Fuck this car.

[V8SRGR8]

Thanks Mike - I was just asking the OP/owner to respond to your post.

They took their time putting together their response. I will do the same.

Here is a pic of the piston they enclosed.

 

[ChevyKiller]

ahhhh.. don't let them get you ya. 5 years ago he was trying to push 15psi though his vortech on a stock block. hahah

matter of fact I started to mod much more ever since I met him(and break stuff). Out of the 50 motors he broke I dont think he blamed his tuner once. hahah Until the verdict comes out(if it does), we will just have to see. I think many of us have seen PFM and had to take the hit, as stated from the post above. Hopefully, you wont have too and someone will own up.

Ouch - I think you are talking about me. BUT - at least let's get the facts straight - I DID run 15 psi through a vortech on the stock block for over a year and didn't blow up the motor or have any damage to the motor but I DIDN'T RUN PUMP GAS THROUGH IT EITHER. I ran VP110 with that set-up at 15 psi and ran pump gas on a 9 psi street tune...

I have had a total of 3 ST Motorsports Built motors let go.

#1 - directly because of a bad set of heads from JDM engineering that caused a valve to tap a piston

#2 - directly because of bad wiring and electrical system that lead to overheating issues that ultimately resulted in lifting a head (that motor was quickly repaired and sold and has been in use by the buyer for almost 2 years)

#3 - The latest Boss 330" motor directly from piston clearances being 'off' causing rattling and ultimately the oil lands to fail. (caught with minimal damage and being repaired and already sold)

I have never had a 'tuning issue' to warrant blaming a tuner - that is the only reason I haven't blamed a tuner for any problems. Believe me, I would easily if it were the case. I have always been 'involved' in the tunes however and don't even attempt to run big boost on pump gas ever and request my tunes stay on the semi rich and low timing side and all of my tuners have done this and that's why I haven't had a tuning issue ever IMO.

It is what it is and all I can say is my next motor will not be built by a california company and I will not skimp on the parts it takes to handle big boost and power...

It has been an expensive and long learning process but I a pretty confident now in my knowledge of what is required for what I want to do...

And BTW: NO WAY ON EARTH is a reliable 1000 rwhp motor going to cost you 5 grand. If Livernois told you that $5000 motor was built for a thousand HP all day - then they are wrong for telling you that and you are wrong for believing or thinking $5000 can buy you a stout 1000 rwhp motor.

I wouldn't run 650 rwhp through a $5,000 motor personally. 5 grand should barely cover a good set of pistons, rods, and a crank...

 

[klaw]

They took their time putting together their response. I will do the same.

Here is a pic of the piston they enclosed.

Sorry - wasn't trying to rush you into a response. Just thought the pictures might be interesting.

 

[V8SRGR8]

If Livernois told you that $5000 motor was built for a thousand HP all day - then they are wrong for telling you that and you are wrong for believing or thinking $5000 can buy you a stout 1000 rwhp motor.

Exactly.

I don't think it's out of line though to expect 600s from a built & blown stroker motor.

The shop here has a couple MMR street mod 950s making big power and holding together - on pump gas. There was also an aluminator at the shop with an almost identical setup (T-trim), and his motor is holding together. SAME TUNER. Seems like they made the better choice. I supposedly bought a "better" motor with Livernois. How come mine's the only one with a chunk missing out of the piston?

 

[ChevyKiller]

Exactly.

I don't think it's out of line though to expect 600s from a built & blown stroker motor.

The shop here has a couple MMR street mod 950s making big power and holding together - on pump gas. There was also an aluminator at the shop with an almost identical setup (T-trim), and his motor is holding together. SAME TUNER. Seems like they made the better choice. I supposedly bought a "better" motor with Livernois. How come mine's the only one with a chunk missing out of the piston?

I agree - you should see 600's easily but I still wouldn't have done it on pump gas. Don't make the mistake of thinking what a 4 valve does is the same thing a 3V will do - it is apples and oranges. Once again, I'm not saying the pump gas had anything to do with it but it sure didn't help.

And anybody who used MMR did not make a better choice...sorry. They have more failures than anybody else - including livernois.

I wish you the best of luck and hopefully you get some resolution and definitive answers. I'm sure you want to know exactly what happened as we all do.

It's too late now, but honestly - If it were me, I would have sent the motor to an independent place from Livernois and your tuner to get an assessment. It's very hard to get an 'objective' diagnosis any other way.

 

[Dan Millen]

I have been turning a wrench for 23 years. I have rebuilt engines, trans, rears, engineered suspension parts, everything you can think of. Most of the time I did that work because I got screw by some tech or shop owner who didn't know what the fuck they are doing. I found that with some practice I could do things better then the "pros". So now, I do 99.9% of my own work.

Seeing firsthand what an excellent Tech Chris at Excessive is, he is the only person in the country I let work on my car besides for myself. I'm not saying he is perfect, but he is a great tech that treats his customer’s right. I have seen him build and tune 700+ hp cars on pump gas and get years of reliable use both driving on the street and racing.

