Fuck this car.

[Ken3030]

And now the pile on starts. Yay for the internet.

You guys are right.

This was his first time ever tuning a car with high boost on pump gas.

I'm so glad I have you guys here to help them make a decision whether or not to honor the warranty on this $5000, "1000hp" motor.

I don't think anyone is trying to pile on or make the decision regarding your warranty engine failure. I think everyone here wants this to work out. Having said that I think a lot of people are reading this thread and it makes sense to point out what could have caused the problem like pump gas.

I am no expert either, but agree with others here that pump gas should not have been used in this case period. Now having said that I have no idea what happened to your engine and if it is determined it was not a pump gas issue and was a parts and/or assembly issue you should get satisfaction. Best of luck!!

 

[psfracer]

Well, this motor is about 1 point higher in compression then most who run a s/c on pump gas---combined with 18 psi, it would be easy to assume detonation.

But look at the piston. Detonation I would think would show up on top of the piston. Do you have a picture showing the top of the piston, looking down? Is the top of the piston mis-shapen in any way?--which would expose more of the side of the piston and ringlands? It does look like the top ringland took the damage.

 

[akula52]

Livernios Stroker

Never mind!

 

[stkjock]

But look at the piston. Detonation I would think would show up on top of the piston. Do you have a picture showing the top of the piston, looking down? Is the top of the piston mis-shapen in any way?--which would expose more of the side of the piston and ringlands? It does look like the top ringland took the damage.

see this post Paul:

http://s197forum.com/forum/showpost.php?p=325317&postcount=93

 

[mike@livernois]

Dan,

I have a question ... How can you have one bank be damaged and not the other ? ?

If you wipe out a couple of pistons and damage starts to occur on the cylinder walls wouldn't you see the same results in the other bank . If total timing is 16* an the A/F is around the 11.5 range , what would keep the other bank intact ? Is it possible that the fuel flashed over quicker in bank one causing spark knock ?

Is it possible that IAT and coolant temps had something to do with this as far as circulation , I wouldn't think that one bank couldn't get that much hotter to cause spark knock than the other ?

I would think there would be some kind of damage to cylinders one -four even if its minimal ..but to come out clean just makes me think that there was something else going on

Thanks

I know Dan is busy so I thought I would try and help him out with this one.

To answer the first question both banks are damaged. They are just damaged to varying degrees. The rings show damage on all 8 cylinders. Some are worse than others though.

The bank to bank as well as cylinder to cylinder damage will vary. This somewhat has to do with the fact that no two cylinders are identical. This can be seen when using a wideband setup on each hole where air/fuel differences show up in each cylinder. This can also be seen in EGT temps that will vary from cylinder to cylinder. A factor that is often seen on Modular engines is the coolant flow around the cylinders is different. This is somewhat part of what usually makes cylinders 7 and 8 hotspots and the first to go when things go bad.

So cylinders 1-4 do show some signs of damage. Its just not as severe as some of the others. The info that we sent over to the owner has some of those details in there. Again we are still working with him on this and it is up to him as to whether he would like to post those pictures and info that relate to the engine.

Bottom line is we do want to come to some resolution with the customer that works best for him given the situation and what we have to work with in front of us. I know that there have not been any final decisions made yet on anything but hopefully we will have a resolution soon.

Thanks
Mike

 

[Gray Ghost GT]

I'm new here - recently purchased a '09 Mustang GT for a daily driver and plan to do some HPDE events at VIR beginning next month. I've been road racing a C5 Corvette (dedicated track car) with a naturally aspirated forged 383 stroker engine for the past five years at a number of road courses on the east coast.

I installed approx. $9K (parts and labor) to improve my GTs suspension, cooling and braking performance. I have a "Wish List" for my Mustang GT, which includes a Livernois Motorsports 4.6L Modular 298ci Stroker Shortblock. I'm watching this thread to see how this company stands behind their product warranty when things take a turn for the worse for a customer.

This forum looks like an excellent resource - I recognize a few members from my club. I hope to be a positive contributor in the near future as I learn more about my Mustang GT. Thanks! Mike

 

[RRRoamer]

Compression is compression. It doesn't matter how you get the 12.5:1, it's still 12.5:1.

Actually, it is "Cylinder pressure is cylinder pressure. It doesn't matter how you get it"

PV=nRT. Ideal gas law. Let's assume n (amount of gas) = constant, R (gas constant) = constant (surprise!) and simplifying, T is also a constant (in reality, T WILL increase due to compression, but for the sake of this argument, we are holding it constant).

