Melling M340HV oil pump thoughts?

skwerl

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The absolute easiest way to replace the lifters and followers is when you have the timing chains off. You can unbolt the cams, replace the lifters and followers, then lay the cams back on top and slowly work them down into position by tightening the cam caps a little at a time. No fuss, no fighting. Mark your cam caps for position and orientation so they go back exactly where they came off.
 

SVT Rider

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However, is there a way I can do it without removing the cams? It might take forever but that way all I'd need to do is pick em out one at a time right? I wouldn't need new phaser bolts or to remove anything.
You can compress the springs and carefully remove the followers by using a valve spring compressor. I have used the OTC 6684 compressor on mine. Be careful you don't loose a keeper while the spring is compressed, less you drop a valve into the cylinder.
 

Midlife Crises

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You can compress the springs and carefully remove the followers by using a valve spring compressor. I have used the OTC 6684 compressor on mine. Be careful you don't loose a keeper while the spring is compressed, less you drop a valve into the cylinder.
Dropped a keeper yesterday trying to change springs. Now I’m pulling the heads and oil pan. Ain’t this fun!
 

Adomis63

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I almost wonder which method is riskier at this point. Doing something tedious 24 times definitely leaves some opportunity for error..
 

Midlife Crises

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I almost wonder which method is riskier at this point. Doing something tedious 24 times definitely leaves some opportunity for error..
The followers are pretty easy to remove and install. Changing valve springs is a different story. Unbolting the cam journals a little at a time like skwerl said works well.
 

Adomis63

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Just a small update on this, I want to thank you all for convincing me to replace the followers... half of them on the drivers' side had play in the rollers. Lash adjusters were all rock hard - though I replaced them anyway since they came in the kit. I didn't pump them full of oil until they were all super stiff but just a few bumps to get the air outta them. They all stiffened up to some degree.

My question now is do I prime the engine before I start it up? (which is still some weeks away at the point but eventually it'll be time) If so, is pulling the crank sensor and running the starter a good way to build enough oil pressure to do this?
 

SVT Rider

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One way I prime the engine after it has been sitting for a long while is hold the accelerator pedal to the floor and then crank the engine. No spark and the engine will turn over.

Do it for 6-7 second bursts with a pause between 2-3 reps. The thing to be wary of here is to not overheat the starter motor, but it easier to replace and is better that than the engine wear without oil.
 

skwerl

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One way I prime the engine after it has been sitting for a long while is hold the accelerator pedal to the floor and then crank the engine. No spark and the engine will turn over.

Do it for 6-7 second bursts with a pause between 2-3 reps. The thing to be wary of here is to not overheat the starter motor, but it easier to replace and is better that than the engine wear without oil.
Beat me to it. I had forgotten about this method and did it the hard way by unplugging the coils and fuel injectors. I felt like an idiot when I found out I could have done the same thing just by holding the gas pedal to the floor.
 

Dino Dino Bambino

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Beat me to it. I had forgotten about this method and did it the hard way by unplugging the coils and fuel injectors. I felt like an idiot when I found out I could have done the same thing just by holding the gas pedal to the floor.

Wouldn't it be much easier to just unplug the fuel pump relay? The engine would still crank but with no fuel, it won't fire.
 

SVT Rider

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Wouldn't it be much easier to just unplug the fuel pump relay? The engine would still crank but with no fuel, it won't fire.
Another valid option. The amount of ease is a matter of preference. The SJB isn't exactly easy to access, open, and pull the fuse from...maybe I'm just getting old.
 

Rick Simons

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Welp, I have a confession. I put all the timing junk back together today, phasers and everything. After fighting with the decision of having to spend the money on new followers in addition to looking at the 10-day forecast and determining I have plenty of time... I think I'll replace them. However, is there a way I can do it without removing the cams? It might take forever but that way all I'd need to do is pick em out one at a time right? I wouldn't need new phaser bolts or to remove anything.

I understand this may not be the best option, but I also figure the less I disturb the less I can screw up lol.