Plus, I personally have looked at the logs and the tune from the pull when the engine blew. Everything was conservative at best. The car made less than 600 hp on the pull just prior to the failure, and when it popped, it was prior to the peak of the power band, about half way through the revs when it started spraying oil everywhere.

Dan, with that said, I have to tell you IMHO I really think you guys did not machine that block right. Whoever was working on it prob forgot to finish a bank, and it just wasn't right. That is the ONLY thing that is going to cause a whole bank to go bad. Every single cylinder on that bank is fucked, while the other side looks great.

I have to tell you, Josh and I were working on the same build. The whole idea behind buying your 1000 hp block was to have the insurance that at 650-700 rwhp, the thing is gonna hold together. But at this point, unless you guys straighten him out, there is no way in hell I am buying a block from you guys. Racing is expensive enough for the avg Joe. I can't afford to do it twice because a company won’t back there product up when it was running at 40% under capacity at the time it came apart.

I know you guys have a great rep. I have your parts in my car and I love em. But damn son, if you guys don't make good on the warranty or your name is gonna be mud. It doesn't matter what your "experts" say the problem is, you are gonna lose money, and not from just me.

Hey thanks for replying,

I am sure the people working on the car and the tune are good people and I am sure they qualified. In my opinion I don't agree with 18 lbs of boost and pump gas. The graphs the air fuel can be dead on but if the engine starts to detonate its over. Your not gonna find many people that think that 9.7:1 on a 3 valve with that amount of boost is gonna live (pump gas only).

It seems like you have already came up with the conclusion that if we find that the pistons were detonated we should automatically warranty the engine?

I guess I am a little confused on how you came to that point?

We don't warranty tuning mistakes in our warranty, I don't think anyone can. But this does bring up a good point, should we offer a warranty that would cover customer damage relating to tuning?

Maybe this would be an extra charge?

Remember guys there has been no direction on what we are gonna do with the customer. I am not denying a approving a warranty, at this point I am just replying to someone else's post.

Thanks

Dan

 

[SD07GT]

Hey thanks for replying,

I am sure the people working on the car and the tune are good people and I am sure they qualified. In my opinion I don't agree with 18 lbs of boost and pump gas. The graphs the air fuel can be dead on but if the engine starts to detonate its over. Your not gonna find many people that think that 9.7:1 on a 3 valve with that amount of boost is gonna live (pump gas only).

It seems like you have already came up with the conclusion that if we find that the pistons were detonated we should automatically warranty the engine?

I guess I am a little confused on how you came to that point?

We don't warranty tuning mistakes in our warranty, I don't think anyone can. But this does bring up a good point, should we offer a warranty that would cover customer damage relating to tuning?

Maybe this would be an extra charge?

Remember guys there has been no direction on what we are gonna do with the customer. I am not denying a approving a warranty, at this point I am just replying to someone else's post.

Thanks

Dan

Dan,

I have a question ... How can you have one bank be damaged and not the other ? ?

If you wipe out a couple of pistons and damage starts to occur on the cylinder walls wouldn't you see the same results in the other bank . If total timing is 16* an the A/F is around the 11.5 range , what would keep the other bank intact ? Is it possible that the fuel flashed over quicker in bank one causing spark knock ?

Is it possible that IAT and coolant temps had something to do with this as far as circulation , I wouldn't think that one bank couldn't get that much hotter to cause spark knock than the other ?

I would think there would be some kind of damage to cylinders one -four even if its minimal ..but to come out clean just makes me think that there was something else going on

Thanks

 

[marcspaz]

Hey thanks for replying,

I am sure the people working on the car and the tune are good people and I am sure they qualified. In my opinion I don't agree with 18 lbs of boost and pump gas. The graphs the air fuel can be dead on but if the engine starts to detonate its over. Your not gonna find many people that think that 9.7:1 on a 3 valve with that amount of boost is gonna live (pump gas only).

It seems like you have already came up with the conclusion that if we find that the pistons were detonated we should automatically warranty the engine?

I guess I am a little confused on how you came to that point?

We don't warranty tuning mistakes in our warranty, I don't think anyone can. But this does bring up a good point, should we offer a warranty that would cover customer damage relating to tuning?

Maybe this would be an extra charge?

Remember guys there has been no direction on what we are gonna do with the customer. I am not denying a approving a warranty, at this point I am just replying to someone else's post.

Thanks

Dan

Hey Dan, I don't think you should automatically cover everything no matter what. Although, if you wanted to created a program for "self-inflicted" damage, that would be great for the customer, but bad for business. We can break more motors than you can build - LOL - but it might be something to think about. Maybe $900 extra will insure/cover one rebuild over x-amount of years/miles/passes... might be worth it for a realist.

My big thing is I have detonated 15 "boosted" engines in my race career. Every single one of them was a snapped connecting rod or a hole melted in the top of the piston, close to just below where the spark plug is. I have never seen any pistons come apart on the side, whether it be a skirt, ring landing, wrist pin, etc. unless there was a machining problem with the cylinder or the cylinder was to large/small for the piston/ring combo (clearance issue) or an air bubble in the metal form during the forging process.

