Rehagen Racing
Member
I agree. Should take about 2 hours. Our labor rate is $67/hour. We go by actual hours and not by books.
EPAS Terrible Shudder
- Thread starter jsnyng
- Start date
captdistraction
Corner Carver
I struggled with it the first time because the 2011 service manual still had 05-09 segments mixed in for filler (see my updated version here: http://www.chris-wynne.com/mustang/suspension/LCAinstall.pdf )
There's 3 main bolts holding it in, and if you use a heat gun or torch on the bottom of each bolt, the locktite will loosen up and its just a matter of combinations of 18mm ratcheting wrenches and 18mm sockets.
This could be done on a driveway on a pair of jackstands and hand tools. lifting the motor for clearance could be a bit tricky, but for this, I'd almost think its ok to use some wood and carefully lift with a jack from beneath.
Benjamin T
Member
stop bragging lol... i can't even change a set of wheels/tires in half an hour. i would be an epic fail in a pit crew
Benjamin T
Member
email sent. thanks for the help.
Rehagen Racing
Member
Email replied
Benjamin T
Member
i love this. the unpublished, unedited version. my favorite parts:
"say F*CK a lot"
"using absolute magic, and the hands of a baby"
"see subsection on alcoholism counseling"
.... ROTFL
Last edited:
steveespo
Member
- Joined
- Sep 22, 2010
- Posts
- 155
- Reaction score
- 0
Next time I do it I will drop the K member out, fighting those bolts out from underneath was a bitch. Also the 4 hours included realigning the front end to set the toe and steering wheel straight.
Steve
Benjamin T
Member
i tried to do a video, but it sucks... you can't really see anything other than the steering wheel getting blurry as it shakes and you can hear my steering column rattle from the vibration. no oscar for me.
http://youtu.be/qZPMKPDH0u8
http://youtu.be/qZPMKPDH0u8
Vorshlag-Fair
Official Site Vendor
Ford EPAS Feedback Failure?
The Electric Power Assist Steering (EPAS) is a potential problem on 2011-14 Mustangs if you modify the suspension in certain ways. This question often pops up online and I get calls and e-mails from customers on a weekly basis, so I figured I'd put an updated "Public Service Announcement" in our S197 build thread as well as any EPAS specific threads we see on Mustang forums. I am not saying that this will happen to your 2011-14 Mustang, or another Ford automobile with EPAS steering, but it happened to our 2011 GT and we've heard of this on at least 100 more cars, too. A customer of ours recently found this Ford EPAS document, which explains what the electric steering is supposed to be doing.
PDF of EPAS document: http://www.vorshlag.com/documents/Ford_EPAS.pdf
Of course in their effort to make "Pull Drift Compensation" work, to fix a problem most people didn't know or care about, the engineers neglected to see the possible negative side effects to this system when it sees parameters outside of the OEM suspension/tires/bushings. When you take a 2011-up production Mustang and modify any of these items below you can potentially cause the EPAS to go into an erroneous feedback loop.
Modifications that can cause EPAS Feedback Failure
Our issues first occurred with lowered ride height + poly LCA bushings, on an autocross car daily driven on 265mm street tires.
This list may be incomplete, but it shows what we've seen that can cause this failure, and what some other suspension manufacturers and racers that have called and talked to us about have seen. It doesn't always happen when you change these parts, especially if you just do the mods and only daily drive the cars. Often it only takes time or circumstances - when these mods are installed, then eventually the car is driven at road course or autocross event, the feedback failure soon follows. And once it begins to happen it only takes a few circumstances (minimum speeds, a certain amount of steering input speed) for it to happen again and again. Watch the video below for how this happened on our 2011 GT after installing Energy Suspensions front LCA bushings.
Vorshlag EPAS feedback loop video.
The video above has been viewed many thousands of times. It has been sent to Ford engineers, but to my knowledge, Ford Motor Company does not have a fix for this, nor do they even acknowledge that there is a problem. The blame is quickly put onto any aftermarket suspension or wheel/tire modifications. Which is true - those changes can kick off this error, and we have not seen this happen on 100% stock Mustangs.
