Help me choose a suspension setup

[stevbd]

Like others here I have many times lifted the entire side of my car using only the front jack point on the rocker panel. And when up in the air, the door opens and closes just fine. Not much flex that I can see. No extra bracing.

Going back to the OP's question, I really don't think that "BMW feel" you're looking for is the result of chassis braces or extra rigidity. An e46 chassis is very "controllable" and the chassis is far flexier than our s197. You mention you have a 2005, unknown mileage, a lot of stuff could just be worn out after 13 years, plus a lot of dampers suck. So I would focus on replacing any worn bushings, front and rear control arms, sway bar links, PHB, etc., and then I would really focus on shocks, shocks, shocks. I don't know what comes on that coilover setup you have, but really good shocks are a huge difference maker. A lot of that "taut but supple" feel you get with BMWs I think is the result of excellent dampers. The digressive valving of good Bilstein monotubes is a real difference maker in this area.

 

[JJ427R]

All I can do is give you the information and the numbers I have, sorry you don't believe it or you don't think it's possible. All I can do is offer my data.
I'm by no means an expert and I never claimed to be. I do have go pro footage for just about all of my track time and I get my track times off that footage. Some in footage in car from harness bar and some from front windshield.

I've been doing track days for 7 years now. Started my track career at the BIR Performance Driving school, have roughly 25 days under my belt between there and Road America, where I've also run the last 7 years. I'm paraplegic and drive one handed with hand controls, thus I have an automatic. Control the wheel with my Right hand, left hand controls throttle/brake. This explains a bit of my inconsistency in lap times.

My car is a 2010 Roush 427r with the Roush sport suspension. Started with it stock and have slowly upgraded over the last 7 years.
First thing I installed was a Corbeau Harness bar with 4 point harness' to hold me in the seat. Have to strap my feet in place so they don't go under my pedals.
Tires I've used the last few years are Mickey Thompson Street Comps 275/35/20 on all 4 corners on 20" Roush Wheels.
1st major upgrade was Stoptech 4 pistons up front, stock calipers on rear. Stoptech Braided lines all around. (These were added my 2nd year)
Frozen Rotors Cryo Slotted rotors on front with the stock Roush slotted rotors on rear. Ferodo Racing DS2500 Street/Track Pads on a 4 corners.
(Rotors were added year 3) I've also tried Hawk HP, HPS, and DTC 30 pads.
Next was JDM Engineering trans overflow catch can and Performance Automatic larger pan.
Spring of 2017 I added the Kenny Brown Matrix Brace and Jacking Rails. Later in the year I upgraded cooling with a Fluidyne Triple Flow Triple Pass Radiator and the same Dual fan Heat Exchanger. Also Had a Mishimoto trans cooler but this year swapped that out with a B&M Racing. Trying to resolve trans overheating issues.

 

[JJ427R]

Here is video of my last track day at BIR

 

[stevbd]

JJ, I dunno about chassis bracing but I sure do love that you aren't letting any physical challenges stop you from enjoying and driving the hell out of your car, and then coming on here and having a healthy debate about what works and doesn't. You're inspirational. Props.

 

[JJ427R]

JJ, I dunno about chassis bracing but I sure do love that you aren't letting any physical challenges stop you from enjoying and driving the hell out of your car, and then coming on here and having a healthy debate about what works and doesn't. You're inspirational. Props.

Thanks very much, just my legs don't work anymore, my brain and arms are still fully functional, well part of my brain anyway... (I did grow up in the 70-80's)
I hope I do inspire others in chairs... Actually had my accident anniversary yesterday, 12/29/93 Thrown off my snowmobile going 20mph into a 3 ft tree stump and hit head first, compressed two vertebra in my back. Shit happens, we deal with what god gives us....

 

[Norm Peterson]

I say that because you never really answered my question, you just diverted to something else....
Please answer/explain this:
As I said above I can now jack my car anywhere on the side and lift the entire side of my car, prior to jacking rails and matrix brace no way this could be done. So if these items do nothing in stiffening the chassis, how is this possible?

I never said it doesn't add ANY stiffness. Just that demonstrations like that don't prove that they added as much stiffness as the visual suggests. There's a difference. When I mentioned "the difference between lifting a tire off the ground that stayed on the ground before might only need a few hundred ft*lb/deg more stiffness. Compared to 21,000, that's peanuts, couple of percent." back in post #34, I'd actually run a few order-of-magnitude numbers.

And as ddd has explained, X% more torsional stiffness does not correspond to X% more lateral g's. Or SQRT(1+X%) faster corner speeds and correspondingly quicker lap times. Unless, perhaps, it's crutching a truly serious chassis deficiency, which isn't the case with the S197.

