Help me choose a suspension setup

[DevGittinJr]

Just my $.02. No lap times or scientific data, but I have the bmr full length sfc's and the difference is unquestionably significant - as in, there are maybe a handful of bolt-ons that, alone, make this much of a change in the way the car drives. The car seems to take a set quicker and definitely applies power better with sfc's. It's also very true that there is a big difference when jacking one corner as described above. The bmr's are very similar to the kb's except the bmr's have square tubing and wrap around the torque boxes as well.

Call it placebo, but I also have the ls x-brace and the difference in performance is far less dramatic. I actually noticed it more, if any, when I took it back out to have it painted. IIRC the sfc's were about $250, and (I remember good and well) the x-brace was $1400. I assume the placebo thing works backwards?

 

[strangeshep43]

I installed C H E performance K-Member brace with Engine Torque limiters on my 05 GT and it stiffened the whole car up, I have about 13,000 in upgrades and that was one of the best upgrades I did, I get on it now and the whole car stays flat, there cheap and work very well, and it's a 5 Speed

 

[JJ427R]

This entire .... 'argument' could easily be resolved in a few days this spring. Norm, Vorshlag et all, installs the KB matrix brace, then evaluates it. They both have welding equipment. Then post the detailed results, including pix of install. Heck, I'd even contribute lotsa $$$ to a ...'gofund me' campaign, if they can't afford it. I'm dead serious. Norm would be the #1 prime candidate, since his car has minimal mods to begin with.. and he has driven it on track for years now. This is the only way this will ever get resolved.

I think Pentalab is on the money here, I'd be more than willing to contribute to this as well. My next suggestion would be to get in touch with the manufacturers of the braces that have been mentioned on this thread (BMR, Steeda, Kenny Brown, etc) give them the whole story, and get them involved in the conversation as well. I would love to hear what they have to say about this, maybe we can get them to donate product for a test.
I'd be more than willing to start this whole process by contacting the Manufacturers today.... I've been considering doing this anyway so I may just for my own appeasement. I personally don't think it's right for them to get slammed by another vendor (Vorshlag-Fair) on their product when that vendor has not even tried it.

 

[Pentalab]

Go for it, contact all 3 vendors asap. What's been said, esp about KB, is borderline libel. Clarify that this is about S-197 cars, 05-14.

The KB item is their...."extreme matrix brace".... http://store.kennybrown.com/product...m-2005-2014-mustang-boss-302-and-shelby-gt500

The BMR item is their..... "SFC011 - Subframe Connectors, Weld-on, Boxed"
https://www.bmrsuspension.com/?page=products&productid=191&superpro=0

The steeda itemS are their ...
"Steeda S197 Mustang Jacking Rails" https://www.steeda.com/steeda-s197-mustang-jacking-rails.html

and their mating...
"Steeda Mustang Frame Rail & Torque Box Brace"
https://www.steeda.com/steeda-mustang-frame-rail-torque-box-brace-555-5551.html

 

[eighty6gt]

Kenny Brown is still around!!

 

[Pentalab]

Here are some more.."do-dads" that work pretty damned good.
https://www.steeda.com/steeda-mustang-front-swaybar-mount-brace-555-8113.html I used these in conjunction with my Roush front sway bar.

Whitelines version of the above is: https://www.americanmuscle.com/whiteline-fca-brace-0510.html

https://www.americanmuscle.com/bmr-aarm-support-red-0514.html This item actually does tie the A arms together. It resides 6" in front of and parallel to the oem Ford "A arm brace".

Steeda's version of the BMR A arm brace is called a G-trac brace , located in exactly the same position as the BMR version. https://www.steeda.com/steeda-2005-up-mustang-g-trac-brace-555-5530.html

Here is the oem Ford " A arm brace". It was not included as OEM on 05-07 coupes, only verts. It should be on as OEM on both 08-14 verts + coupes. Although called an A arm brace, it actually ties the back ends of the OEM K frame together. If it's missing from your car, it needs to be installed asap. https://www.steeda.com/Ford-Perform...ower-Control-Arm-Brace-2005-2014_p_14076.html

Here is steeda's infamous "X brace", located in the trunk. This version is unique, in that the rear seats are NOT deleted. It's made from 4130 heat treated Chromolly steel, using 1.125" OD tubing..and .083" thick. https://www.steeda.com/steeda-mustang-rear-chassis-xbrace-555-5093.html

