I'm coming to the reality that the members of this forum (self included) can and will break anything you give us the opportunity to...
amen. i break everything lol
Fuck this car.
- Thread starter V8SRGR8
- Start date
amen. i break everything lol
Wow, lots and lots of stuff to read.
For the record, my 99 cobra was built to be high revving, made 562 rwhp and 486 ft/lbs. peak torque at 6k and peak hp at 7400. I was using race gas in the motor. had to put a little pump gas in the car because my drum didn't show up on time. Tried to put as little as possilbe.
Didn't think i'd make it to the track, added another 5 gallons. got to the track, and added turbo blue, backed timing down a degree for safety. all seemed well. put the degree back in and boom. Too much with just 5 gallons of pump gas in the car.
The car was running 18psi on an strim , 4v motor.
My point is, it doesn't take much to cause a motor failure. My tuner at the time told me to run just race gas, I didn't blame him for the motor going, wasn't his fault.
I know the newer cobra motors seem to be making good power on pump gas. My 04 whippled I had last year was making about 550 on pump gas and ran great. I was running sunoco 94 in it. I figure thats about as good as your gonna find at a pump.
I get all my tuning now done by Ken @ MD these days and trust him very much. They don't do a ton of GM stuff and I knew Livernois did and had heard good things about them.
I made the 5 hour trip a couple of times to have them tune my vette. The first time for cams and headers, and the 2nd time for my S/C. I toured their facilities and was very impressed with what I saw. The N/A tune was .5 better in the 1/4 than the base tune that was put in the car, and the drivability was perfect.
After adding the s/c I had another tune put on the car and had problems with the trans. Never seemed to work right. I decided to make a shorter trip to have the car tuned by an "A6 Trans Tuning Expert". After 8 hours out of town, I had nothing but an even more jacked up transmission and some burned up clutches. I took the car back to Dan. It took all of 5 minutes of Dan looking at the tune to tell me where and why the problems were there.
He retuned the car, and again, perfect. The car made 603 rwhp on pump gas. Thats coming out of a 6.2L with only 6psi. He told me then. Absolutely no more boost without pump gas.
The one thing I kept reading is the motor only let go at 4k. Who says the motor got hurt on that pull? Thats when it finally let go, doesn't mean it didn't take an initial hit on one of the WOT pulls.
I for one would trust Livernois to do my motor. Not only have I seen their setup first hand. My tuner whom I would trust with any of my stangs, trusts them to put their engine in his own car.
What was the most power that was pushed in this car with pump gas?? 600? 650? 700?
For the record, my 99 cobra was built to be high revving, made 562 rwhp and 486 ft/lbs. peak torque at 6k and peak hp at 7400. I was using race gas in the motor. had to put a little pump gas in the car because my drum didn't show up on time. Tried to put as little as possilbe.
Didn't think i'd make it to the track, added another 5 gallons. got to the track, and added turbo blue, backed timing down a degree for safety. all seemed well. put the degree back in and boom. Too much with just 5 gallons of pump gas in the car.
The car was running 18psi on an strim , 4v motor.
My point is, it doesn't take much to cause a motor failure. My tuner at the time told me to run just race gas, I didn't blame him for the motor going, wasn't his fault.
I know the newer cobra motors seem to be making good power on pump gas. My 04 whippled I had last year was making about 550 on pump gas and ran great. I was running sunoco 94 in it. I figure thats about as good as your gonna find at a pump.
I get all my tuning now done by Ken @ MD these days and trust him very much. They don't do a ton of GM stuff and I knew Livernois did and had heard good things about them.
I made the 5 hour trip a couple of times to have them tune my vette. The first time for cams and headers, and the 2nd time for my S/C. I toured their facilities and was very impressed with what I saw. The N/A tune was .5 better in the 1/4 than the base tune that was put in the car, and the drivability was perfect.
After adding the s/c I had another tune put on the car and had problems with the trans. Never seemed to work right. I decided to make a shorter trip to have the car tuned by an "A6 Trans Tuning Expert". After 8 hours out of town, I had nothing but an even more jacked up transmission and some burned up clutches. I took the car back to Dan. It took all of 5 minutes of Dan looking at the tune to tell me where and why the problems were there.