Looking at this now I gained almost 4 seconds time in just a few session on track after this was installed. So you are saying this all me huh?

Basically, yes. Probably not 100.0%, but I'm betting on it being close. Improving that much in only a few sessions (4 seconds, of which 2 had already showed up before the Matrix bracing was added) tells me that you're still in the process of learning a new-to-you car.


Norm

 

[Norm Peterson]

JJ, I dunno about chassis bracing but I sure do love that you aren't letting any physical challenges stop you from enjoying and driving the hell out of your car, and then coming on here and having a healthy debate about what works and doesn't. You're inspirational. Props.

I do have to give you a lot of credit for this.


Norm

 

[JJ427R]

Norm, I thank you for your thinking it's me getting that much better in my driving or more familiar with my car. As much as I'd like to take the credit for my faster times it's just not the case. Yes I am getting better each track day, which I should, otherwise what's the point huh? You guys can talk your torsional stiffness and all your engineering talk you want, but I know what I feel in the car and I did notice a big change with the Matrix brace, and as much as you guys want to deny it, I'm going to push back just as much saying you are dead wrong thinking this brace makes no difference. Guess that's what forums are all about, discussing and expressing our opinions. It appears we are all set in our beliefs here so I'll leave it at that.

 

[Pentalab]

I do have to give you a lot of credit for this.


Norm

Agreed. I can't even begin to fathom doing all the steering with my right hand, while manipulating a combo gas / brake lever with my left hand. I'd be off track by lap 2. It would take a lot of time to get used to.

As far as any version of jacking rails, I'd view it as at least a time saver. Esp when swapping all 4 x tires. Jack it up once in the middle, then stuff a jackstand in at each end..if doing more than swapping tires, like cleaning stuff, or any tweaking, brake work etc. If the increased torsional rigidity results in slightly better handling, that's a bonus.

Steeda has their jacking rails on sale right now, cheap at $118.96 including free shipping. 2" x 1.5" rectangular tubing. https://www.steeda.com/steeda-s197-mustang-jacking-rails.html

On a similar note, has anybody installed the KB matrix brace..and NOT noticed any handling improvement ?

 

[Norm Peterson]

Norm, I thank you for your thinking it's me getting that much better in my driving or more familiar with my car. As much as I'd like to take the credit for my faster times it's just not the case. Yes I am getting better each track day, which I should, otherwise what's the point huh? You guys can talk your torsional stiffness and all your engineering talk you want, but I know what I feel in the car and I did notice a big change with the Matrix brace, and as much as you guys want to deny it, I'm going to push back just as much saying you are dead wrong thinking this brace makes no difference. Guess that's what forums are all about, discussing and expressing our opinions. It appears we are all set in our beliefs here so I'll leave it at that.

I still think you're short-changing yourself.


FWIW, even on a good day, there's going to be some scatter in lap times even if you drop out the laps that clearly involved passing/being passed/being held up/minor driving mistakes/etc. And the conditions that support a two minute flat lap time one day might not be good for any better than 2:01.x the next. Or conditions might be better, and you run a 1:59 or even a 1:58.x.


Norm

 

[JJ427R]

I'd been driving 5-6 years, and I put this in and immediately I have a 2-4 second drop in my times. Now I had 2-4 second drop in times my first few track days, but not that big of an increase the last couple years, I've been trying to break my 2:00 barrier at BIR for a couple years now and have been pretty consistent in my times the last 3-4 years. I'm very aware of difference in temps and track conditions as well. I also know my own personal limits and my car's limits, the car at this point has way more than I can give it, and also realize I don't trailer may car, I have to be able to drive it home at the end of the day, so I'm not nearly as aggressive as I could be with it.

Same thing at Road America, my track times the last 4 years were all pretty consistent, 2:55 is my fastest lap there and that was 2015. I'm pretty consistent around the 3:00 range, but there I have a lot more traffic on track to deal with. 65 cars in my run group as opposed to 20 at BIR. I slow too much to let faster cars pass me when I should just stay on it. But as I stated before, I noticed a big difference going thru the carousel and was about 5mph faster after the brace install. Before the matrix brace I was going 60-65 thru carousel before I'd start pushing my front, after brace I was hitting 70 and could have gone a bit faster but I was on semi-worn tires and was trying to save em a little for the next day. The year previous (2016) I had new tires and was not as fast as 2017 with the brace and worn tires.

Happy New Year everyone!!!

 

[dark steed]

Y’all are making my head hurt. I need bourbon [emoji1634]
Happy New Year


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Pentalab]

Y’all are making my head hurt. I need bourbon [emoji1634]
Happy New Year


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Nope, Y'all need a matrix brace.