Here is Steeda's mating rear STB. Can be used in conjunction with the above 'X' brace. Goes between the rear shock towers... in the trunk. It gets WELDED into place. Comes with spherical's on each end, also locking nuts, so overall length can be adjusted for a precise fit. Reverse threaded on one end of course, just like a turnbuckle. I had to tweak those tabs a bit, to get a more snug fit, before tig welding em into place. And yes, you can still lift up the spare tire floor cover easily..as the floor cover hinge point resides aft of the rear STB assy ( ditto with steeda X brace). https://www.steeda.com/steeda-2005-2014-mustang-rear-shock-tower-brace-555-5750.html

Here is steeda's front STB, that clears the Roush M90 blower easily..and also clears the oem hood. It's a thing of beauty. It uses all 4 studs of the Strut mount..at each end..via the recessed holes. Adjustable locking threads on each end allow for total length adjustment. Ok, now the stb is bolted down solidly, with 26 ft lbs on all 8 x studs. Rvs threaded at one end... again, just like a turnbuckle. Most stb's use only the inboard 2 x studs on each side..and use oval holes, which makes for a weak stb assy. The beauty of the steeda front stb is that the transverse bolt / nut at either / both ends can be removed... and stb can then be swung up at either end...or removed entirely! I used that feature when swapping my oem twin 55mm TB, with the FRPP twin 62mm TB. Also used this feature when swapping out plug #8. The beauty is... the 8 x studs are not touched. You don't wanna touch those 8 x studs, esp if the mating steeda HD strut mount is used.... other wide you will screw up the carefully dialed in camber.
https://www.steeda.com/steeda-mustang-roush-supercharger-billet-strut-tower-brace-555-5726.html

Here is the 2nd Steeda STB that also clears the M90 blower assy..and also the oem hood on my 2010 GT. I installed this version, but the above also clears the M90..and hood.
https://www.steeda.com/steeda-mustang-whipple-billet-strut-tower-brace-555-5725.html

I installed the BMR rear tunnel brace + mating DS safety loop, this unit ties the pair of oem inboard boxed tubes together. I used this in conjunction with the pair of steeda frame rail tq box braces. https://www.bmrsuspension.com/?page=products&productid=142&superpro=0 The steeda units tie the outer boxed tubes together. That entire mess goes from one extreme side to the other extreme side of the car..and forms one homogenous brace. https://www.steeda.com/steeda-mustang-frame-rail-torque-box-brace-555-5551.html The BMR rear tunnel brace is 1/4" thick plate. I welded the tunnel brace and also the pair of steeda frame rail tq box braces.

Compared to local mustangs here in town, that have none of this stuff, the difference is night and day. I swapped cars with several of em. You would have to have your head up your ass not to notice the difference.

 

[Juice]

The only brace I have on mine currently is the stock A arm/G brace. I cant see any reason to buy an aftermarket one.

As for measuring the different braces' effectivenes by laptimes, that isnt the best IMO. At an HPDE event, it is rare to get in laps witbout traffic. The rear X brace interests me since Ford put it in cars that were going to see track duty.

For now, Im doing minor aero mods and stepping up to Pirelli DH slicks on 19x10s on all four corners.

 

[Pentalab]

The only brace I have on mine currently is the stock A arm/G brace. I cant see any reason to buy an aftermarket one.

As for measuring the different braces' effectiveness by laptimes, that isn't the best IMO. At an HPDE event, it is rare to get in laps without traffic. The rear X brace interests me since Ford put it in cars that were going to see track duty.

For now, I'm doing minor aero mods and stepping up to Pirelli DH slicks on 19x10s on all four corners.

The BMR A arm brace (and steeda's G trac version) resides 6" in front of, (and parallel to) the oem ford 'A arm brace'. ..and just aft of the oil pan. The oem ford 'A arm brace' doesn't brace the A arms at all.... it ties the back ends of the oem K frame together. The oem ford A arm brace resides directly below the firewall. The BMR / G trac does tie the A arms together. Dead simple install with either the BMR / Steeda G trac unit... both use the oem A arm bolts..which have bucketloads of excess thread.

I looked at the FRPP X brace..and also several of steeda's X braces.. but all required the rear seat delete..which sucks. The newer steeda X brace goes between the rear shock towers..and also behind the rear seats... no rear seat delete required. They sell a lot of em. You can bolt the tops with 2 x bolts on either side..which also leaves a 3rd hole on either side..to weld to. So bolted / welded / or both.

