Help me choose a suspension setup

Norm Peterson

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Easy there, JJ. Unjustified would be if I had a hidden agenda, like if I was starting up a line of structural bracing of my own design and wanted to emphasize how it was better than KB's (or anybody else's, for that matter).

But I'm not, so what you're getting is unbiased thoughts. If I was getting paid for them, I might be able to call them engineering summaries instead.


Norm
 

modernbeat

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Having measured the stiffness of the S197 body shell, it would be extremely difficult to achieve any measurable improvement from a small part like the braces we are talking about. Having worked with the floppy Fox and SN95 cars, I was concerned. But the S197 stiffness was off the charts.

The deflection we see in the car is almost all in the suspension mounting bushings. And for dedicated street use, we retain them as NVH goes up quickly when replaced with a substitute.
 

Pentalab

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How are you folks measuring deflection ? If the car is that stiff, then why can't you jack it up in the middle, at a mid point between normal front + rear jacking points ? I'm talking strictly about the chassis / frame, not the suspension mounting bushings etc.

Other than jjr427, I don't know anybody else with the KB version. Didn't even know they made a version.
However, the BMR version is well known..and appears a lot more robust than all of them.
https://www.bmrsuspension.com/?page=products&productid=191&superpro=0 Square + rectangular tubing would be difficult to bend in either plane.

Having said that, the various brace offerings appear to provide more support in the lateral plane..vs the vertical plane, by virtue of their design. On paper, I would have thought that less flex in the vertical plane would be more beneficial... the car appears to have plenty of lateral strength.

What's really needed is 2 x virtually identical setup cars.... one with the brace..and one without. Then do some back to back exhaustive testing + analysis. Get several experts to drive both cars. Then repeat with a different brand of brace. Then you could come to some conclusion. And don't tell the various driver's about any bracing. IE: A blind test.

jjr427's 2.5 sec lap redux is coming from somewhere.
 

Norm Peterson

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How are you folks measuring deflection ? If the car is that stiff, then why can't you jack it up in the middle, at a mid point between normal front + rear jacking points ? I'm talking strictly about the chassis / frame, not the suspension mounting bushings etc.
Torsional stiffness cannot be measured in the same (relatively) easy way that bending stiffness can be. And since it is entirely possible to have a structure that's quite rigid in bending without being very rigid at all in torsion, you can't even use bending stiffness to indicate much about torsional stiffness.


Having said that, the various brace offerings appear to provide more support in the lateral plane..vs the vertical plane, by virtue of their design.
Exactly.

Now keep in mind that both of those bending situations can be described in 2D, while torsion really needs to go 3D (i.e "out of the paper").


On paper, I would have thought that less flex in the vertical plane would be more beneficial... the car appears to have plenty of lateral strength.
Torsion is what you're interested in when it comes to suspension tuning - the part concerned with lateral load transfer and how that gets distributed (front to rear). That's because it's moments and rotations about the car's longitudinal axis (i.e. as seen in front view) that you're working with, and the chassis in torsion is simply a spring in series with the suspension roll resistances and the tire vertical stiffnesses. I'm good with ignoring effects due to bushing compliances here.

I suppose vertical bending stiffness does affect caster, and lateral bending stiffness perhaps *could* affect toe, but I think we can ignore those unless the car's chassis is already a wet noodle.

I actually stumbled across a list of vehicle torsional stiffnesses. Unless indicated otherwise, numbers are in Nm/deg.

Ford
Ford Fiesta 3-door (3rd gen, 1989 – 1997) 6,500
Ford Focus 3-door 19,600
Ford Focus 5-door 17,900
Ford Fusion (2010 – 2012) 17,453 (1,000 kNm/rad)
Ford Fusion (2013 – ) 19,286 (1,105 kNm/rad)
Ford GT 27,100
Ford GT40 MkI 17,000
Ford Maverick 4,400
Ford Mustang 2003 16,000
Ford Mustang 2005 21,000 . . . . . . . . . 15,500 ft*lb/deg approximately
Ford Mustang Convertible (2003) 4,800 . . . . . . . . . 3,540 ft*lb/deg approximately
Ford Mustang Convertible (2005) 9,500 . . . . . . . . . 7,000 ft*lb/deg approximately



It should be obvious that adding most any sort of bracing to something like a Fiesta, Maverick, or any convertible will yield far greater improvements than adding the same or comparable stiffening to an S197 coupe. Even the 2003 coupe stands to gain greater benefit from any given amount of added bracing than an S197 coupe.


