DiMora's Build Thread

[BadPiggy]

This is what happens when the crank flexes. Also, Gerald, notice the backplate? That's a GT500 oil pump with stock gears. This motor was basically brand new when it let go.

http://www.s197forum.com/forum/showpost.php?p=2125251&postcount=21

 

[eighty6gt]

Stock crankshaft in that build? I couldn't find the info in a few minutes.

 

[retfr8flyr]

Yeah, I would not blame the Comp Cams limiters for that failure. Seems like an installation issue:



The statement above leads me to think incorrect fasteners were used.
In addition, I think he might have used too strong of valve springs for the limiters. Limiters are only to be used with slightly firmer than stock springs for mild street cams with less than 0.50" lift.

Just my take on it.

Well I can tell you that your take is Bullshit. The problem is in the design of the limiters. They will be fine if you have an 05-06 with the original phasers installed. That is what they were designed for. There have been many upgrades to the design of the phasers over the years and the Comps haven't changed, hell their installation tool wont even work with the newer designs. If you are going to use them then you will need to get longer bolts then the stock ones, to catch the springs but I have no idea if that will affect anything else with the phasers. You are already adding weight with the thick Comp spacer and longer bolts will just add more weight. I still have my Comps because I wouldn't want to sell them to anyone. It's funny that I have the same springs and cams as I had with the Comp limiters that blew apart and the Livernois limiters setup is working fine.

 

[AutoXRacer]

Wow, I ran the comp cams limiters to 7000 RPM with no issues; road course. Brand new Phasers, 127300 cams, with PAC springs 1233.

Well, the bonus of using the Livernois limiters is that they are a lot cheaper than the Comp Cams limiters. Plus you have the option of 10 degree or 20 degree limits. The Phaser is the least impacted with the Livernois setup.

 

[DiMora]

You guys are great. I'll reply below. Also..I have a twist here and need more input...

Here is the twist:

The pistons in this short-block are not Diamond 9.8:1's...they are Mahle pistons...Oh snap. Great if I was N/A...boosted....ugh...let's talk...

M3V220551F01
3050_01
90P68 M-2
M142

Translated:

Stock bore pistons 3.551" diameter
M142 Alloy (4032)
.866 pin diameter
3.556 MS-15 Rings
Dish -1CC (per Mahle, acutally .9CC)

With all the numbers below, it means 11.51:1 compression.

Bore: 3.554"
Stroke: 3.750"
Chamber: 49.8cc
Deck clearance: -.0080"
Gasket thickness: .0510" (I used a Cometic number)
Gasket diameter: 3.6220"
Dish: .9cc
Deck Height: 8.937"
Rod Length: 5.850"
Stroke: 3.750"
Compression Height: 1.220"
Deck clearance: -0.0080" (above deck)
Swept volume: 609.617cc
Gasket Volume: 8.611 cc
Clearance Volume: 58.011 cc
Compression Ratio: 11.51:1
Displacement: 297.6ci

Here is the Wallace racing calculator with the Comp 127350 Stage 2 VSR blower cams I plan on running:

http://www.wallaceracing.com/dynamic-cr.php

Camshaft, Rod Length, Boost and Altitude Correction to Compression (1,026 MSL altitude for Atlanta)

Static compression ratio of 11.51:1.
Effective stroke is 3.75 inches.
Your dynamic compression ratio is 11.30:1 .
Your dynamic cranking pressure is 247.03 PSI.
Your effective boost compression ratio, reflecting static c.r., cam timing, altitude, and boost of 9.0 PSI is 18.22 :1.
V/P (Volume to Pressure Index) is

So...post up your thoughts on whether I should buy new pistons or run this high compression with low boost. Bear in mine I have a TVS 2.3 blower.

Ford Racing makes a 3V head gasket set. About $70 for stock gaskets and TTY hardware. You'll be fine with TTY and 18 psi.

M-6067-3V46

Replace the pressure relief spring in the GT500 oil pump with your stock pressure relief spring. I just installed one in my car and at the advice of several members, I did that too. If I wasn't just an N/A car, I would have absolutely done the TSS gears. $300 insurance policy IMO.