 

[Juice]

I will likely have to do the rear seat delete. Im starting to feel the need for a roll bar atleast, harness, and racing seats I feel are in my future.

 

[Pentalab]

Ok, here's a few more 'do-dads' that actually work.

https://www.steeda.com/steeda-mustang-upper-strut-mounts-555-8120.html The oem strut mounts are one time use junk...and allow for no camber adjustment. The steeda HD units work superb in conjunction with the steeda front STB I installed. -2 deg of camber works good on a plane jane street car. The Vorshlag strut mount is even heavier duty ( 3/4" vs 5/8") and also allows for caster adj.

https://www.steeda.com/steeda-mustang-engine-mounts-555-4005.html for the 05-14 GT cars
https://www.steeda.com/steeda-gt500-mustang-engine-mounts-555-4009.html for the 07-14 GT-500's.

I used these on my 2010 GT....per my JBA LT install manual. The 05-14 GT version comes with 4 x red bushings..and 2 x black bushings. The black bushings have a stiffer durometer. Per the steeda install manual, I used one red and one black....on each side, vs 2 x reds per side. ( the GT-500 version gets 4 x blacks only). Oem heat shields are re-used. No increase in NVH, and eng does not flop about side to side, when you get on and off it. If you have a shaker hood, it won't shake. Also allows for oem eng height, or a 1/4" - 1/2" - 3/4" eng drop. I opted for the 1/4" eng drop. Ok, now instead of my steeda front STB just touching my roush oval rubber CAI tube, I have some clearance. JBA LT primary's on driver's side easily clear the steering shaft. CG is lowered a bit.

https://www.americanmuscle.com/whiteline-wattslink-0510.html I got this item years ago, when price was way less...and on sale. Previously, I had the excellent BMR on car adj PHB + mating BMR brace.
https://www.bmrsuspension.com/?page=products&productid=172&superpro=0
https://www.bmrsuspension.com/?page=products&productid=173&superpro=0 OEM PHB brace is 3 sideded sheet metal junk.

https://www.bmrsuspension.com/?page=products&productid=156&superpro=0 These are 2" x 1.25" square tubing boxed LCA's, non adjustable, with poly on both ends, I use synthetic grease in a dedicated grease gun for these LCA's. I had a pair of the GT-500 types, but never installed em.

https://www.bmrsuspension.com/?page=products&productid=170&superpro=0 These are the defacto
go to LCA relocate brackets... and each one is bolted in 3 places. Steeda's version is only bolted in one place..and have to be welded in. I started off in the top holes, then moved to the middle holes a year later. Now it sticks.

https://www.bmrsuspension.com/?page=products&productid=163&superpro=0 This is the adjustable 05-10 BMR UCA, with poly. Mating 05-10 UCA mount. https://www.bmrsuspension.com/?page=products&productid=160&superpro=0 Gas tank has to be dropped on any 05-10 car.

This mother is HD..and can also be used on the 05-10 cars, provided the mating UCA mount is used.
https://www.bmrsuspension.com/?page=products&productid=944&superpro=0
Mating UCA mount..... https://www.bmrsuspension.com/?page=products&productid=964&superpro=0

https://www.vmpperformance.com/Eaton-31-Spline-TrueTrac-Differential-for-05-14-8-p/dts-913a561.htm
I had this installed at the same time as my Whiteline watts link. The oem LSD is fubar at best. The combo watts link + Eaton tru-trac is a killer combo.

The rest of my suspension is all Roush, including front and rear sway bars, lowering springs, front struts / rear shocks ( both are monotube), etc, etc. https://www.americanmuscle.com/roush-stage-2-suspension-kit-0510-gt.html

Ok, that's it for 'do-dads'. Only other misc stuff is M90 blower, JBA LT's, aeroforce gauges, sos pods, boost gauge, cdc lower grille and silicone rubber air hoses for front brakes, side splitters, GT-500 rear spoiler + flap, and the usual stuff for a street car, 285-40-18 fronts and 305-35-19 rears, SS brake lines, catch cans for tranny / eng / differential...blah blah.

Sri for the diatribe.

