Getting more out of the roush m90

[GTCS08]

So like most anyone who decides to mod their s197 for more power, i want more. I've been looking into how much i can get out of my m90 which isn't much. bone stock it made 360rwhp with the factory FoMoCo mufflers at the m90s stock 5 psi, running 33 degrees of timing. I've heard that if i ran a smaller pulley, it will overdrive the charger and create far more heat. and since its a daily driver that sees 105f days in stop and go traffic, I frown upon heat. so my goal is a modest 450rwhp on the stock lower end. i guess my question would be is how i can get there while keeping it at 5psi. has anyone tried running a higher compression ratio at 10.5 or so with low boost/ I'm hoping that, some LTs, nsr blower cam, and a roush cai will get me there. without having to tare into porting the heads

 

[BruceH]

This is with a custom tune? I'd start with the tune. I'd also keep the spark advance down to 21 or so degrees. 33 is probably too much for efficient combustion and could be limiting power output. If it is a custom tune was wot spark approached slowly from a lower number? If so what was the hp difference between 19 degrees and 33? Did the hp keep climbing with more spark advance? If you wonder why I'm harping on spark advance it's from my own experiences. Even with E85 I found no increase in power after around 23 degrees of spark advance at wot on my supercharged setups. In fact even my 12:1 na motor doesn't see an increase in power with E85 past 33 degrees. As the spark moves farther away from the ideal ignition point power decreases even if there isn't detonation.

Keep in mind that you will be limited in total power output no matter what you do. 450 might be obtained easier and cheaper with a different blower.

 

[eighty6gt]

I had no real IAT issues with my M90 and a 2.49 pulley/steeda CAI. The steeda has a larger diameter and works a bit better than the Roush unit.

 

[joedls]

I doubt you'll get 450 to the wheels on 5 psi of boost unless you spray with nitrous.

 

[GTCS08]

The tune on it was the roush factory tune that came with the car. I just ran it on a dyno not tuned it...although now I feel like I should have. Should I just buy the vmp500 upper and call it a day?

 

[BruceH]

The tune on it was the roush factory tune that came with the car. I just ran it on a dyno not tuned it...although now I feel like I should have. Should I just buy the vmp500 upper and call it a day?

I'm guessing that you will see at least 40rwhp with a good tune. More than likely the Roush tune is using torque control.

I once had a non intercooled FRPP whipple that made 367rwhp with the torque limited tune that came with it. Same supercharger made 409rwhp with a very safe custom tune. It came down to the torque control that FRPP/Ford included to make sure the motor wouldn't see too much stress. Back then the non-intercooled Whipple was the one that would still keep the factory warranty intact.

Same supercharger with intercooling and more boost made a whole lot more power.

I'd start with a tune from Manuel Pazo, he goes by lito on this board. For a few hundred dollars you will gain a bunch of power. It will be the best hp/dollar ratio for your setup.

Keep in mind that the m90 will have a low limit. You might think about selling it and getting something that will give you more power and room to grow. A DOB setup can be done for around $3k to 3.5k depending on what you go with. Net cost would be $1k to $2k depending on what you got for the Roush.

 

[redfirepearlgt]

So like most anyone who decides to mod their s197 for more power, i want more. I've been looking into how much i can get out of my m90 which isn't much. bone stock it made 360rwhp with the factory FoMoCo mufflers at the m90s stock 5 psi, running 33 degrees of timing. I've heard that if i ran a smaller pulley, it will overdrive the charger and create far more heat. and since its a daily driver that sees 105f days in stop and go traffic, I frown upon heat. so my goal is a modest 450rwhp on the stock lower end. i guess my question would be is how i can get there while keeping it at 5psi. has anyone tried running a higher compression ratio at 10.5 or so with low boost/ I'm hoping that, some LTs, nsr blower cam, and a roush cai will get me there. without having to tare into porting the heads

Good questions. A friend of mine had an 06 Roush M90 setup. HE ditched the Roush tune. He pullied down I think to somewhere around 9psi , went longtubes O/R X and made around 430RWHP. Don't know who his tune was through.