He retuned the car, and again, perfect. The car made 603 rwhp on pump gas. Thats coming out of a 6.2L with only 6psi. He told me then. Absolutely no more boost without pump gas.
The one thing I kept reading is the motor only let go at 4k. Who says the motor got hurt on that pull? Thats when it finally let go, doesn't mean it didn't take an initial hit on one of the WOT pulls.
I for one would trust Livernois to do my motor. Not only have I seen their setup first hand. My tuner whom I would trust with any of my stangs, trusts them to put their engine in his own car.
What was the most power that was pushed in this car with pump gas?? 600? 650? 700?
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The very most fucked up thing is that ONLY LIVERNOIS WAS ALLOWED TO INSPECT THE MOTOR. As soon as I saw that, I knew the OP was fucked. I totally agree with whomever said that performance warranties are SHIT. Personally I wouldn't buy water from Livernois if my fucking house was on fire. THey could have done something to help the OP other than saying "I didn't do it".
your run pump gas on close to 700 rwhp and blame the builder, lol, i don't care if it's a 2000hp shortblock, i wouldn't cover it either
just because my uncles' friends' at works nephew's wifes' cousins friend made x power on pump gas, doesn't mean it's right
edit:
and on top of that, no legitamite tuner i know, Ken Bjonnes, Eric Brooks, Dan Millen, Fred Cook is going to be trying to squeeze out 700 rwhp on pump gas,
again, i knew on this particular pull when the motor went that it wasn't set for that power, but it was before that, and again, that could be when the piston took the initial damage,
livernois has also posted pictures showing detonation in all the cylinders haven't they?
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vinnybarber
forum member
watchout beefcake. you might get called a
internet expert.
internet expert.
V8SRGR8
Cunning Linguist
KB and Shelby run tunes on GT500s for 700hp+ on pump gas. Yes, I know, bigger displacement, but still 18+ pounds of boost with a PD blower on the dreaded pump gas. But I suppose they are not "legitimate" tuners.
As far as pictures go, like I've said before, I saw a picture of 1 piston and 3 1/2 rings. I want to see them for myself, in person. Do what you want. Buy a bunch of stuff from them. I really don't give a shit.
As far as pictures go, like I've said before, I saw a picture of 1 piston and 3 1/2 rings. I want to see them for myself, in person. Do what you want. Buy a bunch of stuff from them. I really don't give a shit.
I have taken the time to read this whole thing, and I normally don’t chime in on threads like this but…. I just can’t help it.
I tread lightly when I say this, but I think this is personal to you because of the issues I have read about with you and MMR. I don't believe that is is going on hereand based on your comment, I have come up with the following scenerio:
So, the OP should have paid someone to evaluate the engine? Wait, that's not fair to Livernois. Then I guess Livernois should have paid someone to inspect it? But wait, would that be fair to the OP? Maybe the OP and Livernois should have split the inspection costs through a 3rd party, then everyone is equally vested in the inspection and no one gets the shaft. Then the party at fault reinburses the other. That may work.
Yeah, and the 4032 alloy is less forgiving (higher silicon content) when detonation is present. I believe at 18#, a 2618 piston and race fuel should have been in this car. The 2618 alloy also has a higher tensile strength. Anyone can argue it, but it is my opinion and while I know this, I also know that when combined with $1.25 it will get you a soda. With that being said, the 4032 would probably have been fine had there been proper fuel in the car.
Agreed, everyone I see running big numbers on “pump gas”, tears stuff up. It’s really like screwing a hooker without a rubber. You may get lucky once or twice but eventually your number will come up.
First, I want to say that I feel for your pocket book, that you have a really nice car and for the most part, have been very respectful to the vendor to this point. Don’t worry, I have no affiliation with them nor have I purchased anything from them, ever. That being said…
Your Shelby may last for a while, but eventually it will hiccup and then what? Are you going to sell it as well? Who will be to blame then? I don’t blame Livernois for this ordeal. They actually fixed the damage for $1500? Not bad considering what was trashed. You and your boy (tuner friend) had your minds made up as to who was to take the blame on this one. What can Livernois do? Buy you a new engine because you deliberately abused the one they initially sent..? As for the pictures, do you really need to see more pictures of the stuff you broke?
