First track day

Discussion in 'Corner Carver Racing Tech Discussion' started by Laga, Sep 19, 2019.

  1. Laga

    Laga Junior Member

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    I went to my first track day at Blackhawk Raceway in South Beloit,IL. I had a blast. It’s a 2 mile road course with 7 turns. There were over 65 racers in three categories. Advanced, Intermediate, and 2 groups of Novice. You also go through a 40 minute classroom before. As a novice, you are given a instructor who first drives your car with you in it for a couple of laps and then you take over. Sessions are 20 minutes. It’s very well organized and they stayed on schedule most of the day until 1 Guy in the Advanced group spun into the tires. Not a lot of damage. It took about 3 sessions until I got an idea of what I was doing. The car had WAY more b#lls than I did. My car has all season tires, and a supercharger with an automatic transmission. Not exactly a road race setup. I installed Hawk HP+ pads on the front, and they did very well. On the front straightaway, I hit 110mph before going into a almost 90° right hand turn. I had no problems stopping hard and ABS never kicked in. In the last session, I think I did pretty good. Definitely going back next year.
     
  2. JJ427R

    JJ427R forum member

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    Good to hear you had a great time and you are now a track day junkie!
    I have yet to run Blackhawk but hoping next year. Northwoods Shelby runs there as well as a couple other tracks you may be interested in so check them out. I've run the Road America event with them the last 7 years. http://www.nwshelbyclub.com/

    BIR Performance Driving School sounds very similar to the class at Blackhawk if you want to venture north to MN.
    Couple hotels in the area actually offer BIR PDS discounts. 6-25 minute session on track and some very good instructors. They also have an SCCA licensing class. https://www.birperformance.com/

    Also check out HPDE Junkie website for track day listings of almost every track in the country. https://hpdejunkie.com/
     
  3. Laga

    Laga Junior Member

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    Thanks. I’ll look into to them.
     
  4. Norm Peterson

    Norm Peterson corner barstool sitter

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    There's also motorsportreg.com which I think allows you to limit your search radius for events.


    Norm
     
  5. Ken04

    Ken04 gm troll basher

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    yes, I use this also. NASA however doesn't use msreg at least in my area so I check their website directly. So far NASA has been a good source of track days locally. Shelby club does a great job of putting on track days although there isn't a whole lot of them. BlackflagSearspoint.jpg
     
  6. Sky Render

    Sky Render Stig's Retarded Cousin S197 Team Member

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    You need some new tires now!
     
  7. Vorshlag-Fair

    Vorshlag-Fair Official Site Vendor Official Vendor

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    You've got a number of things on the car working against you: the all season tires, the Hawk HP+ pads, automatic trans, and a supercharger. Most of these can be fixed, but the auto and supercharger will always cause issue down the line. Be mindful at your next event of coolant temperatures, as the automatic will dump heat into the radiator and the blower will increase inlet air temps so that it makes the engine run hot as well. Normally I would give you a list of things to tackle, in stages, but the simple fact is - this is the wrong Mustang to use on track. You might realize this in a few more events, or maybe you won't...

    [​IMG] [​IMG]

    As a new driver you likely won't tax the brakes too much, but eventually you will want better fluid (Motul RBF600 or better) and you need to move away from Hawk HPS/HP+ pads, as they are not up to the task of sustained high brake temps. I know that the "normal Mustang guys" swear by them, but those people don't do track events... There's a reason why I have a dozen Hawk HP+ memes. ;)

    [​IMG]

    These pads will degrade RAPIDLY on track with a faster driver, which could be you after a few more weekends with a good instructor. Your own increasing driving skills will push the car much further than you can imagine - you might drop 10 seconds a lap over the next 5-10 events - if you stick with this and have good instruction.

    [​IMG]

    But before you get "mod crazy" and try to throw parts and money at this car to make it faster/fix issues, remember that the supercharger is always going to be your worst enemy. The thing is, most folks who find HPDE and get hooked rarely start with "the right car", or even a "remotely appropriate car". Don't take this as an attack on you or your mods, but that's just how this works. There are some charlatans on this very board who will tell you they have some magical tricks to make blower engines never overheat on track, but they don't have fast drivers on track with their wizardry, and they don't track events themselves. They just want your money.

