I used a long bolt that was the same thread as the spark plug, a longer bolt tends to be better as you stop the piston by were it should have a higher angular velocity and that gives you more precision that when is close to the actual TDC.

I used this: http://www.s197forum.com/forum/showpost.php?p=668037&postcount=43

Doing this is better (degreeing), there are tolerance differences and the answer that Michael@L&M gave me once that I will never forget, you want to deal with a single engine with 8 cylinders, not two different 4 cyls engines in a single block.

Manuel, Im glad you commented on this post and wouldnt mind if you posted pictures of the Paschal failure.

As to timing a single 8 cylinder engine versus 2- 4 cylinder engines, are you referring to finding TDC on both banks ?

 

[lito]

Manuel, Im glad you commented on this post and wouldnt mind if you posted pictures of the Paschal failure.

As to timing a single 8 cylinder engine versus 2- 4 cylinder engines, are you referring to finding TDC on both banks ?

Sorry, that comment was direct to 06 Saleen on why do this.

Here is a pic of paschal failure:

And here is the thread:

s197forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=75396

 

[Mike K]

Thanks Lito. I have lockouts and I'm going with livernois springs. I'm going to be installing them with the motor in the car. I just wanted to make sure I could make sure I could just install tune and run it.

 

[TurboX]

Nice writeup, I used the second method to find TDC also. Its also not very uncommon for the two sides to be different from one another.

Finally finished, I made sure each bank was dead nuts on. I rechecked the 1st bank and before breaking it down, reinserted the piston stop to make sure my degree wheel was still at TDC (0). I then left degree wheel on and put piston stop in number 1 hole, my number 1 and number 6 were dead on the same. Kinda comforting to know that mine did not vary from side to side. I set up the right bank and again set it up dead on, it was a real bitch trying to go 1/4 degree in each direction to land on exact number.

Picking up valve covers, timing cover and water crossover from powder coating tomorrow and hope to have a long block assembled next weekend.

 

[JoshK]

That's great. Good luck man.

 

[05stroker]

Good to hear!

 

[TurboX]

Thanks guys, car has been down 11 months. I'm really beginning to get excited, I have been nowhere close to getting in touch with Manuel but maybe next week I can start whispering in his ear.

Rford swung by the shop to pick up a FPDM, was cool chatting with him. Hopefully when Manuel comes in he can get his tune dialed in.

Forgot to mention, Tim got the TFS solid lifters. We didnt have the followers but I went to Ford and bought 2 spares and drilled them. It was a pain in the ass, I stuck with my Mexican engineered welded lifters and finished it up that way. I also gave up on the spring tool(thanks rojizostang), I put followers on and slowly and evenly tightened cam caps to 89" lbs.

I used loctite blue on all bolts, cam bolt, oil pump, timing guides,tensioners and cam caps. I also gotta give credit to tmrcole. It's so easy to follow his thread to find all torques.

 

[aleborjas]

"Add both these numbers, divide by 2 and this is your intake centerline. In my case, 156.5 + 81.5= 238/2= 119. I want to set my intake centerline at 114 degrees, this means I need to retard the cams 4 degrees. I am not going to show how to do this because depending on what you use to degree the process will be different"

i see one mistake here if you got 119° and your cam intake centerline is 114° you need to ADVANCE the cam not retard it...

nice write up