Also, there is all this talk of warranty… You are right there is a warranty. If you crank it up and there is no oil pressure, you are correct… warranty. Besides that, you are on your own. There are too many variables related to a build like this that no one who builds the engine can take responsibility for. If there was a bearing issue or something of that nature, you may have a legitimate complaint. Now there is a “special warranty” that few people know about… This is the one where you send someone your vehicle; they put the whole thing together, tune it, and deliver it to you. This is “special” because there is only one person to blame for a failure, provided the correct fuel was run in the car and guess what… You would have voided this one as well.
In my experience, the best warranty you can have is the one you honor to yourself when you tear something up you build and pay yourself to fix it. This is the reason I build my own engines and transmissions.
I tread lightly when I say this, but I think this is personal to you because of the issues I have read about with you and MMR. I don't believe that is is going on hereand based on your comment, I have come up with the following scenerio:
So, the OP should have paid someone to evaluate the engine? Wait, that's not fair to Livernois. Then I guess Livernois should have paid someone to inspect it? But wait, would that be fair to the OP? Maybe the OP and Livernois should have split the inspection costs through a 3rd party, then everyone is equally vested in the inspection and no one gets the shaft. Then the party at fault reinburses the other. That may work.
Yeah, and the 4032 alloy is less forgiving (higher silicon content) when detonation is present. I believe at 18#, a 2618 piston and race fuel should have been in this car. The 2618 alloy also has a higher tensile strength. Anyone can argue it, but it is my opinion and while I know this, I also know that when combined with $1.25 it will get you a soda. With that being said, the 4032 would probably have been fine had there been proper fuel in the car.
Agreed, everyone I see running big numbers on “pump gas”, tears stuff up. It’s really like screwing a hooker without a rubber. You may get lucky once or twice but eventually your number will come up.
First, I want to say that I feel for your pocket book, that you have a really nice car and for the most part, have been very respectful to the vendor to this point. Don’t worry, I have no affiliation with them nor have I purchased anything from them, ever. That being said…
Your Shelby may last for a while, but eventually it will hiccup and then what? Are you going to sell it as well? Who will be to blame then? I don’t blame Livernois for this ordeal. They actually fixed the damage for $1500? Not bad considering what was trashed. You and your boy (tuner friend) had your minds made up as to who was to take the blame on this one. What can Livernois do? Buy you a new engine because you deliberately abused the one they initially sent..? As for the pictures, do you really need to see more pictures of the stuff you broke?
Also, there is all this talk of warranty… You are right there is a warranty. If you crank it up and there is no oil pressure, you are correct… warranty. Besides that, you are on your own. There are too many variables related to a build like this that no one who builds the engine can take responsibility for. If there was a bearing issue or something of that nature, you may have a legitimate complaint. Now there is a “special warranty” that few people know about… This is the one where you send someone your vehicle; they put the whole thing together, tune it, and deliver it to you. This is “special” because there is only one person to blame for a failure, provided the correct fuel was run in the car and guess what… You would have voided this one as well.
In my experience, the best warranty you can have is the one you honor to yourself when you tear something up you build and pay yourself to fix it. This is the reason I build my own engines and transmissions.
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Now there is a “special warranty” that few people know about… This is the one where you send someone your vehicle; they put the whole thing together, tune it, and deliver it to you. This is “special” because there is only one person to blame for a failure, provided the correct fuel was run in the car and guess what… You would have voided this one as well.
In my experience, the best warranty you can have is the one you honor to yourself when you tear something up you build and pay yourself to fix it. This is the reason I build my own engines and transmissions.
Agreed 100%. It's like when I bent an axle on my new GT500. I didn't blame ford that I was doing 5200 rpms on a pullied tuned car pulling 1.49's.
I bought new axles, put them in, and moved on. And I work at a friggin dealership, I could have got it covered if I wanted to. I'll save that for stuff that is actuallly Ford's fault
It has been argued that the very definition of insanity is: "Performing the same task repetitively, while each time expecting different results."
I would like to believe most of us knew this already and a few are or will be getting "on board" in the near future. The solution to a problem like this, is not "state of the art." It is simply common sense driven by available funding.