 

[Pentalab]

If you are hell bent to dump some weight, one way to do it, albeit expensive, is the DSS-DS. http://www.driveshaftshop.com/domes...-3-1-2o-aluminum-1330-has-no-clearance-issues

I installed the above years ago (weighs 18 lbs)...and tossed the oem 2 piece
(weighs 46 lbs) steel clunker. Zero vibration at 137 mph on the road..and no vibration at 160 mph on the dyno. On a side note, the BMR rear tunnel brace + mating DS safety loop goes just aft of the oem 2 piece DS center bearing. I never bothered with the BMR front DS brace + loop. IF the DS ever busted at the front end, being so short, it can't get past the rear safety loop, which is just aft of the mid point of the shaft. Then it would also have to get past the catted H.

The rear seat comes out in 10 secs, with the help of a 2nd person....and dumps 40 lbs.
Front pass seat comes out with 4 x bolts..and dumps 52 lbs.
Remove any junk in the trunk area...like jack and spare tire etc..another 50 lbs.
The fuel in a full tank weighs 100.6 lbs. With 1/2 tank, you can dump another 50 lbs.

Ok, that's it, I'm done.

 

[Norm Peterson]

I'm not selling anything, or shilling for anybody who does or doesn't. But this thread is doing a great job of highlighting the difficulty in explaining the engineering side of a structural matter to non-engineers (at best, engineers whose experience lies in a totally unrelated field). Especially over the internet.

So I dragged out this other spreadsheet, one that deals with TLLTD, just to see what might happen if you were to increase the S197's torsional stiffness by 50% (without caring what that would actually take). Guess what - the before/after difference in lateral load attracted to the front wheels shows up in the 4th decimal place. As in less than one tenth of 1%. Might as well be "noise".

You'll probably want to discount that analysis as being crude, so I won't bother trying to describe what-all it does consider. Maybe you'll think that 50% stiffer is an unreasonably low figure to use (it still beats no analysis at all, and just in case you do think it's low, I ran it again with double the OE stiffness with the difference still being a 4th decimal place thing).


If I thought I could improve enough on the S197's basic structure to make it worth the time, energy, and expense involved . . . I might well end up with something unlike any of the products listed above. Save, perhaps, for the rear seat X-brace. It wouldn't be the first time. Maybe not the second if you count suggestions made to others.


Norm

 

[Pentalab]

I believe you would see more benefit with the KB / BMR full length SFC's vs the X brace. I like the concept of being able to jack up the car..once, in the middle, and lifting the entire side up. Then swap out both front + rear tires / rims... in one shot. That saves on the pinch welds. That's my idea of a stiff chassis. I see what you are saying though.... with say a 1g left sweeper, the chassis won't twist enough to benefit from increased torsional rigidity. You might be correct, but I believe there are other factors in play...since all the various suspension components tend to interact somewhat. With increased torsional stiffness, that may well lessen the effect of various suspension pieces 'fighting each other'. I'd like to isolate the torsional rigidity from the rest of the suspension bits. I'll find out soon enough, this spring. I'll install the jacking rails 1st...and also the rear X brace 2nd, this spring, one item at a time, 2-3 weeks apart..and weld both of em in. I'm always up for a good experiment.

 

[JJ427R]

I spoke with Rich Cottrell at KB today. I sent him the link to this thread, he read it was very interested to say the least, but he will not respond to these types of threads because you can never really come to any conclusion. We had a nice discussion that true there may be no scientific data on the Matrix Brace or Jacking Rails, and to do a comprehensive test would require lots of components, cars, and drivers. Purchasing a brace for say Norm or Terry Fair would probably not change their opinion on the product anyway even if they did notice a change, cause then they'd have egg on their face.
Rich is also pretty sure Terry Fair has Jacking Rails on his car...

A point that caught my eye, Terry Fair also quoted prior in this thread:

If the OEM's felt they could improve ride and/or handling with doo-dads, don't you think their multi-billion dollar engineering efforts would uncover these tricks?

This coming from a guy who makes a living off caster camber plates, well wouldn't Ford put those on a well???
Also not long ago I remember Vorshlag saying 4 piston brakes were good enough, now they are using 6 piston...

What it comes down to is on any given day any driver could say it works, and the next one might say it doesn't. In my case I felt the KB Matrix Brace worked for me and that is all that really matters. I expressed my opinion as other have.

I wish the OP the best of luck and sorry we hijacked his thread with all this... I'm done now...

