How do you know/learn to tell when it is driver or suspension settings/design

NDSP

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I know that I still have a long way to go as a driver, partly because I'm too acutely aware of my mortality and the monetary worth of my vehicle. That and I don't want to get told to leave because of too many offs, or kick a gillion cones, etc. So while I'm trying to push my limits as well as the cars to go faster, how do I know when the car pushes or oversteers or insert illhandling thing here if it is because of bad driver input or poor chassis setup. How do I know that to go faster I'm going to need to do xyz. Be it change driver input or set up.

I have learned allot from riding with faster drivers, not so much from having experienced drivers ride with me. Not that I haven't learned something, just not as much.

Is it just a massive live and learn type thing, tinker with things and see how it changes things. Man that could be a slow process.

Anyway here is my latest video from TWS this past weekend. I know I left some time on the track because of lack of balls in the high speed sections.

My setup is: 2012 Brembo GT, bilstien struts/shocks, K springs, whiteline sways F&R, Forgestar F14 18x10s with RS-3 285/35/18s. Motor has a airraid CIA, and hushpower axle back, with a After market tune of unknown origin.

 

BMR Tech

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how do I know when the car pushes or oversteers or insert illhandling thing here if it is because of bad driver input or poor chassis setup. How do I know that to go faster I'm going to need to do xyz. Be it change driver input or set up.

It is learned.

By watching your video, most of it anyhow, I can say that it is difficult to learn without really pushing the car.

When your hands are not fighting the direction of the wheel - you will not be learning what the car wants and needs.

Push it harder - and you will know what you want the car to do, what the car wants - and how the car should be modified.
 

BMR Tech

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I meant to throw this in there.

9:45 to about 10:20 in the video. The majority of that portion of the video, except for (1) corner exit - it looked like you were just taking a stroll through a neighborhood.
 

Ike

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Conventional wisdom is that is the LEAST amount of effort means you're getting the most out of the car. If it looks slow, it's probably fast. So an example would be, the less you had to turn the wheel to make a corner, the better your line was.

A car is set up well when it is predictable. I know I can get into a CR S2000 and pitch it into a corner at 100mph and it make four wheel drift good. Seriously though, if you can go in a little too fast, or out a little too fast, and expect whatever slight under/oversteer or you tuned in, then can also take it out of under/oversteer predictably with throttle or steering you expect, then your setup is good.

Any example is going to be specific, so I like my cars WRC style, to oversteer a bit on entry while I trailbrake, then I get on the throttle slightly before or on apex and it goes neutral or understeer for the exit. This makes it terrifying for most people (most people and manufacturers (except some lotus) go for under in, and over out), because oversteer on entry means you're more likely to lock a rear and do one of those fast spins, but if I get it right, and I usually do, then I can be a hooligan like I want to be, by rotating the car under braking, and pointing more straight on full throttle after the apex you're going to be fast. Again though, it all is dependent on everything. My way is not a clean line, and its hard on the tires, and its great for tight stuff like auto X or hillclimbs, but on a road course I'd just want ever-so-slight understeer all the time, and finally, minimal steering input is pretty much the key to everything I find.

Edit: Some edits.
 
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csamsh

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Lots, and lots, of autocross. Drive like an idiot. 11/10ths. I didn't start to learn the limits of my car until I pushed them too far. Listen to your tires, they will tell you a lot.

Change suspensions settings around. An exercise that has been useful to me is to purposefully put my shocks and/or swaybars on way too hard, or way too soft, just so I know what that feels like, that way I can make changes to suspension, and if the problem isn't corrected, I know the problem is me.

Also, get a lap timer. Driving with the aim solo really helps me know if what I'm doing is working, and is real time feedback to show me that I'm only going fast when it's scary. When it's not scary, when you're not on the brakes in order to not go off track, the times go up and up.
 

NDSP

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I meant to throw this in there.

9:45 to about 10:20 in the video. The majority of that portion of the video, except for (1) corner exit - it looked like you were just taking a stroll through a neighborhood.

