GT500 fuel pumps on E85?

[Sinner]

Guys, my build is shit again and why not throw more fuel on the fire?!?!?

The car is finally going to be getting tuned and the fuel system I have now is GT500 fuel pumps, BAP and bosh 1000 injectors.

However, I just decided that I want to run E85 to reach about 700rw for now but I want to max out the F1R so what is needed?

Will GT500 pumps work with E85 or will they burn up?

Please give details so we can learn, that's why I placed in tech.

 

[retfr8flyr]

Talk to Jeremy abut a fuel system, for E85 and 700rwhp I would go with a high flow, return style system and at least 1500 injectors. You're talking $1500-$2500 for a system, depending on how big you go.

 

[BruceH]

Did you search? I've done 699 actual, uncorrected rwhp with bosch 970cc injectors, gt500 pumps, and a single 40a bap. All returnless with stock lines and rails. No problems. Duty cycle of the fuel system was 86%. You will need bigger pumps to max out the F1. I'd imagine that a larger fuel line would also help.

Lots of people have used stock equipment with E85. Anything American made within the last 15 years is going to be ok.

 

[Sinner]

I have searched and have been reading but I'm still behind in what I need to know.

Plus, the shop I use called me today and said they spoke to a place but I forgot what company they spoke to, it wasn't jdm but something similar that they bought the fuel filter for my car and was told the gt500 pumps would burn up anywhere from a week to a month.

I don't know enough to question anyone and that's why I'm asking. Bruce, your build is the reason I decided to change to E85 because I thought I would be ok with what I have.

You guys know I've had nothing but problems on this build and I've lost my ass but to get the car back and not be at 700rw would be maddening. This has been a horrible horrible build much less for 600rw on pump gas to be the result.

Also I had the dual BAP not the single.... If that makes a difference.

Also why would the gt500 pumps burn up?

**** it was jpc racing that told the shop that the pumps would burn up

 

[Sinner]

Edited

 

[JeremyH]

They seem to work fine just as a regular old walbro gss 255lph pump or a ford gt pump. Are you possibley decreasing pump life, sure. I doubt you will ever notice it though. The difference would be if they are rated to 10,000 hours in gas/e10, it would be 8,500 hours in e85 or higher. That data is sourced from walbro.

You should be able to support 700rwhp on e85 on your setup you mentioned. If you reach the limits of it your best option is a return system due to flow. Also doing a line/filter/rail and pprv delete upgrade is good for about 25% duty cycle drop on that setup with e85.

As for the pumps burning up. When you first switch to e85, the ethanol will clean out alot of gum and varnish in the tank and lines. It is important to check your fuel pump filters and inline filter often after the switch to make sure they arent cloggin up. A clogged fuel pump prefilter will most certainly burn up a pump. Also if the inline filter is clogged the resultant pressure increase pre filter will heat up the pumps as well.

 

[dysan]

I've been running GT500 pumps, 40A single BAP, Jeremy's fuel line upgrade and the Bosch 1000cc injectors without any issues. I raced all year with that setup and last year I was using the GT500 pumps with FRPP 80lb injectors on E85. No issues so far with the pumps in the 2 years I have run E85.

 

[Brezick]

I am thinking about doing the same and switching to e85, but i really did not want to have to swap out to a return system for a small bump.

I make about 550 at the wheels right now, so i would be looking to make whatever the same exact setup would make on e85. probably only 600-625.

I have a set of id1000 I would swap in, but no BAP yet. If I got the S&H line/filter upgrade, wire upgrade, and pprv delete, would that be enough, or would I still need a BAP.

 

[Sinner]

Great info greats and thank you so much.

Brezick, I have a single BAP for sale.

 

[s8v4o]

Can anyone comment on comparing GT500 pumps on a BAP versus twin 465 pumps without a BAP? Will the twin 465's have more flow?

 

[JoshK]

I have been running the gt500 dual pump kit on E85 for 4 years now. Two years ago I added the dual bap, -8 fuel line from hat to rail, high flow -8 filter and id1000 injectors. Car currently puts down 742whp @20lbs and the fpdc is right around 86%

 

[JeremyH]

I am thinking about doing the same and switching to e85, but i really did not want to have to swap out to a return system for a small bump.

I make about 550 at the wheels right now, so i would be looking to make whatever the same exact setup would make on e85. probably only 600-625.

I have a set of id1000 I would swap in, but no BAP yet. If I got the S&H line/filter upgrade, wire upgrade, and pprv delete, would that be enough, or would I still need a BAP.

For 600rwhp yes you would still want a bap. You would be maxing the system or on the ragged edge otherwise.

Can anyone comment on comparing GT500 pumps on a BAP versus twin 465 pumps without a BAP? Will the twin 465's have more flow?

Yes, the twin 465's, will support a solid 1000rwhp on e85. Where as the twin 230-240lph gt500 pumps with a bap is good for around 700rwhp or so depending on setup. Difference is twin 465's will require a return setup. Our fpdm's cant handle them.

 

[s8v4o]

Yes, the twin 465's, will support a solid 1000rwhp on e85. Where as the twin 230-240lph gt500 pumps with a bap is good for around 700rwhp or so depending on setup. Difference is twin 465's will require a return setup. Our fpdm's cant handle them.

Is this because of the current draw is too much for the FPDM's? What are the two highest flow pumps that twin FPDM's can handle with a wire upgrade?

 

[JeremyH]

Is this because of the current draw is too much for the FPDM's? What are the two highest flow pumps that twin FPDM's can handle with a wire upgrade?