EscapedGreg
WANA PLY
Unfortunatlly I see it day in and out in the automotive industry that the people you thought would know this already DO NOT. So it is great for people to read this post, I just hope they make their choice on which companys to choose off more than just this post.
vinnybarber
forum member
Some people never get it
V8SRGR8
Cunning Linguist
There are a bunch of these cars on the road with the stage 3 KB setup and or supersnakes out there, and very few engine failures. I'm not worried about this one. As far as what I'd do if something happens, that depends on cost and time, and that's why I parted and sold the GT. It's a good thing I did too, because if I had waited for Livernois to get that motor back to me, the car would have been on the lift for about 5 goddamned months. And I deliberately abused the engine? Are you fucking nuts? Why would I intentionally do that? I just love spending 13k on engine builds just to watch them blow up, douchebag.
Me and "my boy" had serious questions from the get go because of what we saw when we pulled the heads. Go back and read the beginning of this thread. All 4 slugs on the passenger side had perfect compression, when all four on the driver's side were all over the place. All four cylinders on the passenger side were perfect, while all four on the driver's side showed scoring on the walls. So yes, we thought there was a possibility of a machining problem. Livernois started blaming the tune IMMEDIATELY over the phone and claimed "we have never had a failure like this" and "these motors don't come back". This proved to be false. Another member on this board had an identical piston failure at 13 psi, 500 or so HP, and 1000 miles on their 298 stroker. Livernois' engine builder later stated over the phone they had indeed had a few failures. When speaking with my tuner over the phone, they suggested every possible tuning scenario that could void the "warranty". All of these were disproven through discussion, leaving only it must have been detonation because our super perfect engines never ever break, just ask us and we'll tell you...BTW, send us $2500 ASAP. I also had some people here send me PMs about Mahle pistons having weak ringlands. So to say there were some serious unanswered questions about workmanship and/or materials here is an understatement.
To have the party who stands to lose the most in a situation in terms of money and/or reputation do the whole investigation and make a final determination is just retarded. That would be like empowering somebody who rearends your car to do the accident investigation and then decide whether or not they have to pay you for damages. To insinuate that I or my tuner are some shady characters looking for a handout is wrong, and you can kiss my white ass for implying that.
Vinny, I do "get it". This was a lesson hard learned for me. I won't do another build like this, won't trust recommendations of parts sellers, and certainly won't believe any claims of warranty.
vinnybarber
forum member
Yes I agree it's a hard lesson to learn. My first motor cost
my 15000. So I know how you feel.
But I also learned it doesn't take much to see that damn
d word to show it's head.
I don't think you or your tuner did anything on purpose.
But it doesn't take much to send one through the hood
but I do know there are tuners
and there are tuners
I spent half the money for my second motor than my first
one cost. I have been running the second for 2yrs now.
I saw your pics and I gave you my honest opinion.
I know mike, Rick and dan personally and if I thought
they were wrong I would go to bat for you myself
my 15000. So I know how you feel.
But I also learned it doesn't take much to see that damn
d word to show it's head.
I don't think you or your tuner did anything on purpose.
But it doesn't take much to send one through the hood
but I do know there are tuners
and there are tuners
I spent half the money for my second motor than my first
one cost. I have been running the second for 2yrs now.
I saw your pics and I gave you my honest opinion.
I know mike, Rick and dan personally and if I thought
they were wrong I would go to bat for you myself
Understand, I wasn't implying that you are some unscruplious character, looking for a handout. I was just saying that the engine detonated, sent the rings through the pistons and presto, blown engine. It is common nature to look for the culprit as far away from yourself as possible. I don't blame you for that, but facts are facts. No one who has built an engine even a handful of times, will need a "fine toothed comb" for this failure analysis.
As far as the $13K you "spent" goes, wouldn't it have been far cheaper to properly tune the car on a higher octane fuel and also have a secondary tune for the street at a lower boost level? That's what is normally done but what the hey, live dangerously, it's only money. Oh, $13K and no billet parts? What gives?
Before you resort to name calling, you might want to note that I am not the person who bought an engine, blew it up and then traded my car to buy a GT500 that I am in the process of blowing up. If I remember correctly, Lethal's GT500 bit the dust in about the same fashion but why learn from other people's failures, when you can learn from your own.