Yeah, when I see known fast drivers videos and see them working the wheel because they are on the edge, it makes me release I'm not pushing hard enough. That was my first track excursion with the 2012 and it does indeed drive COMPLETELY different than the 2006. Even with the same suspension under it. But you also here smooth is fast. I was smooth at least, lol.
 

B2B

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Personally, having an experienced instructor ride along is the most effective way to learn to push the car. Once you are past that stage, then it is seat time, seat time, seat time. Each time trying a slightly different line, going in a bit faster, braking a bit harder/later, clipping the apex later, etc.
 

ddavidv

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As an instructor, we only will push a student as far as they feel confident. I had a first timer just this past weekend who did not trust in her car. It was a very good handling, track built older BMW with great tires, but her brain simply wouldn't get her to cross over from "street car on shitty tires" that she was used to. I kept preaching to her "trust your car, it's better than you are right now" but it took awhile for her to edge closer to pushing it.

I think that's the same problem you likely have to some degree. I also advised her to try autocrossing. Not to be a competitor, but to really push her car in a place where spinning out doesn't matter. So you knock down a bunch of cones...so what? They'll pick them up again. Once you learn where traction loss occurs and what it feels like, you can gain confidence, and thus go faster.

Having such a nice (and expensive) new car also factors into it. I would not drive a $30,000 car as hard as I drive my $10,000 race car; I simply can't afford mentally or financially to risk wadding it up, and I would be conservative on the track despite my experience. I'm betting if you had an old Fox 5.0 with a roll cage and nicked up paint you would be pushing a lot harder. Nothing wrong with that; we call it "common sense".
 

todcp

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As an instructor, we only will push a student as far as they feel confident. I had a first timer just this past weekend who did not trust in her car. It was a very good handling, track built older BMW with great tires, but her brain simply wouldn't get her to cross over from "street car on shitty tires" that she was used to. I kept preaching to her "trust your car, it's better than you are right now" but it took awhile for her to edge closer to pushing it.

I think that's the same problem you likely have to some degree. I also advised her to try autocrossing. Not to be a competitor, but to really push her car in a place where spinning out doesn't matter. So you knock down a bunch of cones...so what? They'll pick them up again. Once you learn where traction loss occurs and what it feels like, you can gain confidence, and thus go faster.

Having such a nice (and expensive) new car also factors into it. I would not drive a $30,000 car as hard as I drive my $10,000 race car; I simply can't afford mentally or financially to risk wadding it up, and I would be conservative on the track despite my experience. I'm betting if you had an old Fox 5.0 with a roll cage and nicked up paint you would be pushing a lot harder. Nothing wrong with that; we call it "common sense".

As a former instructor and SCCA racer the above is great advice. To improve critical handling skills I would add that it is very valuable to attend a professional one day school that works on threshold braking and skid pad time. Invaluable to understanding cars limits and how to manage understeer and oversteer in practical terms. I believe BMW and Porsche club events will run classes in these skills as well. Years ago the water soaked skidpad at Skip Barber showed me very quickly how slow and tight my hands were, how badly the car reacted to my poor skills, and then helped me build the skill to be quick and light on the wheel.
 

csamsh

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Wet skidpads are great. I instructed the Tire Rack Street Survival School when I lived in Alabama, this was always an exercise we had the kids do, I think it was one of the best of the drills, if not the best.
 

kcbrown

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It is learned.

By watching your video, most of it anyhow, I can say that it is difficult to learn without really pushing the car.

When your hands are not fighting the direction of the wheel - you will not be learning what the car wants and needs.

Push it harder - and you will know what you want the car to do, what the car wants - and how the car should be modified.

How can you possibly do that without seriously risking destruction of the car?

I know from "experience" with "driving simulators" (fancy name for "games played in conjunction with sort-of-lifelike controls" -- Gran Turismo 6, in this case -- that are still apparently quite good at getting the basic physics right) that if I push the "car" too hard, I go off the track, period, and usually impact a wall to boot. I also know from that same experience that I don't learn the limits of the car until I go past them, which again takes me right off the track. Which is another way of saying that creeping up on the limits doesn't seem to teach me where exactly those limits are -- only exceeding them does. Hence, I see no way to possibly learn the real limits of the car in a track environment without incurring major risk of destroying it (as in, it's essentially an inevitability).