Chevy wasn't as forthcoming with Camaro numbers (no coupe numbers at all), but it should be interesting to note the difference between the bending and torsional frequencies. As above, Corvette data is in Nm/deg.

Chevrolet
Chevrolet Camaro Convertible (2011 – 2015) 18 Hz (torsional, dynamic), 21 Hz (bending, dynamic)
Chevrolet Corvette C5 9,100
Chevrolet Corvette C7 (2014 – ) 14,500


Norm[/QUOTE]
 
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JJ427R

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Here are my numbers:
2016 before matrix brace my lap times at BIR on 2.5 mile track were avg. 2:03-2:07 with my fastest lap at 2:02
2017 after Matrix brace install, my times immediately were 2:02-2:04 with my fastest lap at 2:00 that's a full 2 seconds a lap faster
2018 times with no other changes and same set of tires from 2017 were 1:59- 2:02 with my fastest lap at 1:59, could say 1:58 as it was very close ( I get my times off go pro video) Now that was me getting faster... :) Which I attribute to better cornering from Matrix brace...

Road America my numbers did not change as much, primarily because of more traffic on the track. I avg. about the same times 2016-2018.
However I was about 5 mph faster cornering through the Corousel after matrix brace....

If it is placebo affect and I just think it made me faster, then I'll bolt on stuff that just adds weight all day long....
 

Pentalab

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Torsional stiffness, if I have the story correct, is longitudinal twisting. If 2" x 1.5" square tubular jacking rails et all are installed, and now the car can be jacked up anywhere along the newly installed frame rails, I think we can safely assume that somewhat less twisting is the result. Last week in April..1st week in May, when I do the annual wheel /tire swap, I will try and measure the deflection / difference between front and rear heights above ground for the rocker panel...... while jacking up the front..on each side. Then repeat when swapping the rears. Then install a pair of steeda jacking rails, then repeat the process. Like how much difference in front / rear heights... when tire is say 1/16" above the ground. IF the newly added jacking rails reduce the height difference, I would expect some degree of increased torsional stiffness.

I already have the pair of Steeda frame rail and torque box braces installed, bolted and welded into place.
( along with the BMR rear tunnel brace..which is 1/4" thick plate...+ steeda rear stb, also welded). That being the case, I can't install full length jacking rails. The steeda jacking rails are shorter, so they can be used with the steeda frame rail + tq box brace. I already know the effect of the pair of existing tq box braces, and rear stb + tunnel brace...that's old news. That solidified the back end. I'd like to see the effect of the addition of the pair of 2" x 1.5" square tube frame rails. At $118.00 for the pair, it would provide for a low cost experiment. They are just a simple bolt in affair, I will also weld em in a few spots.
https://www.steeda.com/steeda-s197-mustang-jacking-rails.html If the experiment bombs you will be the 1st to know about it.
 

Norm Peterson

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Torsional stiffness, if I have the story correct, is longitudinal twisting. If 2" x 1.5" square tubular jacking rails et all are installed, and now the car can be jacked up anywhere along the newly installed frame rails, I think we can safely assume that somewhat less twisting is the result.
All this is true, but there's only so much twisting you can take out of a chassis that only twists about 0.3°/g to begin with, and the amount of performance benefit that you can extract from a small reduction in that is limited further still.


Norm
 

Pentalab

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All this is true, but there's only so much twisting you can take out of a chassis that only twists about 0.3°/g to begin with, and the amount of performance benefit that you can extract from a small reduction in that is limited further still.


Norm
So why is it when I jack up the right front, the right rear is still on the ground ? If it's not twisting, what is it doing ?
 

JJ427R

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So why is it when I jack up the right front, the right rear is still on the ground ? If it's not twisting, what is it doing ?
Pentalab just nailed it. After Matrix brace and jacking rails, I can jack from right in front of rear wheel and it lifts the entire side of the car off the ground, prior no way. How do you explain this with your no flex in the chassis theory?
 

Norm Peterson

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So why is it when I jack up the right front, the right rear is still on the ground ? If it's not twisting, what is it doing ?
In jacking the RF up, you've also jacked the left-rear down because diagonal corners either gain weight together or lose weight together. IOW, you're also rolling the rear over, so looking only at the right side can't give you the entire picture. I think you'd have to measure all four corners (guessing you'll need to be better than the nearest 1/16") to have any shot at estimating changes in chassis twist.