I had a set of the 26125s break on me, I'd rather run the twist ties off a bread bag as valve spring than those again. I haven't heard of the 26113s breaking yet though. A few other members also had 26125s break. Use the steel retainers, no need for titanium.

Plastic 3V tensioners. The 2V metal tensioners have been known to break chain guides.

Oh snap, I ordered some Comp 26125's today. Maybe I'll call tomorrow and see if I can change it up to 26113's. I should have let this thread marinate a bit longer.

The TSS Billet Oil Pump Gears are an absolute must on boosted engines. We have a forum member that lost a brand new turbo'd engine due to stock gears breaking.

The FRPP Head Kit will suffice in your build, which includes TTY hardware. If you decide on a different head gasket and still need TTY hardware, shoot me a PM. I have a brand new set of the bolts I'd sell.

Windage Tray? I'd recommend changing to the FRPP 8.5qt Oil Pan Kit which includes a windage tray and new bolts. About $180 from Tasca.

Are you going to install either limiters or lockouts on your cams? If you go with lockouts, no need to change phasers...but at your current mileage and not locking the cams, I'd change those, too. If you decide not to lock the cams, might as well buy the complete FRPP Timing Kit and change it all.

I plan to install limiters, not lockouts. Based on this thread, I'll call Livernois and purchase theirs.

Based on all the TSS feedback I just read here, I may spend the money on the TSS billet oil pump gears and build the ultimate oil pump. I want to do this build once and have it run for a long, long time. I know it may be overkill with the 2013 GT500 pump, but for $300 more, I'd rather be safe than sorry.

M-6675-MSVT
Check out this thread for more info- http://www.s197forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=108402

Shane, I would confer with my tuner before installing lockouts. Lockouts can cost you torque at low rpm which can negatively affect low speed performance when driving around town. When I had the wrong cams on my car I had difficulty navigating parking lots without stalling the car or having to rev it up like a teenager driving a stick shift for the first time.

My second set of cams were 127450's which worked much better. I did have limiters and the heads I used had bigger valves and upgraded springs.

I spoke with Livernois, they said I could go without limiters or lockout at all and let my tuner take care of things in the tune, but Dave said with the strong valve springs, the phasers would be struggling to operate at the limits, so he said he recommends limiters.

[/LIST]
Why did you select these cams for 98% street duty? Wouldn't you be better served with stock cams for the horsepower you seek and your application?

Two reasons:

1) I got them used at a great price.
2) Matches my build, offers stock-like idle with mild lope and decent gains on top (~30 HP is what I have read). All reviews I've seen on these are positive. Only gripe is having to change springs, but with a full build taking place, the heads will be off anyway.

I went with the Livernois springs with my cams and I have been very happy with them. If you are going to use limiters, I highly recommend not getting the Comp limiters, go with the Livernois limiters instead. The best deal was the FRPP replacement timing chains and phaser kit but they just greatly upped the price. I agree about the TSS gears, that's a no brainer, especially with a blower car.

I'm convinced...so in summary:

• I'll buy Livernois limiters
• I'll buy TSS billet oil pump gears
• Will call in AM to see if I can switch springs to 113's
• Already ordered steel retainers (will skip the titanium)

Up for discussion:

Should I buy new pistons?

Gerald, PM me a price on your JDM slugs from the first build, LOL. I need to find out if they work with my 3.750" stroker crank (vs. a 302 stroker crank like you have which is a 3.800" stroke)

Shane

 

[retfr8flyr]

I have had very good luck with Manley pistons, that's what I have run in my last 5 motors. This piston http://www.modmaxracing.com/product_p/man595500c-8.htm should work out to around 9.5 with the 3.75 stroke, my -6.5 CC pistons are 9.8 cr and your longer stroke should make these very close to my stock stroke engine. I think they would be a good match for your TVS. I really don't trust Mahle pistons in a boosted engine.

 

[mpm_1]

didn't BruceH have a 12:1 compression PD blower low boost build? Diamond pistons though if memory serves...

Shane are you worried more on the CR or the piston brand / spec ?

 

[skwerl]

Shane, my built motor was about 10.7-1 compression with 15 lbs of boost if I remember correctly. Consult with your tuner but I believe you'll be fine. These modular motors run very well with higher compression, much higher than previous motors. It will also give you better performance when you're not in boost. You will just need less boost to get you where you want to be. This means lower intake temps and less stress on the blower also. The tuner will dial back the timing a touch and you'll be golden.