    [​IMG]

    No amount of radiators, intercoolers, heat exchangers, or other tricks will make a supercharged car with more than about 400 whp last a full 20 minute session on track, with a driver that is pushing the car. I've been working on cars and doing track events for over 30 years - there is no magic bullet here. It is just physics - there is only so much front area, only so much airflow available, to cool a heat intensive boosted engine. Boosted horsepower always comes with this nasty price - massive waste heat. I always have this talk with customers who bring us boosted Mustangs and want to do track events. I will no longer take people's money for intercoolers or radiators or other heat management work on these cars - because it is wasted work. 9 times out of 10 they don't listen, then when they frag a few motors they come back and admit "You were right all along... I never should have used this car on track". I don't like being right, especially after people spend tens of thousands of dollars trying to beat physics. GM and Ford have spent billions trying to make GT500s, ZL1s, and ZR1s live at track events with boost. Its all a sham.

    [​IMG] [​IMG]
    If you never buy a thing from my company, so be it - but I race what I sell, and I am not slow. I have more "proof" of my claims than these snake oil salesmen selling cure-alls and doo-dads. ;) Anyway, I'm glad you got to experience an HPDE and hope you get bit by the "track bug". Its a fun addiction and you will learn a LOT of driving skills you could never learn on video games or elsewhere.

    Cheers,
     
    Racer47 likes this.
  8. Someguy

    Someguy Junior Member

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    Vorshlag.... didn't mean to hijack this thread, but just a quick question about what you said about superchargers and track days. So over a year ago I bought a used and modded 06 GT (see my sig for mods)with the intend for it to be my weekend project car and also start my track day affair with. A few months into tinkering with it, I realized it may not be the right car as a newbie to start track days with and and acquired another low-powered rwd track prepped car to start track days instead, with great results.( still keeping this mustang as my weekend car). My home tracks are Sonoma and Thunderhill by the way.

    I'm still debating with myself if it makes financial sense to continue building my mustang to be a trackable weekend car. As you pointed out, the car has couple drawbacks:

    - supercharged and on stock bottom end;
    - doesn't have cooling mods;

    Is there just no way to make any supercharger track worthy without the heat issues, even with a Vortech? I'm aware of the difference between V2 and V3. Will I be better off just converting to NA if I really want to track this car, instead off forking out money to address the engine combo issues(built bottom end, different head unit)? I mean the car feels great on the streets and in the canyons, but hammering it on the track would be a different story. I still think that it will be fun to be flying down the track in a 500hp car, but I may not be ready for this yet both financially and skill wise.
     
  9. Norm Peterson

    Norm Peterson corner barstool sitter

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    Last thoughts first dep't . . . the best thing you could do all around - short of taking the Vortech off entirely - would be to dial the boost back as far as you can (and do whatever re-tuning might be necessary). Focus on the cornering and braking parts of the driving puzzle.


    Don't under-estimate running NA. I used to lap a guy who drove a 427R about 3/4 of the way through almost every session, with something like 100 fewer horses under my car's hood than he had under his. That was back when I only had maybe half a dozen track days under my own belt . . .


    Norm
     
  10. Dino Dino Bambino

    Dino Dino Bambino I have a red car

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    Remove the supercharger kit entirely and shave a few lb off the nose to reduce understeer.
    Tires, suspension, and brakes take priority over outright power on a twisty road course.
     
  11. JJ427R

    JJ427R forum member

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    As one who has gone down this road I can verify what Vorshlag said is pretty much the case. My situation is a bit out of the normal as I drive with hand controls and require an automatic. I have a 2010 Roush 427R that I have been tracking for the last 7 years and have been battling mainly transmission cooling problems. I can usually make it 2 or 3 sessions before it gets heat soaked, but oddly enough I have never really overheated my engine, only my transmission, and at that point it starts shifting itself into overdrive.
    I have added about as many cooling mods as can be done and still have the trans cooling issue. You may be able to make it work a bit better with a manual trans but I would avoid the SC or Turbos on a track car.