The part that is twisting in a static measurement situation is probably way beyond any amount that actually happens in a corner (short of hitting a really bad curbing or having made some really stupid choices with spring and sta-bar rates). Chassis twist is actually a distributed effect, because mass is distributed, and even that mass is not at any uniform distance from any notion of a chassis axis that it actually twists about.


There's an SAE paper on this topic, as applied to a Winston Cup chassis that describes a setup for measuring torsional stiffness, quite a few different efforts at stiffening it, and which summarized where the most effective stiffening was added. I think they were mostly stiffenings that triangulated rather than added 'own stiffnesses' to the total, which may not even be an applicable approach to stiffening a roadgoing car.

https://cecas.clemson.edu/~lonny/old/pubs/journal/sae983053.pdf

I may have a copy somewhere if you can't find or download it.


Norm
 

JJ427R

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This just keeps getting more ridiculous, now your bringin NASCAR and some SAE papers BS into this.
As I said bfore , you've never tried these items so you don't really know what they will do. You are going on something you read on paper, on a car that does not ever pertain to this discussion.
As I said above I can now jack my car anywhere on the side and lift the entire side of my car, prior to jacking rails and matrix brace no way this could be done. So if these items do nothing in stiffening the chassis, how is this possible?
 

Pentalab

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That PDF is superb reading. Note the introduction.

"INTRODUCTION: Increased torsional stiffness of a race car chassis improves vehicle handling by allowing the suspension components to control a LARGER percentage of a vehicle's kinematics, i.e., predictable handling can best be achieved if the chassis is STIFF ENOUGH so that roll stiffness acting between the sprung mass and the unsprung mass is due almost entirely to the suspension [1]. In addition, a race car chassis must have adequate torsional stiffness so that chassis structural dynamic modes do not adversely couple with the suspension dynamic modes. "

I take it that they want the suspension to respond independently from any chassis flex...which implies minimal to no chassis flex at all. The fellow jacking up the nascar always jacks it up dead center, between the front / rear wheels. Then the entire side comes up off the ground.

Ford tells me don't even think about jacking up my mustang, dead center, between front and rears..it will bend..permanently. Only exception is..if jacking rails are used.
 

JJ427R

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This Pentalab guy is a smart dude.... :) All I can say now is Go Vikings!!!
 

Norm Peterson

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Pentalab just nailed it. After Matrix brace and jacking rails, I can jack from right in front of rear wheel and it lifts the entire side of the car off the ground, prior no way. How do you explain this with your no flex in the chassis theory?
It probably doesn't take as much of an increase in torsional stiffness as you think. There's too many unknowns to give you much of an analysis, but the difference between lifting a tire off the ground that stayed on the ground before might only need a few hundred ft*lb/deg more stiffness. Compared to 21,000, that's peanuts, couple of percent.


Norm
 

Norm Peterson

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That PDF is superb reading. Note the introduction.

"INTRODUCTION: Increased torsional stiffness of a race car chassis improves vehicle handling by allowing the suspension components to control a LARGER percentage of a vehicle's kinematics, i.e., predictable handling can best be achieved if the chassis is STIFF ENOUGH so that roll stiffness acting between the sprung mass and the unsprung mass is due almost entirely to the suspension [1]. In addition, a race car chassis must have adequate torsional stiffness so that chassis structural dynamic modes do not adversely couple with the suspension dynamic modes. "

I take it that they want the suspension to respond independently from any chassis flex...which implies minimal to no chassis flex at all. The fellow jacking up the nascar always jacks it up dead center, between the front / rear wheels. Then the entire side comes up off the ground.

Ford tells me don't even think about jacking up my mustang, dead center, between front and rears..it will bend..permanently. Only exception is..if jacking rails are used.
Bending stiffness is a different animal. Especially in this instance where it's not even a general chassis bending issue (it's really a local bending issue).


Norm
 

JJ427R

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Norm, I think you should be in politics....
 

Norm Peterson

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This just keeps getting more ridiculous, now your bringin NASCAR and some SAE papers BS into this.
As I said bfore , you've never tried these items so you don't really know what they will do. You are going on something you read on paper, on a car that does not ever pertain to this discussion.
As I said above I can now jack my car anywhere on the side and lift the entire side of my car, prior to jacking rails and matrix brace no way this could be done. So if these items do nothing in stiffening the chassis, how is this possible?
Actually I have some hands-on experience that's closer than most folks ever get. I'm a structural engineer by education and profession, and I do nearly all of my own fabrication and welding. So I see things like this from both directions.