Additionally, I've "learned" that knowing the car isn't enough -- you have to really know the track, and it is the track + car combination that determines what you can do, when, and how. As a result, I've never been able to learn how to drive even a "virtual car" that I'm intimately familiar with anywhere close to the limit on an unfamiliar track without going well over it and going off track as a result.

That experience has made me deathly afraid of pushing the car too hard and is, frankly, why I expect to never go out on a real track by myself for a very, very long time (years, likely).


Autocross may be a reasonable alternative for some of that, and I expect to find out at the Evolution school at Marina Airport in July, but I see no way of addressing the issue of learning the car's limits on any given specific track without incurring the major risk of destroying the car.
 
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5.0 Probie

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Additionally, I've "learned" that knowing the car isn't enough -- you have to really know the track, and it is the track + car combination that determines what you can do, when, and how. .

Just food for thought...

I could not disagree with your comment more. Knowing your car allows you to adapt to road conditions. Yes, sure... If you know a track you can adjust how you work the car. And yes, knowing both makes a huge difference for "That" track.

But in real life one must know the limits of the vehicle before any track. Once you know the limits... Track time drop WAY faster as you know the car, learn the nuances of a track, and have a blast.

My $.02...

The true value in "Driving" any vehicle is when one "Knows" how the car will react and gives the car input in preparation for that reaction while adjusting automatically without thought.

Autocross sounds like the best solution for you. And I agree with what others have said above, the skid pad helps more than one would think. And this might get me in trouble with a few here... But I deliberately, once a year go remind myself what "Loss of traction" is like to re-ground myself. It really does make a person "Feel" the car at a much faster rate than driving around cones ever will.

You are asking the right questions, you have the correct amount of concern, and will learn a lot because of how you are approaching your concerns. :highfive:
 

SoundGuyDave

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OP: First, become a consistent driver! That way, you can accurately judge whether the "ills" in a car's handling are your fault or that of the setup/hardware. If the problems lie with the car, they will be absolutely consistent. If the balance is set towards understeer, for example, you will find that the car understeers every time you perform a specific action, because you can eliminate the driver as a variable. If the car always pushes on entry, it's setup. If it pushes some of the time, and it's loose some of the time, then it's a driver issue with technique or inconsistent speeds or cornering points.

KC and I have been around a couple of times on the "simulator" thing, and at our level, I will maintain that there just isn't a good simulator available. GT6/NFS/iRacing/etc. are really only good enough to generally learn a track layout and start refining a few cornering points here and there. iRacing is about as close as I've found to the real thing, but even there there are "reality" issues, particularly when it comes to recovery dynamics. With the FR500 model, at least when I was using the sim, if you got into a mid-corner push condition, letting off the throttle led to understeer, which just ain't the way it happens in the real world. Also, if you did happen to go 4-off, the grass behaved as if it were freshly rained-upon and on a VERY cold day. Ice mode. In the real world, you CAN recover from a 4-off event.

The real secret to becoming consistent and pushing the car is to A) refine your techniques with the controls, B) focus on consistent cornering points and speeds, and C) approach the limits incrementally. DO NOT assume that because the car was fine in a particular corner at 40mph, that it'll also be fine at 80mph.

First, stay off race rubber. Use the noise a street tire makes at the limit as a guide. Keep increasing your entry speed (and therefore your mid-corner and exit speeds) unit you hear a thin squeal from the tires all the way from turn-in through apex. Now, practice hitting that corner the same way every time, until you get that thin squeal consistently. NOW add one or two mph to your entry speed and see what happens. If that thin squeal becomes a healthy "singing," great. If it starts to "howl," and you'll know the difference, trust me, note what the car's response to that noise is. Right there, the transition from "singing" to "howling" is where you have crossed the limit from completely in control (100% grip or less) to slightly out of control (trying to exceed 100% grip), and the line WILL suffer. If the car is biased towards understeer, you'll start pushing wide of apex. That means that you'll have to delay throttle-on during the exit phase until the car is back on line after apex. If the car is biased towards oversteer, the rear end will start to stick out, and you'll have to snap-correct to get the car back in shape, and that means you'll have to delay throttle-on during the exit phase until the car is back on line after apex. In neither case, assuming you went for just a little more than the car could give you, does it mean that you're going to go off, hit a concrete wall, flip, burst into flames, etc. It just means that you've botched that particular corner. THAT is what you get from incremental changes. Depending on how often you run, how diligent you are about going out with a plan and executing it, and your natural talent levels, it may take a few weekends, a year, or more before you can become reasonably consistent as a driver.