    Here is the list of items I've put on my Roush for cooling:
    Performance Automatic Larger Pan
    JDM Engineering Overflow catch can
    B&M Racing 20,500 BTU Trans cooler (Also tried the Mishimoto with a fan but that caused negative back pressure for radiator)
    Kenny Brown/Fluidyne Triple Flow Triple Pass Radiator and the same KB/Fluidyne HE with dual fans
    Roush 7 bar front grille
    MMD Hood vents

    Now my current issue is I bought a 2018 GT PP1 with the 10 speed automatic hoping it would be much better than the Roush. Turns out it's much worse and overheated, went into limp mode, and completely shut down after only 12 minutes on track at Road America..... sadly I was eating up all the other cars in my group....
     
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2019
  12. Laga

    Laga Junior Member

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    Late model Mustangs are notorious for transmission and rear end overheating.
     
  13. Laga

    Laga Junior Member

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    With the Vortech you have a couple of options. You can run water/meth injection. This will help with the heat soak. You can also convert to E85. I just finished the process last week with my 05. All it took was a new fuel pump and tune. The butt-o-meter definitely shows an increase. You will still be safe at 500 rwhp with the correct tune from Lito. Anything over that and you’ll have to start thinking forged internals. But that will cascade into the rest of the drivetrain then.
     
  14. Someguy

    Someguy Junior Member

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    Thanks all for the replies. I think I will rank my preferred options as follows:

    1- bring the boost down- maybe just a pulley/belt swap or bypass valve/bov plus a tune? Need to do some research, but I'm thinking maybe going next size up on pulley, maybe it will cut 2-4 psi and give up maybe 50rwhp? And reduce some heat that's produced?Seems the easiest and cheapest first step to try.. Thoughts?

    2- water/meth injection and tune- maybe cost just a tad more in money and time to try, but would probably maintain my hp level which I think is a ticking time bomb for the stock bottom end. I think my engine is fine for streets and canyon runs with this, but not sure for beating on it on the track.

    3- Pull off the entire SC system and tune- only costs is my time to pull it and the cost of the tune for NA?…. Maybe the best option as far as not having to worry about blowing up the engine or the heat issue, but with just NA power level I may not stick with this car. I'd probably consider rebuilding the bottom end and deal with the headaches associated with it or change to another higher power platform instead.

    I'm aware with any options I'll also need to throw in basic cooling mods (rad and fan) at the minimum. I believe I got the basics in brakes/tires/ suspension for reliable moderate track use. I think since I had acquired a prepped miata for driver development and headache-free beatdowns at the tracks, thoughts of tracking the mustang is really just an outlet for driving a fast car in ways that I cant do on the streets. I just need this car to be able to survive through a few sessions on the track so that I can enjoy it, but to really pushing limits (both the car and myself) for learning's sake I'll save it for the beater miata.



    Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk
     
  15. Sky Render

    Sky Render Stig's Retarded Cousin S197 Team Member

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    Rear end only overheats if you're using a shitty clutch-type diff.
     
  16. Laga

    Laga Junior Member

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  17. JJ427R

    JJ427R forum member

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    That is very interesting to see as I am in process of a lemon law claim thru the State of Minnesota against Ford for almost exactly what they specified in their case.
    Ford sells these cars as supposedly track capable with the added options such as the PP1 and PP2 packages, that also includes Track Mode with Track Apps, which Ford states in their manual is "Only to be used on track". My car only made it 12 minutes before it went into limp mode on track. I also filed a complaint with Ford regarding how unsafe it is for that to happen while you are on a track. I have no doubt if another car been right behind me when mine shut down I could have very easily been rear ended. I did have HPDE insurance, but no insurance can save you from getting yourself or someone else injured or killed.
     
  18. Laga

    Laga Junior Member

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    Good luck with your case. These articles say Ford knew there was a problem and basically put a band-aid on them.
     
  19. Sky Render

    Sky Render Stig's Retarded Cousin S197 Team Member

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  20. JJ427R

    JJ427R forum member

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    Sometimes threads take a detour....