For one example, the Cliff's Notes version is that it was a crack that had run up the entire inside of the driver side rail on a full-frame car was starting to progress around the corners into the top and bottom "flange" portions of that rectangular tube (built up from two channels, IIRC). Right at the weld to the front crossmember. I noticed it when jacking up the RR corner one day that something just looked different about the way the car was lifting, so I started looking underneath. With the above background, it didn't take long to find the problem. Which I promptly fixed (yeah, the welding I've done includes structural stuff like this).

Part of being an engineer is having the ability to relate concepts that you're already familiar with to specific situations. One wouldn't be worth much as an engineer otherwise.


Norm
 

JJ427R

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Thanks, I think.

I do try to be even-tempered.


Norm
I say that because you never really answered my question, you just diverted to something else....
Please answer/explain this:
As I said above I can now jack my car anywhere on the side and lift the entire side of my car, prior to jacking rails and matrix brace no way this could be done. So if these items do nothing in stiffening the chassis, how is this possible?
Looking at this now I gained almost 4 seconds time in just a few session on track after this was installed. So you are saying this all me huh? I wish I was that good... Mario Andretti I'm not....
 
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ddd4114

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All this is true, but there's only so much twisting you can take out of a chassis that only twists about 0.3°/g to begin with, and the amount of performance benefit that you can extract from a small reduction in that is limited further still.
I have to agree with Norm on this, and I think this is the key. I would not be surprised if the braces increased stiffness, but that doesn't necessarily mean the car will be faster around a track.

To address what you'll probably ask first: No, I have not tried these either, but I'm also skeptical for the same reasons Norm is. I don't have the structural analysis experience he does, but I've been working as a mechanical engineer for almost a decade, and some of my experience has been in race car development. Instead of jumping into the "you don't know if you don't try it" stalemate (which is a logical fallacy, but anyway...), I'll share some of my own experience.

First, I can easily lift up the whole side of my car from anywhere along the frame, and I don't have any kind of aftermarket bracing. I just have stiff springs and a stiffer rear sway bar. I do have a 4-point roll bar that connects the rear shock towers, but I didn't notice any significant difference after installing it. Maybe some chassis bracing would make the other wheel come off the ground faster, but the point is that the S197 chassis is plenty stiff from the factory, and this kind of observation is not a useful indication of rigidity without supporting measurements.

Second, regarding this post:
However I was about 5 mph faster cornering through the Corousel after matrix brace....
I looked at some old data from when I used to go to Road America, and the only time I gained this much speed in the carousel was after going from NT-01's to R7's:

TireComparison.jpg


The R7's were worth ~0.1g (80->85 mph), which is HUGE. In contrast, I've been playing with spring/bar/alignment tuning for years, and I've never seen this much of a change unless I've made the car setup significantly worse. In those cases, I experimented with big changes in lateral load transfer distribution and immediately regretted it. If Norm's figure of 0.3 deg/g is correct, that's about 10 times less than the total roll gradient, so it's extremely unlikely that simple bracing like this could make any measurable difference in LLTD or roll gradient, which ultimately means no measurable difference in grip.

Also, if your hot laps are varying by 2-4 seconds on a 2:00 course, that's actually quite a lot. If you're driving consistently, you should be able to drive well within 1 sec (all else being equal). I'm not trying to be a jerk, but this matters if you're saying the lap time difference is almost entirely attributed to this part.

Taking all of this into consideration, I think the most likely explanation is that your skill also improved a lot after you installed the brace, and that is what dropped your lap times. Maybe it was from experience or maybe it was placebo effect. However, if bracing like this could really drop 2 seconds without any other changes, we would be seeing it used on every serious S197 track car without a full cage. It's pretty common for people to install jacking rails (for that purpose), but I've never heard somebody say they provide a noticeable performance improvement until now.

I appreciate that you're sharing your experience, but unfortunately, it just doesn't make physical sense that you gained 5 mph in the RA carousel and dropped 2 sec from this alone. Maybe we're missing something, but please understand that to us, it seems like you're grasping onto this idea with little evidence to support it. Saying that we won't know if we don't try is not a good argument.
 

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