Note: Vinny just stated that he spent half of that and he's pulling the chute.
...and yes, I am nuts.
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Forward Performance
Senior Member
Livernois stroker = 5000.00
Livernois stage 3 Heads = 3000.00
Misc arp bolts, gaskets, fluids = 1000.00
13k is pretty close with install and tuning.
Livernois stage 3 Heads = 3000.00
Misc arp bolts, gaskets, fluids = 1000.00
13k is pretty close with install and tuning.
Also, I have a hard time buying the fact that you have $13K in a forged crank (not billet), '05+ alum block, h-beam (non-billet) rods, non-coated forged pistons, and screw it [insert the heads/cams of your choice here].
Note: Vinny just stated that he spent half of that and he's pulling the chute.
...and yes, I am nuts.
V8SRGR8
Cunning Linguist
Vinny, I know you're just trying to help, and I do appreciate your input as you have far more experience than me.
Great! Next time you see them, ask them:
1. Why did they lie to me?
This is the whole thing that just gets to me. It's not the money anymore, because I'm over that. It's the fact that if there was nothing to hide, why was I lied to, and why can't I see the pistons for myself? It is my opinion that during this ordeal, they used their reputation as leverage to conceal certain things from me. Why tell me there were no other failures when they knew full well there had been? What's the purpose of that? They already had my money. Why was it so damned hard to get an itemized invoice for the repair charges?
What would you guys have said about this failure if it was an MMR motor instead of a Livernois? Would you have been so forgiving of the builder, or would there be another 500 "MMR sucks" replies? MMR has had it's share of issues, but they have built some great motors too. I have seen MMR motors fail, and have seen them repaired by MMR. Livernois has built some great motors, but are also capable of making mistakes. I heard great things about their products and service, so I chose them hoping that if I had issues they would be covered. I am not impressed with how this was handled AT ALL, and I'm not the only one.
Great! Next time you see them, ask them:
1. Why did they lie to me?
a. re: 298 3V strokers, "never had a failure" & "these engines don't come back" - another S197 forum member with identical failure at lower power levels and same mileage. Who knows how many more?
b. stating publicly "we haven't made a final determination" AFTER telling me directly "there is no warranty on this engine" (see timeline of posts in this thread) and requesting $2500 payment for repairs.
2. Please return my damaged pistons to me as promised by their company on two seperate occasions. This will be the third request for return of my property.b. stating publicly "we haven't made a final determination" AFTER telling me directly "there is no warranty on this engine" (see timeline of posts in this thread) and requesting $2500 payment for repairs.
This is the whole thing that just gets to me. It's not the money anymore, because I'm over that. It's the fact that if there was nothing to hide, why was I lied to, and why can't I see the pistons for myself? It is my opinion that during this ordeal, they used their reputation as leverage to conceal certain things from me. Why tell me there were no other failures when they knew full well there had been? What's the purpose of that? They already had my money. Why was it so damned hard to get an itemized invoice for the repair charges?
What would you guys have said about this failure if it was an MMR motor instead of a Livernois? Would you have been so forgiving of the builder, or would there be another 500 "MMR sucks" replies? MMR has had it's share of issues, but they have built some great motors too. I have seen MMR motors fail, and have seen them repaired by MMR. Livernois has built some great motors, but are also capable of making mistakes. I heard great things about their products and service, so I chose them hoping that if I had issues they would be covered. I am not impressed with how this was handled AT ALL, and I'm not the only one.
NastyStang113
Made in U.S.A.
Jared's GT500 was actually running C16. The car was making a lot of power at 22 lbs of boost and than was being shifted at 6,800 RPMs. The tune was fine and it wasn't running pump gas. Jared said it before the car just had the shit beat out of it and that's why it blew up.
Lets say $500 roughly for tuning, that's $3500 for install?? Damn where are all you guys willing to spend that in installs? Bring your cars to me I'll install them for $3000 and save you another $500
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Kinda what I was thinking.
Forward Performance
Senior Member
Well...Going rate to R and R a motor is 1500.00, then add motor assembly, blower assembly,.....yada yada...yada
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