I'm starting to question if this is even the original motor with how exceptionally clean it is inside.

Again, thank you all for your input. I really appreciate it.

Yes, you can replace them without removing the cams. It's a little tedious, but not overly difficult. Pretty much everything you need to know is here:
 

Adomis63

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It's about that time to fire it up and see what I screwed up. I did some searching and people seem to advocate for priming the motor with a garden sprayer to pressurize the chain tensioners and lash adjusters on a new engine build. While this is not an engine rebuild, I did replace the chain tensioners. Is it safe to prime this engine by just cranking it and NOT allowing it to fire, like we've discussed - or is the consensus that the garden sprayer is necessary? I did oil up the new oil pump gears when I installed it, but essentially it has been 3 months since the motor was last ran so I'm sure any oil that was laying about has mostly settled into the pan.
 

Midlife Crises

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After the work you have done I would just push the gas pedal to the floor and crank the engine a few seconds to see the oil gauge move.
 

Bigearl

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I had an issue happen on my engine that lends some truth to what you've posted when I had an intake valve cam follower break in 2 unknowingly (had no physical indication) on #7 cyl which unloaded the lash adjuster plunger so the adjuster had no oil control thus sprayed a continuous stream of oil which dropped system oil pressure just enough that it slowed up VCT response at low engine RPM's where the oil volume\pressure output from oil pump is the lowest but not hurt the rest of the engine......this difference was captured on a subsequent dyno datalog & noted when comparing VCT operation to the dyno datalog data run prior trying to figure out why we lost 16 HP\12 TQ (follower broke in between sessions so was chasing a "misfire" on #7 cyl thru Mode 6 data but all physical data kept coming back negative for actual misfire on same cyl. Found broke #7 intake cam follower while changing out both VCT solenoids as 1st remedy to issue....also found some metal trash from oil filter center tube hole punchout lodged in lower VCT solenoid oil port on B2 head causing oil flow restriction thru lower VCT solenoid screen--1st part of engine to get oil flow from oil pump filter is B2 cyl head. Found out about the new design cam followers from a FordTechMakuloco video & discovered my local Ford dealership had em in stock at the time so I replaced all of them w\ the new design I posted about earlier). Put back on dyno afterwards....all low end HP\TQ curves lined back up so all lost low end HP\TQ was recovered & also gained mid\top end HP\TQ in the process so no other engine work was needed.....was headed to do a full timing job w\ oil pump upgrade if this didn't fix verified lost VCT operation\response) so it doesn't take much oil volume\pressure loss to noticeably impact VCT operation\response. Oil pressure\volume delivery is the only thing that is maintaining stable & accurate engine cam timing thru VCT solenoids\cam phasers operations & chain tensioner operation.....engine HP\TQ output will follow VCT stability\response--I've seen it 1st hand.

So if you really want to help out 3V VCT system response don't forget to upgrade these cam roller followers as well as pull the VCT solenoids to at least check all cyl head VCT oil passages for trash as well as the little oil screens that are installed in cyl head beside the VCT solenoids (didn't know about these until finding out much later after I had all this buttoned back up) while you're in there.......
You are really clued up on this motor Glasstop. I wonder if you have any thoughts on a 2007 Mustang issue I have as follows: I bought this engine from a wrecked GT with only 70k miles on it which was stripped from the wreck and stored for several years as the owner planned to do an engine swap, never happened. I have just bought the motor to use in a Factory Five Racing Cobra replica and have started dismantling it and have the cam/valve covers off and the front timing chain cover off. The oil was pretty dirty, but the timing chain tensions, plastic guides etc are all in one piece. the phasers seem solid and line up correctly. Bank 1 cam and followers all look good while Bank 2 has sludge sticking to the cam cover and generally looks dirty compared with bank 1. Also the cam lobes are slightly pitted and at least one of the followers that I removed was also a bit pitted on the roller. Roller bearings are good but all the cam lobes show wear/pitting on bank 2. It is not severe but bank 1 is not affected. As you stated Bank 2 should be better lubed than 1 so I am wondering what the issue is.
Could bank 2 be running hotter for some reason?
Could bank 2 be a bit starved for oil for some reason?
Could there be a valve guide problem in that head?
I am planning to do a leak down test shortly to get some assessment of the condition but I am trying to understand the issue and not just replace everything. I plan to replace the oil pump with a HV Melling and the cam followers with the new style along with a new kit for the timing chains.
Any suggestions or guidance would be appreciated.
 