VMP is my suggestion. Either way lose the Roush tune. My experience with Roush tuning is negative. Too much protection crap. Way too conservative. While their tunes make dyno HP they fall way short when the rubber meets the road from personal experience. The 575 Roush stock package I started with on my 13 would not do better than 12.35 on DR's. Went to VMP, pullied down from an 85 to 82mm pulley and loaded their tune. kept the closed air box. Nothing else. Car went 11.49 on same DR's granny shifting. Car was a whole new animal.

Here is a link to their solution for your M90.
http://www.vmpperformance.com/VMP-500HP-package-for-05-09-Roushcharged-Mustangs-p/rsc500.htm

 

[irishpwr46]

youre going to be hard pressed to get 450 at the wheels with an m90. youll need an overdrive crank pulley, the smallest available upper pulley, and full bolt ons

 

[skwerl]

I made 435 with my M90 on a cool day with good air (happy dyno). 2.49" upper, cat deletes, modified Roush airbox (cut out the interior fins) and a VMP tune. Motor was stock from crank to valve covers.

 

[808muscle]

JDM told me my tune with them is about 430 to the wheels. m90, steeda cai, LTs, cams. Stock pulleys. Im thinking about swapping in the VMP 1.9 unit.

 

[Pentalab]

105 degs F in stop + go traffic......and M90 don't really belong in the same sentence.
His IAT's will be so high, it will just pull a ton of timing..and then it's back to square one....with reduced power. He will be right back to where he started.

You have to get practical here. What would work is to toss the oem Roush tiny HE, and replace with a bigger one, like a dual /triple pass..with a pair of fans for the hot wx, and stop and go traffic. That, and ceramic LT's, and either no cats or high flow cats. Get rid of that oem H section, with its restriction inside. Then get VMP to retune it for either 91 /93 octane. Then call it a day. I'd leave the pulley alone.
A 9 bar upper grille would put a lot more air through there.

Then you end up with a bunch more hp / tq...with the same 5 psi boost..and lower iats. Just a tune on your current setup won't buy you as much as you think...and no where near 40 hp, maybe 15-20.

 

[Department Of Boost]

JDM told me my tune with them is about 430 to the wheels. m90, steeda cai, LTs, cams. Stock pulleys. Im thinking about swapping in the VMP 1.9 unit.

That 1.9L TVS head unit is a pretty nice unit. But you would still be blowing through a sub-par IC. If I'm reading it right you're looking at $2500 for the head unit. $150 for a TB and $200 for a CAI to do that conversion. Total $2850.

If you sold your M90 for what? $2500??? And bought a GT450 Phase III you would have $1900 into the change over. That would leave you almost $1000 to put towards a huge HE and good water pump. You would be a LOT further ahead going with the GT450. Big IC, big HE and a good pump = awesome.

If you got a GT450 Phase I and built it up yourself you could save another chunk of money.

 

[Pentalab]

Interesting to note that the IC in the M90 is the same one that's used on the M112, used on the terminator. Flip side is... if he has 430 rwhp.... how much more can he expect... till he fries the oem eng / rods? He already has a big HE.

 

[06monera96]

105 degs F in stop + go traffic......and M90 don't really belong in the same sentence.
His IAT's will be so high, it will just pull a ton of timing..and then it's back to square one....with reduced power. He will be right back to where he started.

You have to get practical here. What would work is to toss the oem Roush tiny HE, and replace with a bigger one, like a dual /triple pass..with a pair of fans for the hot wx, and stop and go traffic. That, and ceramic LT's, and either no cats or high flow cats. Get rid of that oem H section, with its restriction inside. Then get VMP to retune it for either 91 /93 octane. Then call it a day. I'd leave the pulley alone.
A 9 bar upper grille would put a lot more air through there.

Then you end up with a bunch more hp / tq...with the same 5 psi boost..and lower iats. Just a tune on your current setup won't buy you as much as you think...and no where near 40 hp, maybe 15-20.

Hmmm I was cruising at 95F
Idle just around 115-125 in traffic.
Canada 25C+ weather

 

[Pentalab]

Hmmm I was cruising at 95F
Idle just around 115-125 in traffic.
Canada 25C+ weather

25C = 77F

 

[redfirepearlgt]

^^^ Assume based on IAT its an open air element CAI and not a closed air box. 125 degrees is only 20-25 degrees below the point where MOST legit tuners will start pulling timing out of the tune. 1.9 liters of displacement when cranked up to generate the same volume of air output as a 2.3TVS ata lesser boost level will produce way more heat period. It's a simple fact of physics. I don't know Pascal's law well enough to present it mathematically but you will require much more boost out of a 1.9L M90 to move the same amount of air volume generated by a 2.3L TVS at say 9psi. The end result? More boost = more compression of the medium = more heat generated into the medium by the boost process. This means larger HE to compensate to rid the additional heat else heat soak will ensue very quickly under load.