Let's take a look at how to develop braking points for a moment. Pick a brake marker, threshold brake (wait to see Jesus, then throw out the anchor, per DILYSI), then analyize your entry speed based on that braking point. To increase entry speed, move your braking point closer to the corner. At SOME point, you're just going to over-reach, and go in too hot. Does that mean that you have just wadded up your car? No. That means that you have to throw away that corner, and recover. Assuming a standard 90* right-hander, and assuming a turn-in point for a late-apex line right at the "1" marker (fairly typical), your decision point comes right about 150' or so from the corner. That is your "go/no-go" point. Assuming you make the "no-go" decision, you must recover. Remember that at your decision point, you're hard on the brakes... The simple way to recover is to just STAY on the brakes. You have a full 150' of braking room before you even get to the corner, plus up to 40' of track width to work with as wall. You can shed a LOT of speed in 190', particularly if you're already on the brakes and the chassis is "set!" If you've been working up speeds incrementally, you are at worst case, MAYBE 10mph too fast to turn-in successfully at the "1" marker. It won't take but a few (20?) feet to shed those extra 10mph, but you'll want more than that since you can no longer hit the ideal line. Let's just say that sanity suggests you need to shed a whole bunch of speed, so stay on the brakes all the way to the point where the track begins to curl to the right, at the "0" marker. Last weekend, during a planned exercise, my student discovered that her 4000lb Camaro, on street tires, took roughly 350' to go from 100mph to a dead stop. We ALL know that the Mustangs can out-brake a 5th-Gen Camaro, so call that a worst-case scenario. At a minimum, you'll be able to shed AT LEAST 35mph of speed by staying on the brakes for that extra 140'. If we assume a maximum corner-entry speed of 65mph for our theoretical right-hander, and assuming you came in 10mph too hot (which is a LOT!), then at the point where the track starts to curl in, you'll be doing a sedate 40mph, and should be able to run the outside edge of the corner (wide radius) without issue. Yes, the corner is blown, yes, your exit will suffer, but the car is still shiny, clean, and on all four tires.

This is the real difference between the simulators and the real world, where you have pushed the envelope too hard. Sims just kind of give up and you crash, but in the real world there are a lot of opportunities for a "save." But, to save it, you have to be within a performance envelope where the car CAN be saved, and that means a 5-10% margin of error, NOT overshooting by 50%! That's where incremental "pushing" comes in.
 

STEVE_POE

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I can tell you this . the cheapest way to become a better driver is seat time . after that buy yourself a very good data logger like a aim mxl. hire yourself a driver coach for a weekend and learn to read data from him driving and you driving.. you will find seconds on a lap and never change a thing on a car ..... I see so many people just spend countless dollars on shit for there car with no clue how it really works or what effect it has...... I call it the monkey see monkey do syndrome :)
 

csamsh

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How can you possibly do that without seriously risking destruction of the car?

Unfortunately, putting a car on track is dangerous, and there's nothing anybody can do about it.

Nice post Dave...that needs to be a sticky
 

sheizasosay

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I can tell you this . the cheapest way to become a better driver is seat time . after that buy yourself a very good data logger like a aim mxl. hire yourself a driver coach for a weekend and learn to read data from him driving and you driving.. you will find seconds on a lap and never change a thing on a car ..... I see so many people just spend countless dollars on shit for there car with no clue how it really works or what effect it has...... I call it the monkey see monkey do syndrome :)

You ever do any coaching or are you tied up in racing all the time?
 

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