That leaves PV=T where P = pressure and V = volume. We can rewrite this as P = T/V

Let's look at your 12.5:1 compression NA motor. At the bottom of the intake stroke, if we where able to 100% fill the cylinder, then P = 14.7psi (sea level) and V = the volume of a single cylinder. Or:

14.7psi = T/V

Now, let's compress that 12.5:1

14.7psi = T/V/12.5 or
14.7psi * 12.5 = T/V
or P = 183.75 psi

Again, that is make a lot of simplifying assumptions, but for this comparison, it is still valid and instructive.

Now, let's redo the math based on an engine running 14.7psi of boost and a 9.7:1 compression ratio and see what happens to our cylinder pressure:

Initial P = 14.7psi (sea level atmospheric pressure) + 14.7 psi (boost) = 29.4psi
T = same
V = same
29.4psi = T/V.

Now compress it 9.7:1

29.4psi = T/V/9.7
29.4psi * 9.7 = T/V
or P = 285.18 psi!

Even though you are "only" running a 9.7:1 compression ratio, your cylinder pressure (while running 14.7psi of boost) is HIGHER than a NA engine running a 12.5:1 or even 14:1 compression ratio.

Again, this is a VERY simplified look at cylinder pressure (temperature is NOT a constant and plays a big part in detonation), but it is the basic reason that he was so incredulous that you where running 9.7:1 compression ratio and high boost on pump gas.

 

[Steedman07]

I'm new here - recently purchased a '09 Mustang GT for a daily driver and plan to do some HPDE events at VIR beginning next month. I've been road racing a C5 Corvette (dedicated track car) with a naturally aspirated forged 383 stroker engine for the past five years at a number of road courses on the east coast.

I installed approx. $9K (parts and labor) to improve my GTs suspension, cooling and braking performance. I have a "Wish List" for my Mustang GT, which includes a Livernois Motorsports 4.6L Modular 298ci Stroker Shortblock. I'm watching this thread to see how this company stands behind their product warranty when things take a turn for the worse for a customer.

This forum looks like an excellent resource - I recognize a few members from my club. I hope to be a positive contributor in the near future as I learn more about my Mustang GT. Thanks! Mike

Welcome aboard!!

 

[marcspaz]

I'm new here - recently purchased a '09 Mustang GT for a daily driver and plan to do some HPDE events at VIR beginning next month. I've been road racing a C5 Corvette (dedicated track car) with a naturally aspirated forged 383 stroker engine for the past five years at a number of road courses on the east coast.

I installed approx. $9K (parts and labor) to improve my GTs suspension, cooling and braking performance. I have a "Wish List" for my Mustang GT, which includes a Livernois Motorsports 4.6L Modular 298ci Stroker Shortblock. I'm watching this thread to see how this company stands behind their product warranty when things take a turn for the worse for a customer.

This forum looks like an excellent resource - I recognize a few members from my club. I hope to be a positive contributor in the near future as I learn more about my Mustang GT. Thanks! Mike

Glad you made it over! There is a lot of great knowledge here (as you see). You will get some good info to say the least.

Actually, it is "Cylinder pressure is cylinder pressure. It doesn't matter how you get it"

PV=nRT. Ideal gas law. Let's assume n (amount of gas) = constant, R (gas constant) = constant (surprise!) and simplifying, T is also a constant (in reality, T WILL increase due to compression, but for the sake of this argument, we are holding it constant).

That leaves PV=T where P = pressure and V = volume. We can rewrite this as P = T/V

Let's look at your 12.5:1 compression NA motor. At the bottom of the intake stroke, if we where able to 100% fill the cylinder, then P = 14.7psi (sea level) and V = the volume of a single cylinder. Or:

14.7psi = T/V

Now, let's compress that 12.5:1

14.7psi = T/V/12.5 or
14.7psi * 12.5 = T/V
or P = 183.75 psi

Again, that is make a lot of simplifying assumptions, but for this comparison, it is still valid and instructive.

Now, let's redo the math based on an engine running 14.7psi of boost and a 9.7:1 compression ratio and see what happens to our cylinder pressure:

Initial P = 14.7psi (sea level atmospheric pressure) + 14.7 psi (boost) = 29.4psi
T = same
V = same
29.4psi = T/V.

Now compress it 9.7:1

29.4psi = T/V/9.7
29.4psi * 9.7 = T/V
or P = 285.18 psi!

Even though you are "only" running a 9.7:1 compression ratio, your cylinder pressure (while running 14.7psi of boost) is HIGHER than a NA engine running a 12.5:1 or even 14:1 compression ratio.

Again, this is a VERY simplified look at cylinder pressure (temperature is NOT a constant and plays a big part in detonation), but it is the basic reason that he was so incredulous that you where running 9.7:1 compression ratio and high boost on pump gas.