Datalog under full load. Then look at your Spark advance, Spark advance2, IAT2 (not IAT), RPM, and knock sensor values. If the data is 0 to negative or positive in the knock sensor that is good. Positive data means the tune is pulling timing and the likely culprit under load aside from crappy gas will be IAT2 temps that exceed the tuner's set point. This will be reflected in Sparkadvance2. Timing being pulled may well indicate the IAT2 temps have exceeded set point and the tune is now pulling timing because of that.

If you feel I am talking down to you I apologize. But from your comments you seem to reason that based simply on normal cruising IAT2 temps being 120-125 you will have no heat soak issues when cranking the boost up to make the hopeful but doubtful 450 RWHP. Just because it makes it on the dyno doesn't mean it will put it down at the track where the real life result is seen.

A car making HP efficiently will produce optimally through the entire 1/4 mile length. The car making higher HP inefficiently may leave hard but then peter out mid track due to heat soak. The result? A lower HP car running efficiently with the same setup may well leave you sitting even though you made more HP on the dyno. WHY? Because while you may have 450 RWHP on him potentially when you leave the line, you will only be making 350RWHP or less at peak due to heat soak at mid track while he is still making max. Thus a car making 400RWHP throughout the entire length will likely over come you given identical setups and reaction times.

Go to DOB's website and bone up on some knowledge on this principle. They are in the business to sell product but they are also trying to help guys like you and me better understand the concepts of air movement and doing it efficiently. I am fortunate to have some experience with air movement from working on CO2 lasers for 6 years and in industrial HVAC for a short time. Through that I understand the basic layman concepts of air movement via displacement being the process is used heavily in both professions. Not an expert but it helped me understand what DOB and others are trying to tell you.

In the end you can have an efficient car with the M90 on it or you can have a piece of paper you can frame and show off at Cruise ins and Car shows. It's your choice. People are just trying to help. They aren't trying to hold you back.

Good luck.

 

[jhunt47]

I just did the m90 kit and the jdm 2.49 stage 4 upgrade myself and here is what I found. While just driving the car normal iat stayed around 10 degrees above ambient. On the day of the dyno pull the temps that day was 96 degrees with 42% humidity iat was 128. We let the car cool down to 120 for iat and did another pull got to 132. So for normal driving iat will be fine. If your hot lapping then any supercharger is going to create heat and heat soak. The m90 just does it a bit quicker. Now my car didn't come with the m90 roush kit I bought it new and got a good deal on it. I never ran the car with the stock pulley or tune. I upgraded to the stage 4 kit from jdm. It consisted of the 2.49 pulley 90 mm idler steeda cold air intake and tune. This got me 390 to the ground on a very hot and humid day. This is the only mod on my car. I contacted jim sr(very nice people and fast response) and gave him my dyno graph with afr and he made me another tune based off the data. He told me based on the numbers I made and afr being a bit fat his new tune should net me about 405-410 at the wheels. Now I know that seems low but those are uncorrected number on a very hot and humid day. On a cooler day he told me the car should put around 425-430. Now since yours already has the kit for roughly 1100 bucks or so you can get a minimal of 40-50 hp to the ground based off your dyno numbers compared to mine. I know different dyno read different but it's a fair comparison. Looking at all the info on the net taking away some generous number here and there the 2.49 upgrade is worth 40-50hp over stock. I'm happy with the car for now but will eventually upgrade to the Vmp 1.9 kit. Dob option is a great one too they look like good kits and make great power. I don't k ow how hard it would be to sell these m90 kits. It would be a bit of work to. The Vmp kit swaps out in about 2-3 hrs from what I've read. The 450hp to the ground seems to be the most anyone recommends on a stock motor. You can easily get there with the Vmp or the dob kits. The m90 kit will take some other mods in my opinion to get to that number.

 

[jhunt47]

Also Vmp is a good kit as well the same as jdm. I bought through jdm cause I got a better deal not needing a tuner. The only difference between the 2 kits from either company is the tune.