 

[ddd4114]

Pentalab, how do you know all of your so-called "do-dads" actually improve performance? How do you know it's not just confirmation bias? Did you install them each individually or in batches? Do you have lateral acceleration data, lap time comparisons, or is it just from how the car "feels" on your local twisty road? If you have actual data, could you share it? I even think something like Norm's TLLTD spreadsheet is a good starting point (assuming the math is correct). I have one too, but mine assumes a perfectly rigid chassis. However, based on what Norm said, it sounds like a pretty good assumption. I use it as a guide for most of my spring/bar changes (that I then test on a track), so I know that you'll absolutely never notice a change of 0.000x% TLLTD. If the change has that small of an effect on TLLTD, it also has an insignificant effect on roll gradient and therefore dynamic alignment changes. Physically, there is no other way to affect tire grip significantly if TLLTD and roll gradient are virtually unchanged. Alignment (dynamically) will be basically unaffected, tire loading will be basically unaffected, so what else is there?

Saying "You would have to have your head up your ass not to notice the difference" is a pretty bold statement. We're all human and are easily deceived. Ever hear of the Dunning-Kruger effect? Like I mentioned earlier, I've tried things that I was sure would be better based on how they "felt" and there was no real performance benefit (or at least, not one I could measure). I've also significantly changed how my car "feels" only to change lap times by a few tenths. Shock tuning is a great example of this. You can easily change the car's behavior with a few clicks on some decent dampers, but as long as your starting point is decent, you're not going to change lap times by seconds; you'll get a few tenths at best.

To be clear: I wouldn't be that surprised if you really did get some kind of performance improvement from your collection of "do-dads", but so far you've provided no real supporting data to prove it. It's easy to say that we have our heads up our asses on the internet, but you're still some dude behind a keyboard, and you're no more or less credible than me, Norm, JJ427R, or anyone else in this thread. Listing a massive parts collection that you say works "pretty damned good" doesn't change that. Terry is a bit of an exception simply because we can easily find lots of Vorshalg's builds, achievements, etc. with some searching. Of course, nobody's perfect, and he's not necessarily correct either.

If you're actually planning to install this stuff and perform "experiments", what's your plan? How are you going to validate your qualitative observations about each part? I'm actually curious about this because if your testing method is sound, it might provide a little more substance to this debate. If it's not, you're probably going to waste your time. Alright, I guess to be fair, if you're having fun, I suppose it's not a waste, and that is the point of all of this anyway. Hopefully it stays that way!

 

[Pentalab]

confirmation bias- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias

Dunning-Kruger effect- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning–Kruger_effect

qualitative observations- Qualitative observation deals with data that can be observed with our senses: sight, smell, touch, taste, and hearing. They do NOT involve measurements or numbers.

"People like to validate their purchases online, always - this is just a false portrayal, some self-affirming feeling they need to express to legitimize their choices."

'there is no data to back up these claims. No scientific testing, just "feelings" '

"They are simply a lot of semi-useless parts"

"folks slinging miracle parts"

"not validate Bolt On Ballast ideas"

"altering the car's structural vibration response"

" non functional do-dads"

"driver composure effect"

"a hidden agenda"

"I'm also skeptical"

"is not a useful indication of rigidity without supporting measurements. "

"maybe it was placebo effect."

"you're grasping onto this idea with little evidence to support it."

"I still think you're short-changing yourself."

"That's not how this works. When outrageous claims (ie: your's) are made THAT person has to provide "proof" of said claim, not the other way around. "

"Again, you have zero proof other than one anecdotal point "it feels faster", with the added benefit of "self affirmation of parts purchase" added to your claim. "

"Driving with hand controls warrants even more skepticism"

"To a Pro level driver a variance of a couple of tenths between laps is a significant amount."

"All of this sounds more questionable now, not less."

" #BallastMyRide "

"Sorry, their day in the sun was about 2 decades past. These days peddle mostly black magic bolt-on bracing, not real parts backed by science and legitimate testing. "

" Your 'numbers' are incidental observations, rather than scientific measurements."

"cognitive dissonance" ..."plays a significant part" - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance

" subjective"


You folks are really good. I find it somewhat amusing that after all this derogatory trash talk, and some sundry psycho babble thrown in for good measure, nobody took us up on our kind offer to help finance either a KB matrix brace or BMR SFC's. The idea of course, was so the engineering types, pro-racers, etc, could install, then properly evaluate the items in question. Then arrive at some conclusion, or evaluation. Well that ship has sailed, and the deal is off. #NOFREEBRACES . Y'all got your minds made up that the KB matrix brace / BMR SFC's won't / can't work..even though nobody ever came on here, who did have em installed, said they evaluated em, and they don't work. Too bad so sad.