But... there is an error in their programming, for this to happen so frequently with one simple bushing change. This issue cannot be fixed with a new program upload into the EPAS computer (located within the steering rack assembly), either. All attempts to over-write theses "ones and zeros" have been rebuffed or failed. But Ford Racing has a fix...
Vorshlag does not sell the M-3200-EPAS steering rack, but Rehagen Racing does.
We talked to Ford Racing folks, who knew all about the problem. They developed the "race rack" above for the Boss 302-R/302-S race cars, which all come with this M-3200-EPAS rack installed. It has the same hardware as the production 2011-14 racks, but just has the "auto nibble" or "Pull Drift Compensation" programming turned off. It is a simple $999 fix. They will not over-write this programming onto a used steering rack - they will only sell you a new one. We asked many times while the M-3200-EPAS unit was on backorder for several months.
So, if you have a 2011-14 Mustang and plan on doing a lot of suspension modifications, either AVOID touching the front LCA bushings or using an aftermarket control arm (or even the Boss 302-R LCA) or PLAN for this rack upgrade. The LCA bushing or arm replacement are the two most common causes of EPAS feedback failure, and doing either is almost a 100% guarantee you will see this feedback failure. But if you run a production 2011-14 Mustang in any serious track or autocross competition, you pretty much HAVE to replace these bushings, so plan on the M-3200-EPAS upgrade at the same time.
Why are these bushings imperative to replace? See for yourself. The rear-most lower bushing in the front Lower Control Arm is a HUGE chunk of soft rubber. It is the size of a 8 oz beer can. And if the rubber wasn't bad enough, it isn't even solid - there are channels or voids cast into the bushing, which are filled with hydraulic fluid. This does not make for a stable platform to mount the control arm, through which a majority of the suspension loads pass through.
Bushing Deflection Test
Do this visual bushing deflection test, as it is a real eye opener. Go in a parking lot with your S197 Mustang. Have someone prepared to drive the car while you watch. Stand a few feet beside the car and watch the front wheel. Have them reverse briskly then stop firmly. Watch the front wheel move fore-aft relative to the chassis. It will move a LOT. This is unwanted wheel movement and suspension geometry change in action, and it is very evident. The S197 Mustang is not the only car that suffers from super soft front suspension bushing deflection, as you can do this test on virtually any BMW or Subaru and any number of modern cars and see the same thing happen.
Now imagine the car braking from 100+ mph, on a road course, while turning, and the car is equipped with wider and much grippier R-compound race tires. With the stock Beer Can-sized rubber & hydraulic bushings in place there would be a LOT of front control arm bushing deflection, which results in unwanted toe change to the front geometry. This will make the car unstable under braking. This is undesirable, of course. The fix is upgrading to firmer (polyurethane) front control arm bushings. These parts are low cost, with a less than fun installation, but they do work to control toe change under braking. But once installed... steering rack feedback will most certainly occur. And believe me, when this Feedback Failure happens on the street it is disturbing enough, but on a road course it is downright scary. We found that the only way to stop it once it happened on a road course was to come into the pits, cycle the ignition key, reset the Traction Control system (turning it 100% off), then going back out. After about a few months of this nonsense (while waiting on the M-3200-EPAS to come off of backorder), we finally replaced the rack with the Ford Racing unit and it has never happened again. There were zero other changes or benefits to this $999 steering rack.
I'm not trying to sell folks on some bushing upgrade, or scare you into buying a steering rack we don't sell. Just warning you of a potential recipe for problems if you have one of these cars and do these mods. I don't want people reading our forum posts, buying Mustangs and mimicking our S197 suspension mods, to then blindly fall into the EPAS Feedback Failure. And overall these 2011-14 Mustang GT/Boss302 cars are the Performance Bargain of the Decade, and I highly recommend them to anyone that wants a super reliable 420+ hp V8, RWD sports coupe with outstanding brakes (optional Brembos), and a good basis to build upon - all for a really low price. Heck yes you should drive one, and you might end up buying one, just know that this is one of those potential Achilles heels, and the fix is fairly straight-forward, if a tick costly.