Now, with that being said, I am not an engineer, I don't have spectrometers or scopes to examine the piston on an atomic level to view the stress points and review the material looking for common traits for manufacturing defects vs. abuse. Hopefully you guys do... but regardless, I saw the engine, I saw the tune and the logs, and regardless of what the fuel recommendation is, I have formed an opinion on experience that there is something MORE than a boost/fuel/tuning issue there.

I have to tell you, I am a co-owner of a new race team. We are doing builds on at least 2 of our cars for next season. You are going to be hard-pressed to convince me that I should buy a couple of built blocks from your company, because it seems (again, in my opinion) that this should be a warranty issue.

I like the heads I have from you now, but you guys have already pulled a shitty ass stunt, selling me heads other than what you advertised. When I complained about it and asked to get the parts I ordered, you change the web site, told me that specs I read never existed, and I got what I paid for. The parts I got are not bad, but they are by no means what I ordered, I got mistreated, and got no resolve.

So, I leave it up to you. Handle Josh how you need to, just understand that there are people like me who are watching this and scrutinizing what happens here (even if amongst ourselves) and making choices on which direction to go based on what we see here. I have to tell you, as far as I am concerned, your companies reputation is slipping.

I do appreciate you reaching out to me... We will see how it goes.

 

[bigwilly43729]

I'm sorry for the OP, but this thread is a major buzzkill for wanting any extra power. I feel like the second I buy something, it will blow up.

Hope you get this all worked out man.

 

[andyman]

one cent to throw in (two cents... in this economy?)... I agree with Mark, don't run pump gas on that kind of a build. At least use some kind of octane booster or SOMETHING. Prevention is the best medicine... hindsight may be 20/20 but it can't cahnge the past, foresight may be blurry but it can change the future. So yeah a little octane insurance goes a long way.

 

[V8SRGR8]

Remember guys there has been no direction on what we are gonna do with the customer. I am not denying a approving a warranty, at this point I am just replying to someone else's post.

Dan, again, I do appreciate the discussion we are having here. Let's get one thing staright though, I was told directly, over the phone by Dave A. that there is no warranty coverage on this engine. This is when I was given an estimate for $2500 for repairs, and reopened this thread. So when is the "final" determination going to be made? I do believe the engine was most probably assemebled correctly and within specs as you said. It is just an unusual failure, and I know for a fact my motor is not the first to fail in this manner. I wonder how many more there are? To me, this suggests a problem with the pistons, but only you guys and Mahle would know that one. It is unfortunate as well that you don't allow someone like myself to take it to an unbiased, third party for inspection. It's not a good situation when the one who is charged with finding the fault is one who stands to lose money or credibility. That is a conflict of interest, plain and simple.

 

[Go-fast]

Dan,

I have a question ... How can you have one bank be damaged and not the other ? ?

If you wipe out a couple of pistons and damage starts to occur on the cylinder walls wouldn't you see the same results in the other bank . If total timing is 16* an the A/F is around the 11.5 range , what would keep the other bank intact ? Is it possible that the fuel flashed over quicker in bank one causing spark knock ?

Is it possible that IAT and coolant temps had something to do with this as far as circulation , I wouldn't think that one bank couldn't get that much hotter to cause spark knock than the other ?

I would think there would be some kind of damage to cylinders one -four even if its minimal ..but to come out clean just makes me think that there was something else going on

Thanks

I would like to know the same how come 1 bank is destroyed but the other side is fine. And how come there is no damage to the top of the piston? Most detonation screws up the top of the piston. In this case the top of the piston looks perfect but sides are destroyed???

 

[EagleStroker]

The only thing that causes a ring land to fail like that is detonation and defect, I'm willing to bet this was detonation. It was more than likely coincidence that it just happened on one bank, either that or the fuel tables were off and it went lean.

Just my $.02

 

[lostsoul]

you need to be flogged for that. haha


Mark= don't worry just playing with you. We both have been though hell. You just have a fatter wallet...

 

[05stroker]

The only thing that causes a ring land to fail like that is detonation and defect, I'm willing to bet this was detonation. It was more than likely coincidence that it just happened on one bank, either that or the fuel tables were off and it went lean.

Just my $.02

Everytime i have gone lean or detonated the damage was on the pass side only . Wich side was this piston on ?

 

[EagleStroker]

Everytime i have gone lean or detonated the damage was on the pass side only . Wich side was this piston on ?

Passenger if I'm not mistaken. Could be something with the way our fuel tables work.

 

[05stroker]

Passenger if I'm not mistaken. Could be something with the way our fuel tables work.

My issues have always showed up at #2 and #3 first .

 

[V8SRGR8]

No, passenger side was the good side. The driver's side cylinders were all down on compression. All the photos I posted were of the driver's side cylinders.

 

[05stroker]

No, passenger side was the good side. The driver's side cylinders were all down on compression. All the photos I posted were of the driver's side cylinders.

Interesting ! Good luck Bro .

 

[EagleStroker]

No, passenger side was the good side. The driver's side cylinders were all down on compression. All the photos I posted were of the driver's side cylinders.

My bad man, I haven't flipped through the thread in a while. Good luck getting it straightened out