 

[ddd4114]

So... no data? No plan?

 

[Pentalab]

So... no data? No plan?

The 'plan' is to install the new pair of steeda jacking rails, IF I can manage to get the flange on em under the existing flange of the steeda frame rail and tq box braces. The already installed frame rail + tq box braces are triangular..and welded at 2 of the 3 corners. The outside corner is the one that is not welded, only a pair of bolts. Bolts will have to be removed....and jacking rail flat flange slid under, with the tq box flange on top, then pair of bolts back in with red thread locker, then tig weld in about 5 places down the inboard edge of the new 2" x 1.5" rect tube.

They can't overlap the other way around, since the tq box brace flange is a 3 sided, channel piece, with pair of bolts inside the channel. Dunno how tight it's gonna be, with 2 of the 3 x corners already bolted and welded. Ideally, both items should be installed at the same time. But their jacking rails are a new item.

I just want em for ease of swapping tires / wheels out every spring + fall. Right now it's a pita, since I have roush side splitters installed, and they are 3/8" thick. I had to make up a custom spacer to sit on my low profile jack, to fit the narrow slots in the side splitters, where the jack points are, fore and aft. This whole deal will be a lot easier with a solid, dead flat 2" wide x XXX feet long rect tube running almost the entire length. Then just jack in the middle..once..and swap both rims out. IF the perceived handling feels better on the local twisty bits, fine.... but they are being installed for jacking convenience 1st.

The X brace is more of a lark than anything else. I keep getting conflicting info on whether it's compatible with my existing ( welded in) rear steeda STB. Looking at both items, it appears it will be a squeeze to get the bottom corners of the X brace on top of the existing rear STB. I might have to modify and machine out a pair of slots, or do some creative grinding..or both. The challenge is to see if I can get em both to work together, that's the experiment. I only went to one HPDE event..too far to go to attend. Gave up on auto X, bizzare setup, favors ricers. Local drag strip is too short, only 375', way too long between passes, heat soaked by then. The car is now relegated to street use only. I have a ton of other projects and irons in the fire, none are car related. These are the last 2 mods I will do, then that's it, done. One thing I did notice though, these various braces work a lot better once welded. While under there, we will also weld the tunnel brace.

 

[Juice]

A few things that were not mentioned yet....

One of the first things I was told by the instructors in automotive tech school: a vehicle may bend when on a hoist, and IS NORMAL. Dont open doors on lift if can be avoided. I mever seen this when working as a tech.


We should not compare the s197 to older mustangs. The newer cars are built much stronger and from HSS and UHSS steals. Stronger materials.

And last, I have been lifting my car in the middle and servicing one side at a time, open/close doors while lifted without any issues.

Thats it, just some info..

 

[Norm Peterson]

I spoke with Rich Cottrell at KB today. I sent him the link to this thread, he read it was very interested to say the least, but he will not respond to these types of threads because you can never really come to any conclusion. We had a nice discussion that true there may be no scientific data on the Matrix Brace or Jacking Rails, and to do a comprehensive test would require lots of components, cars, and drivers. Purchasing a brace for say Norm or Terry Fair would probably not change their opinion on the product anyway even if they did notice a change, cause then they'd have egg on their face.

Speaking only for myself here, that's where you'd be wrong. But you'd better believe I'd dig a lot deeper into what I noticed than what I've seen here (and elsewhere on other bracing topics).

I know what a half-percent difference in LLT distribution can feel like . . . and downstream from that, what that can mean in terms of driver confidence. That's about a one hole adjustment on an adjustable rear sta-bar. Less than 5% of that, I doubt anybody here would be able to reliably notice the change (let alone isolate the cause).

I'd be all for these braces being pitched as durability mods, or for improvements in subjective drive quality. I just can't buy the magnitude of the performance benefits being claimed as being purely mechanical/structural in nature. That doesn't make anybody's observations or even their lap time measurements wrong.


FWIW, the related roll angle part of that spreadsheet baselines to within 10% of some K&C-determined numbers as reported in C/D a few years back, specifically for an S197 Mustang. Good enough for me, more than good enough for the purposes of this thread.

And I'm not too proud to pass on my thanks to the participants in this thread for prodding me into going back into that sheet in the first place. V04L00 ==> V04L01, minor changes that didn't materially affect anything used here.


Norm