 

[rayS197]

Agreed on the FRPP head changing kit with the TTY bolts. For the oil pump you will get mixed reviews. Ford shipped some of their forged SB's with the 2013 pump part #M-6600-F46 . No need to change the spring as some have said or done themselves. It was stated the backing plate flexing was causing the issues and thats why Ford switched to the steel backing plate. Why would Ford use the gears and warranty the GT500 5.8 motor if the gears are the main issue. I chose to leave it alone. Its a no brainer to buy a quality Balancer. That is a must have!! For the tensioners, same thing on reviews. I chose the steel tensioners. I had a plastic one go out on my F150. All mechanical pieces can fail at some time.... Even brand new phasers. Tell em Earl. All I can vouch for is my build and with around 22 passes, some hot lapped and dyno time with 450 miles on the motor its still running strong.
Good luck whatever you decide to do.!!!

 

[swflastang05]

I would replace the pistons, I've also had good luck with my Manley's so far from Modmax 14cc dish for 3.750 stroker crank 9.7:1 +/-. You might want to be careful with the livernois limiters, some guys have had problems with them failing, IIRC Scott had an issue with his last year. +1 on 2013 GT500 pan and windage tray/gasket. I've had mine off several times and reused without any issues. Agree with plastic timing chain guides, OEM gaskets, etc.

 

[AutoXRacer]

+1 on 2013 GT500 pan and windage tray/gasket. I've had mine off several times and reused without any issues. Agree with plastic timing chain guides, OEM gaskets, etc.

You reused the windage tray/gasket when you removed the pan?
I ordered a new one... Mine had RTV on it from the initial install. Were you able to remove all the RTV and have 100% seal?

What did you clean the gasket surface with that would not damage the seal/material?



Shane, I would run the high compression with low boost...its safer and more efficient. The only down side is you have to have high quality fuel.
As far as the pistons, I am not familiar with the Mahle...all I have belt with are the Manley....three sets now. LOL

 

[swflastang05]

Also, don't discount the tools required to properly assemble the motor, Unless you already have them you'll need to buy, rent, or borrow a set of micrometers, digital calipers, bore dial gauge, ring filer, ring compressor, rear main seal & oil slinger installer (Mike/TexasBlownV8 rents his out), front seal and balancer installer, cam degreeing kit with solid adj lifters and crank socket, etc. Other tools that make it easier but are not necessary include a ring square tool, Freedom racing cam follower tools and a rod vice. I invested a small fortune in tools too when I built my motor, lol. And I already had some of that stuff from building 302/351 windsors back in the day!

 

[swflastang05]

You reused the windage tray/gasket when you removed the pan?
I ordered a new one... Mine had RTV on it from the initial install. Were you able to remove all the RTV and have 100% seal?

What did you clean the gasket surface with that would not damage the seal/material?

Yes I reused the same windage tray gasket multiple times. I took my time and removed the old RTV then cleaned with brake parts cleaner, reinstalled and done. No issues.

 

[DiMora]

More great input. Thanks guys.

I'll continue to research, but for now, here is my shopping list:

• Livernois limiters
• TSS billet oil pump gears
• M-6600-F46 2013 GT500 high volume oil pump
• Comp 26113-24 valve springs
• Comp 700-24 steel retainers (will skip the titanium)
• FRPP M-6067-3V46 head changing kit with TTY bolts
• M-6675-MSVT 2013 GT500 windage tray and pan
• FRPP M-6067-3V46 Head changing kit
• 463458 McLeod 8 bolt lightened Steel flywheel
• M-6279-463V Cam phaser bolts

I'll research the balancer / damper.

I have both my stock GT 6 rib damper as well as a Roush- provided 6-rib overdrive damper which is brand new. If I buy a quality damper like an Innovaters West or ATI, I'll convert to 8 rib.

Keep the opinions rolling in on the 11.5:1 compression.

My buddy has a machine shop, so I suppose I could also have him dish my current pistons in lieu of buying new ones if I really wanted that done. I'll talk to my tuner about tuning a blown motor at the 11.5:1 CR.