 

[Pentalab]

^^^ Assume based on IAT its an open air element CAI and not a closed air box. 125 degrees is only 20-25 degrees below the point where MOST legit tuners will start pulling timing out of the tune. 1.9 liters of displacement when cranked up to generate the same volume of air output as a 2.3TVS at a lesser boost level will produce way more heat period. It's a simple fact of physics. I don't know Pascal's law well enough to present it mathematically but you will require much more boost out of a 1.9L M90 to move the same amount of air volume generated by a 2.3L TVS at say 9psi. The end result? More boost = more compression of the medium = more heat generated into the medium by the boost process. This means larger HE to compensate to rid the additional heat else heat soak will ensue very quickly under load.



Good luck.

Roush M90 tune (5 psi boost) starts to pull timing when the IAT hits 150F. If a smaller 2.49 pulley used, and 8 psi, most after market tuners will start to pull timing at aprx 135F.

You don't require more boost from a smaller displacement blower to achieve the same airflow. Boost is boost. If a M90 /TVS-1900 / TVS-2300 are all tweaked so they all put out 8 psi, they all produce the same cfm. The only difference is the larger displacement blowers will spin slower. The M90 is already spinning @ 14k rpm...just to get 5.5 psi. It's beyond maxed out at 8-9 psi.

The TVS-2300 is just a TVS-1900 that has been lengthened. (but with the same 160 deg twist over their entire length). If you look at the eff curves for both the 1900 + 2300 blower, the 1900 is actually more eff at the lower boost levels. The 1900 is a good eff blower...up to about 10 psi. Above that, the 2300 takes over. Look at the eff maps for both, and you will see that the 1900 has larger dark blue 'islands'. The 1900 is very eff from 5-10 psi.

The problem with the VMP 1900 is it uses the same, small IC that the M90 uses (it's also the same IC as used on the M112 cobra). That plus the 05-09 M90 kits came with a real small HE, no fans, and the 4 gpm Bosch pump.
The VMP 1900 is still a good upgrade for an existing M90. It's a simple swap. On a 2010 M90, it's even faster, just 6 bolts..done.. 1/2 hr job.

 

[Pentalab]

^^^ Assume based on IAT its an open air element CAI and not a closed air box. 125 degrees is only 20-25 degrees below the point where MOST legit tuners will start pulling timing out of the tune. 1.9 liters of displacement when cranked up to generate the same volume of air output as a 2.3TVS at a lesser boost level will produce way more heat period. It's a simple fact of physics. I don't know Pascal's law well enough to present it mathematically but you will require much more boost out of a 1.9L M90 to move the same amount of air volume generated by a 2.3L TVS at say 9psi. The end result? More boost = more compression of the medium = more heat generated into the medium by the boost process. This means larger HE to compensate to rid the additional heat else heat soak will ensue very quickly under load.



Good luck.

Roush M90 tune (5 psi boost) starts to pull timing when the IAT hits 150F. If a smaller 2.49 pulley used, and 8 psi, most after market tuners will start to pull timing at aprx 135F.

You don't require more boost from a smaller displacement blower to achieve the same airflow. Boost is boost. If a M90 /TVS-1900 / TVS-2300 are all tweaked so they all put out 8 psi, they all produce the same cfm. The only difference is the larger displacement blowers will spin slower. The M90 is already spinning @ 14k rpm...just to get 5.5 psi. It's beyond maxed out at 8-9 psi.

The TVS-2300 is just a TVS-1900 that has been lengthened. (but with the same 160 deg twist over their entire length). If you look at the eff curves for both the 1900 + 2300 blower, the 1900 is actually more eff at the lower boost levels. The 1900 is a good eff blower...up to about 10 psi. Above that, the 2300 takes over. Look at the eff maps for both, and you will see that the 1900 has larger dark blue 'islands'. The 1900 is very eff from 5-10 psi.

The problem with the VMP 1900 is it uses the same, small IC that the M90 uses (it's also the same IC as used on the M112 cobra). That plus the 05-09 M90 kits came with a real small HE, no fans, and the 4 gpm Bosch pump.
The VMP 1900 is still a good upgrade for an existing M90. It's a simple swap. On a 2010 M90, it's even faster, just 6 bolts..done.. 1/2 hr job.