That is all good information, but the comment I was replying to was "at those compression ratios", not boost (pressure) levels.

Compression never changes. It doesn't matter if you are compressing 1 ci of air 12.5:1 or 200 ci of air 12.5:1, you will be consistantly compressing it 12.5:1.

 

[psfracer]

How did the plugs look in each cylinder? Did I miss that? When I used to run nitrous, detonation would always take out the plugs first.

 

[Dan Millen]

I'm new here - recently purchased a '09 Mustang GT for a daily driver and plan to do some HPDE events at VIR beginning next month. I've been road racing a C5 Corvette (dedicated track car) with a naturally aspirated forged 383 stroker engine for the past five years at a number of road courses on the east coast.

I installed approx. $9K (parts and labor) to improve my GTs suspension, cooling and braking performance. I have a "Wish List" for my Mustang GT, which includes a Livernois Motorsports 4.6L Modular 298ci Stroker Shortblock. I'm watching this thread to see how this company stands behind their product warranty when things take a turn for the worse for a customer.

This forum looks like an excellent resource - I recognize a few members from my club. I hope to be a positive contributor in the near future as I learn more about my Mustang GT. Thanks! Mike

We stand behind our warranty 100% which clearly outlines that tuning issues are NOT covered. If we determine that the cause of this failure is tuning, I would hope people would understand that this is not a Livernois Problem.

Again there has been no final decision with us or Mahle.

Thanks

Dan

 

[ChevyKiller]

Glad you made it over! There is a lot of great knowledge here (as you see). You will get some good info to say the least.



That is all good information, but the comment I was replying to was "at those compression ratios", not boost (pressure) levels.

Compression never changes. It doesn't matter if you are compressing 1 ci of air 12.5:1 or 200 ci of air 12.5:1, you will be consistantly compressing it 12.5:1.

But your comment had nothing to do with this thread. I never said pump gas was bad for 9.7:1 compression - I said pump gas was bad for a 9.7:1 compression motor with 18 pounds of boost through it. The idea if it being literally 'crazy' IMO to run pump gas wasn't just because of the compression - it was the compression with 18 psi on top. I still stand behind it is STUPID to tune any modular motor with over a 9:1 compression with 18+ pounds of boost on pump gas.

How did the plugs look in each cylinder? Did I miss that? When I used to run nitrous, detonation would always take out the plugs first.

True Paul, but another 'sweet spot' to check is the heads. Like to see a picture of those as well. Valves can be very telling as well when looking for detonation.

One thing I have found is that on ALL of our cars the #8 is quite a bit hotter and more and more I am liking the idea that JPC did of tapping into the freeze plugs and routing that hot water from the rear back up to the crossover. No way on earth I am not going to do that on my next motor. Must have on big boost applications IMO.

As pointed out, cylinder temps are not equal at all so just because your a/f says so and so doesn't mean one or more of the cylinders aren't getting beat to shit. Goes right back to CONSISTENCY - not just a word for performance down the track and off the line, but an important word for temps and distribution factors as well.

I'm new here - recently purchased a '09 Mustang GT for a daily driver and plan to do some HPDE events at VIR beginning next month. I've been road racing a C5 Corvette (dedicated track car) with a naturally aspirated forged 383 stroker engine for the past five years at a number of road courses on the east coast.

I installed approx. $9K (parts and labor) to improve my GTs suspension, cooling and braking performance. I have a "Wish List" for my Mustang GT, which includes a Livernois Motorsports 4.6L Modular 298ci Stroker Shortblock. I'm watching this thread to see how this company stands behind their product warranty when things take a turn for the worse for a customer.

This forum looks like an excellent resource - I recognize a few members from my club. I hope to be a positive contributor in the near future as I learn more about my Mustang GT. Thanks! Mike

Welcome to the forum...

I hope everything works out as well but I'll tell you right now that despite what some people may say in this thread or how they word it I can just about garuntee you that behind closed doors, anyone who is experienced with making big power on the modular motors will say it was stupid and crazy to try to push 18 psi through a 9.7:1 motor on pump gas.

I'm not a shop so I don't have to be nice or 'PC' - I'm just calling a spade a spade.

I'll do you one better - I challenge anyone on the forum to call JDM Engineering, JPC Racing, RGR, ST Motorsports, Livernois, Boss 330 racing, Lethal, PMP Performance, Powerhouse, Brooks speed, or any other of the known reputable A-Class 3V tuning guys out there and ask them this question...

"I have a Livernois built 9.7:1 stroker motor with 18-20 psi on top - can you give me a good pump gas tune on it...?"