Is Tasca the best-priced option on the FRPP parts? Is there a contact on here who is our best connection?

Tech question: I've never pulled an already-broken in set of pistons and rings out of an engine and put them back in (without re-honing and new rings) before. I am thinking about doing so to clean / inspect everything, but I want to know if that is bad before I do something stupid. Specifically, do rings rotate at all as an engine runs, or does break- in seat rings such that the gaps are in a given position and stay that way for the life of the build (thus making removal and changing gap location bad)?

 

[mpm_1]

Unless it's a common part covering a large dish range I don't know if the pistons would have enough meat in them to machine away material without compromising the strength of the piston crown - plus you'd want to re-balance the crank for the new piston mass

piston rings do rotate as the engine runs - no issue to disassemble and re-assemble beyond normal care and good build practices

Steve@Tasca on here for parts

 

[AutoXRacer]

One question...why are you hung up on Comp Cams valve springs?

 

[Badd GT]

I had the same pistons (mahle) and switched to diamond 30064(9.8 comp) from cnc motorsports I used the Livernois springs (made by PAC) which use your factory retainers and still allow your vct to function. Livernois limiters I also used. 2013 gt500 oil pump, I think 6004-F-46 is part number, check, used straight out of the box. I wouldn't use anything less than a Comp SPR cam.(I already had 127500)

I was told by Mahle that there wasn't enough material to dish those pistons, and told by a very reputable tuner on this site that the 11 to 1 comp wouldn't be advisable w/ my m122

 

[8306gt]

I'm sending you a PM about springs and retainers you might be interested in.

 

[DiMora]

One question...why are you hung up on Comp Cams valve springs?

I'm not hung up at all...problem was I didn't wait long enough for this thread to mature and ordered Comp springs before the PAC / Livernois options was brought to my attention. Oh well.

I have struggled with whether I should tear everything down all-the-way to make sure it is all clean and perfect, or...knowing it is a low mileage build...and everything internally is clean and still very oily...just clean it up and run it. You can still see the honing cross-hatching in the cylinder bores.

I'm leaning toward a very general clean-up the short-block - clean piston tops, mating surfaces, re-lube everything and run as-is vs. spending a bunch of time and money on a full tear-down, tank bath at my local machinist, new main cap and side-bolt fasteners, etc... I kind of feel like all that is overkill if I am not going to replace the pistons, re-balance, gap rings, re-hone, etc. Obviously new pistons would necessitate all of the aforementioned.

Regardless of what I do, the existing pistons will either be run by me in this build or sold to someone else who wants a high-comp setup...so I gave them a good cleaning today.

I used this Permatex Gasket Remover today to give the piston tops a nice cleaning...they are now as spotless as can be:

The stuff was amazing...it softened up all the hard carbon. I used my engine stand to make the pistons vertical and did one side at a time...that way the stuff would not run down the piston bores to the rings. I used a brass brush - slightly bigger than a toothbrush - to effectively scrub away all the carbon while not scratching up the piston tops. I then oiled all the bores and turned it over to make sure any gunk loosened up was cleaned up.

I need to talk to my tuner this week to see if he approves of tuning an 11.5:1 engine with a TVS at fairly low boost.

I'll take and post some pics later-on of the cleaned piston tops and some up-close details of the internals, crank and Manley rods.

TSS billet gears are on the way, GT500 oil pump is here, and springs and retainers are ordered as well. I'll probably order the GT500 oil pan and pick-up on Monday.

Why are some folks changing the oil pump spring to swap the stocker with the included spring? Does the existing spring regulate the pump to a different pressure that is less desired? I'll do some searching tonight to see if I can ind a thread.

 

[AnotherS197GT]

The 2013 GT500 pump comes with a pressure relief spring rated at 80 PSI, the stock GT spring is rated for 50 or 60 PSI. Since the VCT is pressure regulated and the GT was designed to be at a certain max pressure, the idea is that the GT500 pump will provide more oil pressure than the 3V was originally designed for. Some people with more experience building engines advised me to swap springs, so I did. Ford Racing told me that I would be fine with the 80 PSI spring too. I don't think it really matters too much one way or the other, but I decided to stick with the spring that was designed for the stock 3V.