 

[Vorshlag-Fair]

To Terry Fair, I would like to see any data you may have that says an X-Brace or Matrix brace will not help the performance of the car, especially in cornering on the track. I completely disagree with your comment on that as I will explain below.

That's not how this works. When outrageous claims (ie: your's) are made THAT person has to provide "proof" of said claim, not the other way around.

I don't see above where I said these items and stiffening up the chassis would give a better ride, I said it would give better cornering, which I truly believe they do, as I have run on the track with and without these items and I do notice a difference. A Matrix Brace will make the car stiffer and actually make the ride a bit rougher, won't give a better ride.

Again, you have zero proof other than one anecdotal point "it feels faster", with the added benefit of "self affirmation of parts purchase" added to your claim.

I cut my lap times at BIR on the 2.5 mile track by 2 seconds in my 2010 Mustang after I added the Matrix brace/Jacking rails and doing nothing else to the car, even same set of tires. Was it my driving improving that much? I doubt it as I drive one handed with hand controls, so I feel quite justified in my own personal data.

I highly doubt that bolting on some doo-dad brace dropped 2 seconds off your lap times. That's EXTREMELY dubious. We would need to see a before/after, same day, double blind test to believe that. Quite a stretch. Driving with hand controls warrants even more skepticism. Not demeaning your driving or any capability issues, just that this is a huge variable.

Two seconds is a massive amount, but to a novice it isn't. You might have 2 second variation from lap to lap, if not more. To a Pro level driver a variance of a couple of tenths between laps is significant amount.

All of this sounds more questionable now, not less.

The OP did say he liked corner carving on mountain roads.... are these necessary for that, absolutely not, but nothing wrong with throwing the options out there and who knows, maybe it will spur him on to become a track rat too....

Nothing wrong with adding useless doo-dads, except they lighten the wallet and add mass to the car. #BallastMyRide

Forgot to mention I don't care much for Kenny Brown Performance's operations, but they do have track time and much info to support their matrix brace for use on the track.

Sorry, their day in the sun was about 2 decades past. These days peddle mostly black magic bolt-on bracing, not real parts backed by science and legitimate testing.

Cheers,

 

[JJ427R]

That's not how this works. When outrageous claims (ie: your's) are made THAT person has to provide "proof" of said claim, not the other way around.

And you or anyone else has not proven to me it doesn't work. We also have not had anyone else come on here who has installed one say that it doesn't work. All I've seen is guys, who like you have never tried one, claim that it won't work, which to me is BS.

All I can say at this point is I'm confident it worked for me, I'm giving my opinion on it just as you are. I don't have to prove anything to anyone but myself.
I'm now calling you out on this and challenging you as a racer/developer to put one on your car and try it, and then come back and prove me wrong. You obviously are best equipped to do this and you try other things I'm sure.... What have you got to loose trying it?
How's this, I triple dog dare you!!!

Also nobody has proved my numbers are not correct. All you guys say is could be other circumstances, I'm not a pro driver or it's me just learning my car, etc.....
Show me some numbers that it does not work. I've given mine that it does...

 

[frank s]

Your "numbers" are incidental observations, rather than scientific measurements.

I'm tempted to suggest "cognitive dissonance" plays a significant part.

 

[Norm Peterson]

Also nobody has proved my numbers are not correct. All you guys say is could be other circumstances, I'm not a pro driver or it's me just learning my car, etc.....

Nobody is arguing the validity of your lap time numbers. Not even that the Matrix bracing isn't somehow involved with their improvement, either. Time to get away from the raw numbers, as they're blinding you to where this discussion needs to go.

What is being questioned (by different people with a variety of experiences and backgrounds to fall back on) is the way you're trying to assign all of the credit to the mechanical side of this particular modification and none to the driver confidence side.

Have you forgotten this part of post #1?

Am I on the right track? What else can I do to improve steering feel and overall confidence?

Norm

 

[ddd4114]

JJ427R didn't make post #1

 

[Pentalab]

This entire .... 'argument' could easily be resolved in a few days this spring. Norm, Vorshlag et all, installs the KB matrix brace, then evaluates it. They both have welding equipment. Then post the detailed results, including pix of install. Heck, I'd even contribute lotsa $$$ to a ...'gofund me' campaign, if they can't afford it. I'm dead serious. Norm would be the #1 prime candidate, since his car has minimal mods to begin with.. and he has driven it on track for years now. This is the only way this will ever get resolved.

 

[Norm Peterson]

JJ427R didn't make post #1

Fair enough, and I don't know how Xenforo managed to cross-link the quoted material (I copied post #1 and edited out everything else).

Fixed the previous post.

It's still germane.


Norm