Note: This issue does not affect other S197 Mustangs, like the 2005-2010 models with traditional hydraulic assist power steering, and might not even affect other cars made by other car makers with electric assist steering. More and more automakers are moving from hydraulic to electric steering assist systems, and this technology has MANY benefits (costs, weight, power savings, tunable power assist). I do think these electric racks will become the norm for OEM and racing vehicles alike. Ford just has a glitch here that I think they could fix with a little programming, and they have in the $999 Ford Racing version.
Cheers,
The Electric Power Assist Steering (EPAS) is a potential problem on 2011-14 Mustangs if you modify the suspension in certain ways. This question often pops up online and I get calls and e-mails from customers on a weekly basis, so I figured I'd put an updated "Public Service Announcement" in our S197 build thread as well as any EPAS specific threads we see on Mustang forums. I am not saying that this will happen to your 2011-14 Mustang, or another Ford automobile with EPAS steering, but it happened to our 2011 GT and we've heard of this on at least 100 more cars, too. A customer of ours recently found this Ford EPAS document, which explains what the electric steering is supposed to be doing.
PDF of EPAS document: http://www.vorshlag.com/documents/Ford_EPAS.pdf
Of course in their effort to make "Pull Drift Compensation" work, to fix a problem most people didn't know or care about, the engineers neglected to see the possible negative side effects to this system when it sees parameters outside of the OEM suspension/tires/bushings. When you take a 2011-up production Mustang and modify any of these items below you can potentially cause the EPAS to go into an erroneous feedback loop.
Modifications that can cause EPAS Feedback Failure
- Aftermarket Front Control Arms
- Aftermarket Front Control Arm Bushings
- Radical changes to front suspension geometry
- Significant tire/wheel changes (especially R-compound tires or slicks)
Our issues first occurred with lowered ride height + poly LCA bushings, on an autocross car daily driven on 265mm street tires.
This list may be incomplete, but it shows what we've seen that can cause this failure, and what some other suspension manufacturers and racers that have called and talked to us about have seen. It doesn't always happen when you change these parts, especially if you just do the mods and only daily drive the cars. Often it only takes time or circumstances - when these mods are installed, then eventually the car is driven at road course or autocross event, the feedback failure soon follows. And once it begins to happen it only takes a few circumstances (minimum speeds, a certain amount of steering input speed) for it to happen again and again. Watch the video below for how this happened on our 2011 GT after installing Energy Suspensions front LCA bushings.
Vorshlag EPAS feedback loop video.
The video above has been viewed many thousands of times. It has been sent to Ford engineers, but to my knowledge, Ford Motor Company does not have a fix for this, nor do they even acknowledge that there is a problem. The blame is quickly put onto any aftermarket suspension or wheel/tire modifications. Which is true - those changes can kick off this error, and we have not seen this happen on 100% stock Mustangs.
But... there is an error in their programming, for this to happen so frequently with one simple bushing change. This issue cannot be fixed with a new program upload into the EPAS computer (located within the steering rack assembly), either. All attempts to over-write theses "ones and zeros" have been rebuffed or failed. But Ford Racing has a fix...
Vorshlag does not sell the M-3200-EPAS steering rack, but Rehagen Racing does.
We talked to Ford Racing folks, who knew all about the problem. They developed the "race rack" above for the Boss 302-R/302-S race cars, which all come with this M-3200-EPAS rack installed. It has the same hardware as the production 2011-14 racks, but just has the "auto nibble" or "Pull Drift Compensation" programming turned off. It is a simple $999 fix. They will not over-write this programming onto a used steering rack - they will only sell you a new one. We asked many times while the M-3200-EPAS unit was on backorder for several months.
So, if you have a 2011-14 Mustang and plan on doing a lot of suspension modifications, either AVOID touching the front LCA bushings or using an aftermarket control arm (or even the Boss 302-R LCA) or PLAN for this rack upgrade. The LCA bushing or arm replacement are the two most common causes of EPAS feedback failure, and doing either is almost a 100% guarantee you will see this feedback failure. But if you run a production 2011-14 Mustang in any serious track or autocross competition, you pretty much HAVE to replace these bushings, so plan on the M-3200-EPAS upgrade at the same time.