Amp pull and pressure are a part, but its mainly the flow response. On a smaller pump modulating voltage will provide x amount of flow where as the larger pumps it's significantly more. Which results in fuel spikes ( and i mean big spikes 90-100psi) and then subsequent dips when it tries to ramp down voltage again, which in the end means unstable fuel pressure. While datalogging duty cycle you get fpdm fail and shutdown codes as well. What the frps is telling the pcm and what the pcm is telling the fpdm to do to the pumps doesnt jive within the parameters it can handle. This results in fpdm's that are almost too hot to touch, thermal shutdown and increased amp pull by the pumps which means a significant loss in flow, from the testing I did on Greg's car we saw 30-35% loss in flow from where it was supposed to be.

Twin fpmd's with upgraded wiring can handle 320-340lph pumps. The best and most consistent results were from the deatschwerks 320 and the aem 340 pumps, never had an issue with them. I have had inconsistent results with the aeromotive 340 and divsionx 340l pumps, not flowing like they are supposed to.

For single fpdm and wiring upgrade it can handle one 340 or 405 pump or two gt supercar pumps but no more. Had poor results trying to do one 465 or two 340's on a single fpdm just doesn't perform right or flow like its supposed to.

 

[s8v4o]

Twin fpmd's with upgraded wiring can handle 320-340lph pumps. The best and most consistent results were from the deatschwerks 320 and the aem 340 pumps, never had an issue with them. I have had inconsistent results with the aeromotive 340 and divsionx 340l pumps, not flowing like they are supposed to.

For single fpdm and wiring upgrade it can handle one 340 or 405 pump or two gt supercar pumps but no more. Had poor results trying to do one 465 or two 340's on a single fpdm just doesn't perform right or flow like its supposed to.

Thanks for the information. I do have one more question though. You mention the twin setup can handle twin 340's and then a single can handle the 405. Would there be issues running two 405 with two FPDM's running wire upgrades?

 

[JeremyH]

No prob. That is why I decied to put two 405 on a gt500 hat. I figured if one fpdm can handle one, two could handle two, but it was not the case, just too much flow. Its the twin fpdm twin 405 and 465 setups that don't work correctly that I was talking about earlier. Just too much flow for the pcm to handle in returnless. On a twin fpdm setup, the pcm still only sees one fpdm the second on is just mirroring the command and monitor from the other and sharing the load. So the pcm wants more fuel, it starts to ramp up the pump and gets the reposnse from pumps that can flow around 900lph combined. By the time that fuel reaches the frps at the rail, its just too much fuel, so then it has to ramp back down. Its this increased load on the fpdm and pump that causes the heat, current and flow loss/control issues.

Single 405 single fpdm works, this is around 430lph of flow and is a dcss so there are in fact two turbine impellers, so may as well be two smaller pump and amp pull is lower 15-17amps. Hence why the two smaller ford gt pumps operate well. They only draw around 8amps a piece and are easier to control even when theres twon of them.

But the single fpdm single 465 starts having issues, it also draws alot more current than the 405.

Maybe if you had two fpdm's to share the pulse width modification load you could have them feed a single 465 and it may work. I have never tried that. But I do know they dont perform on a single fpdm setup. The two I have built and tested barely performed better than a stock pump with a bap and had the pressure issues I spoke of.

 

[BruceH]

All I can do is post my experience. I've been running E85 on and off for around 5 years. Here are the GT500 pump setups I've run with forced induction and E85.

2.3 Whipple with 80lb injectors ran out of fuel at 575rwhp. Changing the power feeder to 8 gauge allowed for 599.

Paxton 1200 with 47lb long GT500 injectors went 525rwhp. 80lb injectors allowed a full pull to 57x.

Procharger D1 with 970cc Bosch injectors and a 40a bap. 699rwhp was 86% duty cycle. The delta pressure for the injectors was 39.15. They were rated to flow 127lbs at 4 bar but I didn't see the need.

DOB M122 with a 322 cubic inch big bore motor. 585rwhp with 2013 GT500 injectors. Commanded delta in the higher flows was 55psi. IIRC duty cycle was 78%.

All of these have been with stock lines and rails. I like the returnless setup and just haven't seen spikes or had any issues that would cause me to think about a return system. I like being able to command the delta psi in the tune. Lower psi for normal driving and higher if it's needed. I also think that cooler fuel is going to help absorb cylinder heat better than heated up fuel will. I can't see running the pumps full blast all the time adding heat to the fuel when I don't have to.

Maybe JPC was talking about GT500 pumps run as a return system? I'd like to think they didn't just make that stuff up and that it's based on some sort of experience. I'm sure there is more to the story and some unusual demands were made of the pumps. Or, the socks plugged up when the ethanol cleaned all the gasoline deposits and varnishes which in turn caused the pumps to burn up?

I'm sorry about all the money spent and lost. Just another reason to do your own work, it costs less to screw your car up. Lol.

 

[Sinner]

Great info guys and thank you for the responses.

As of now I will either just be replacing stock filter for E85 filter and hoping for 700rw

Or

I will add 8 line from hat to rails with filter

Or

I will add 8 line, filter and two aem 340e pumps.

I'm really leaning towards only changing the filter for now. I want to keep costs down right now plus I will most likely put a return system on the car in a year if all goes well.

 

[BruceH]

Great info guys and thank you for the responses.

As of now I will either just be replacing stock filter for E85 filter and hoping for 700rw

Or

I will add 8 line from hat to rails with filter

Or

I will add 8 line, filter and two aem 340e pumps.

I'm really leaning towards only changing the filter for now. I want to keep costs down right now plus I will most likely put a return system on the car in a year if all goes well.

I've always used the stock fuel filter. It works just fine. Like previously mentioned though you should probably replace it after a few tanks of e85 if you have been using "ethanol free" gas. I try to replace mine once a year.

 

[Sinner]

Ok sounds great. I plan to replace fuel filter and pump sock after a couple tanks of gas