Watch how quick they say... "NO - I DON'T RECOMMEND TUNING IT ON PUMP GAS - I CAN GIVE YOU A PUMP GAS TUNE AT LOWER BOOST AND THEN A RACE GAS TUNE AT THAT LEVEL"

You can take that to the bank.

If I bought a $15,000 Al Papito motor that was sold as 'good to 1600 rwhp' and then I put an F1 on it and ran 30 psi with a 100 shot of nitrous on top on 93 octane and detonated it to high hell at only 1000 rwhp - would Papito be responsible for fixing it? Of course not - he would simply call me an idiot and ask me why in the hell I wasn't running C16 or C23 through it.

 

[V8SRGR8]

Plugs were fine as stated before.
Heads were fine as well.

 

[V8SRGR8]

Your opinion has been noted.
Thank you.

 

[ChevyKiller]

Your opinion has been noted.
Thank you.

Please don't take it personal - it is honestly not my intention to bad mouth you or your build and especially not my intention to give any firepower towards you not getting the engine builder to warranty the motor.

I have already stated, and will repeat - I have no idea if pump gas or detonation had anything to do with your issue at all and it very well could be a build issue that absolutely SHOULD be covered under warranty.

My intention is though - to educate guys considering and in the process of doing motor builds with plans to make bigger power levels some of the 'do's and dont's' That is all and I wish you the best of luck either way...

Just FYI though - I have lost 3 motors, and all 3 I feel were 100% due to 'negligence' and 100% the fault of either a defective part I bought or the guy who built it and not once did I ever get any any 'compensation' or warranty.

I just recently had a set of brand new comp cams come bent in my brand new livernois heads that caused the oil pump to be taken out on startup. Comp just yesterday 'approved' the claim (after 2 months I might add) and warrantied their cams were bent out of the box and caused the damage but what did I get for that revelation? I got a new set of cams...period. Did they cover one cent of the damage their cams caused to my motor - not at all - they simply replaced thier faulty product.

Be prepared if the pistons were defective and the manufacturer admits to them being defective (hard thing right there by itself) - then pretty much you can count on them coming up with a replacement set of pistons for your 'trouble' and that's about it - I would be shocked to high hell if they did more than that.

As far as damage getting picked it - you are going to have to put your faith in your builder or tuner IMO.

Good luck either way - just trying to help...

 

[marcspaz]

Hey Mark, I am not disagreeing with you. Shit, if you remember a few years ago I made a super hot tune while NA and ran VP 103 Unleaded Race Fuel to be sure I didn't have any fuck-ups at 13.5:1 AFR and measured adv 57* global timing at 7000 RPM. I love race fuel as far as what you can get out of it.

I just think that this particular build had issues with the hardware, regardless of the fuel or tune. Between experiance and seeing another Livernios block that came apart the same way, where the pistons look the exact same damage wise, but the guy was running race fuel and 13 PSI.

Soooo.... I see a trend. I guess that is my real arguement, not fuel and tuning...

 

[ChevyKiller]

Hey Mark, I am not disagreeing with you. Shit, if you remember a few years ago I made a super hot tune while NA and ran VP 103 Unleaded Race Fuel to be sure I didn't have any fuck-ups at 13.5:1 AFR and measured adv 57* global timing at 7000 RPM. I love race fuel as far as what you can get out of it.

I just think that this particular build had issues with the hardware, regardless of the fuel or tune. Between experiance and seeing another Livernios block that came apart the same way, where the pistons look the exact same damage wise, but the guy was running race fuel and 13 PSI.

Soooo.... I see a trend. I guess that is my real arguement, not fuel and tuning...

I get it - but I was never making an argument that pump gas killed his motor. Could very well be the build. I am just making the point of pump gas was not right for that set-up regardless of what happened...

 

[marcspaz]

I get it - but I was never making an argument that pump gas killed his motor. Could very well be the build. I am just making the point of pump gas was not right for that set-up regardless of what happened...

Cool... I misunderstood. Sorry...

 

[akula52]

my failure

Here's a pic of my stroker failure. I am not blaming anyone for the failure, and it could of been caused by any number of things, including mods that I did and didn't know any better, but I was not excited to pop my motor. That's about all I will say about that, it is just a data point for trending only. Enjoy!

P.S. Hell, it could of been bad gas or maybe the rear cylinders are just not getting enough cooling, and it is a block design issue. I am not blaming Livernois, I think they are a great company, with a good product!

 

[Freaknazty]

Here's a pic of my stroker failure. I am not blaming anyone for the failure, and it could of been caused by any number of things, including mods that I did and didn't know any better, but I was not excited to pop my motor. That's about all I will say about that, it is just a data point for trending only. Enjoy!

holy fuckin dickface batman wtf ? wow shit i'm speechless