Why are these bushings imperative to replace? See for yourself. The rear-most lower bushing in the front Lower Control Arm is a HUGE chunk of soft rubber. It is the size of a 8 oz beer can. And if the rubber wasn't bad enough, it isn't even solid - there are channels or voids cast into the bushing, which are filled with hydraulic fluid. This does not make for a stable platform to mount the control arm, through which a majority of the suspension loads pass through.
Bushing Deflection Test
Do this visual bushing deflection test, as it is a real eye opener. Go in a parking lot with your S197 Mustang. Have someone prepared to drive the car while you watch. Stand a few feet beside the car and watch the front wheel. Have them reverse briskly then stop firmly. Watch the front wheel move fore-aft relative to the chassis. It will move a LOT. This is unwanted wheel movement and suspension geometry change in action, and it is very evident. The S197 Mustang is not the only car that suffers from super soft front suspension bushing deflection, as you can do this test on virtually any BMW or Subaru and any number of modern cars and see the same thing happen.
Now imagine the car braking from 100+ mph, on a road course, while turning, and the car is equipped with wider and much grippier R-compound race tires. With the stock Beer Can-sized rubber & hydraulic bushings in place there would be a LOT of front control arm bushing deflection, which results in unwanted toe change to the front geometry. This will make the car unstable under braking. This is undesirable, of course. The fix is upgrading to firmer (polyurethane) front control arm bushings. These parts are low cost, with a less than fun installation, but they do work to control toe change under braking. But once installed... steering rack feedback will most certainly occur. And believe me, when this Feedback Failure happens on the street it is disturbing enough, but on a road course it is downright scary. We found that the only way to stop it once it happened on a road course was to come into the pits, cycle the ignition key, reset the Traction Control system (turning it 100% off), then going back out. After about a few months of this nonsense (while waiting on the M-3200-EPAS to come off of backorder), we finally replaced the rack with the Ford Racing unit and it has never happened again. There were zero other changes or benefits to this $999 steering rack.
I'm not trying to sell folks on some bushing upgrade, or scare you into buying a steering rack we don't sell. Just warning you of a potential recipe for problems if you have one of these cars and do these mods. I don't want people reading our forum posts, buying Mustangs and mimicking our S197 suspension mods, to then blindly fall into the EPAS Feedback Failure. And overall these 2011-14 Mustang GT/Boss302 cars are the Performance Bargain of the Decade, and I highly recommend them to anyone that wants a super reliable 420+ hp V8, RWD sports coupe with outstanding brakes (optional Brembos), and a good basis to build upon - all for a really low price. Heck yes you should drive one, and you might end up buying one, just know that this is one of those potential Achilles heels, and the fix is fairly straight-forward, if a tick costly.
Note: This issue does not affect other S197 Mustangs, like the 2005-2010 models with traditional hydraulic assist power steering, and might not even affect other cars made by other car makers with electric assist steering. More and more automakers are moving from hydraulic to electric steering assist systems, and this technology has MANY benefits (costs, weight, power savings, tunable power assist). I do think these electric racks will become the norm for OEM and racing vehicles alike. Ford just has a glitch here that I think they could fix with a little programming, and they have in the $999 Ford Racing version.
Cheers,
Benjamin T
Member
dammit... i hate being a statistic.
and to think i told myself that i would leave the engine alone because i didn't want any warranty issues and just focus on the suspension. how wrong was i?
terry: thank you for contributing to this thread. i have a question for you: is there any reason why my problem is temperature-dependent? i have none of these issues when the weather is cold. i had my stuff replaced during the winter so i did not experience any symptoms until the weather got warmer up to now. i did that bad video (see post above yours) when it was 27'c outside and the "pull drift compensation" try to pull me into the weeds when i let go of the wheel, but i went back out at night when it was 12'c on the same run and it was perfectly fine.
why ford... why?
and to think i told myself that i would leave the engine alone because i didn't want any warranty issues and just focus on the suspension. how wrong was i?
terry: thank you for contributing to this thread. i have a question for you: is there any reason why my problem is temperature-dependent? i have none of these issues when the weather is cold. i had my stuff replaced during the winter so i did not experience any symptoms until the weather got warmer up to now. i did that bad video (see post above yours) when it was 27'c outside and the "pull drift compensation" try to pull me into the weeds when i let go of the wheel, but i went back out at night when it was 12'c on the same run and it was perfectly fine.
why ford... why?
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Benjamin T
Member
might have something to do with most mustang owners park their cars in the winter... i'm one of the few who drive 365 days a year.
i can't believe i'm saying this, but i'm finding myself wishing for colder weather. since i can't do autocross... ice racing anyone?
i can't believe i'm saying this, but i'm finding myself wishing for colder weather. since i can't do autocross... ice racing anyone?
I have what may be turn out to be a really stupid question about this...
If the 2011 cars are experiencing this problem but the 2012+ cars are not (having read through this entire thread, I get the distinct impression that this is a 2011-only issue), and the steering rack part numbers are different between the 2011 cars and the 2012+ cars, might not a swap to a 2012+ rack also solve the issue? Or would that be no cheaper than a M-3200-EPAS unit?
Admittedly, the M-3200-EPAS solution might be quite a lot better in terms of overall feel and such, and the above presumes full compatibility between the 2012+ steering racks and the 2011 racks (both in terms of physical fit and computer interface at the software and hardware levels)...
If the 2011 cars are experiencing this problem but the 2012+ cars are not (having read through this entire thread, I get the distinct impression that this is a 2011-only issue), and the steering rack part numbers are different between the 2011 cars and the 2012+ cars, might not a swap to a 2012+ rack also solve the issue? Or would that be no cheaper than a M-3200-EPAS unit?
Admittedly, the M-3200-EPAS solution might be quite a lot better in terms of overall feel and such, and the above presumes full compatibility between the 2012+ steering racks and the 2011 racks (both in terms of physical fit and computer interface at the software and hardware levels)...
Benjamin T
Member
i'm still wondering why the 2011 gt500 got to get a tsb to replace the rack but the gt did not...
Sky Render
Stig's Retarded Cousin
Does the EPAS rack have a connector for the CANBUS system? If so, what happens if you disconnect that?
Well, the FRPP rack and the factory replacements are roughly the same price.
You may have a great solution/idea...if it works, and you could get a rack out of the junkyard for $300 or so.
I am very confident that this is primarily a 2011 issue, but I wouldn't say it's "only" 2011's.
That's more or less what I was thinking.
If later units are affected, then they either have the 2011 programming, or it is still possible to get the later models into the feedback loop that causes this problem despite their revised firmware. In the former case, the issue should be showing up in the later population at roughly the same rate as the 2011 population. But is there evidence of that?
Indeed, have we heard of, say, a 2013 or 2014 unit exhibiting these issues? If we have, and the symptoms are clearly indicative of a programming issue instead of a balance or suspension issue, then the FRPP rack is still the way to go.
It may still be the way to go just because of the feel.
Does anyone here have seat time behind an FRPP equipped Mustang and a 2013+ Mustang in "sport" mode who can shed light on the difference in steering feel between the two? The suspensions would probably have to be comparable for the comparison to really be apples to apples. I'm curious as to whether the FRPP unit is worth having even if one is having no issues at all with their current rack in a 2013+ model (i.e., one where you can change the firmness).
Vorshlag's got a 2013 Mustang, and if that model still had the problem then I would have expected them to hit the issue by now. But I've not seen them say anything about it for their 2013 car, only their 2011 car. Maybe I missed something?
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lito
Senior Member
The thing is that the data part is integrated with a switched power source that is separated of the actual power connection that should activate the system, I think the proper test is to remove CAN lines from the connector instead of the whole thing.
I would like to see what happens with this, actually I would want to test the rack in a 3V car but as there are none here except the swap we did, can't. I would like to see how a boss EPAS would work in a 3V car. Giving that the speedo is working, maybe the EPAS works too with the old PCM. As there a lot more PCM calibrations with different templates than EPAS versions, it should work.
Bud
Senior Member
Somebody needs to find out if the 2012 and up racks help this situation, if so I'd gladly sell mine to put funds towards a manual rack 
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