GlassTop09

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You are really clued up on this motor Glasstop. I wonder if you have any thoughts on a 2007 Mustang issue I have as follows: I bought this engine from a wrecked GT with only 70k miles on it which was stripped from the wreck and stored for several years as the owner planned to do an engine swap, never happened. I have just bought the motor to use in a Factory Five Racing Cobra replica and have started dismantling it and have the cam/valve covers off and the front timing chain cover off. The oil was pretty dirty, but the timing chain tensions, plastic guides etc are all in one piece. the phasers seem solid and line up correctly. Bank 1 cam and followers all look good while Bank 2 has sludge sticking to the cam cover and generally looks dirty compared with bank 1. Also the cam lobes are slightly pitted and at least one of the followers that I removed was also a bit pitted on the roller. Roller bearings are good but all the cam lobes show wear/pitting on bank 2. It is not severe but bank 1 is not affected. As you stated Bank 2 should be better lubed than 1 so I am wondering what the issue is.
Could bank 2 be running hotter for some reason?
Could bank 2 be a bit starved for oil for some reason?
Could there be a valve guide problem in that head?
I am planning to do a leak down test shortly to get some assessment of the condition but I am trying to understand the issue and not just replace everything. I plan to replace the oil pump with a HV Melling and the cam followers with the new style along with a new kit for the timing chains.
Any suggestions or guidance would be appreciated.
Hi Bigearl!

What you're seeing is most likely a symptom of a lack of timely maintenance concerning oil changeouts or use of a poorer grade of engine oil or a combination of both......not so much 1 bank is running slightly hotter than the other (even though this can also be true due to several factors causing 1 bank to flow more airmass thru it--thus heat up more--than the other, but is also a normal occurrence w\ a V-engine design anyway--especially w\ 1 that is using 2 camshafts w\ VCT cam phasing capability--so isn't usually a factor).

This engine's PCV system design is what sets up what you're seeing. Fresh clean air from CAI downstream of the MAF section but just in front of the TB is drawn into the B1 valve cover which then flows thru B1 CH oil drain passages\front timing cover area (this is why B1 side usually looks clean....) thru CC area mixing w\ the cyl blowby gasses from pistons\cyls, then back up into B2 side thru B2 CH oil drain passages\front timing cover area then enters the PCV baffle entrance at back of B2 valve cover at #8 cyl (this is why this side is usually a different shade of darker "color" than B1 side) then thru PCV valve then out of B2 valve cover into IM after TB (intake manifold vacuum created by deltaP across TB is what creates the PCV airflow movement). This air flow thru B2 is also much hotter than the air flow through B1 which will also lend to varnish\sludge formation in B2 side vs B1 side as well.

In OEM trim, these engines are designed to run on the warm side for emissions\CAFE stds purposes (low to mid 2xx*F range) which can put some load on engine oil to hold up w\o breakdown......thus why timely service maintenance & a good quality engine oil is a necessity to prevent what you're seeing in this Ford Modular 4.6L V8 engine of yours.

If good quality engine oil (at least the OEM Ford 5W-20 "blend" but 5W-20 full synthetic is better.......or IMHO 5W-30 full synthetic is all around best) & proper maintenance scheduled service changeouts are maintained, you should never see any signs of sludge depositing anywhere in B2 side period.....you might see some slight decolorization in B2 vs B1 due to varnish deposits forming but even this should be slight if good quality oil was used & strict maintenance changeout schedules are kept up. You also should NEVER see ANY type of metal pitting\fatigue either.......this is a good indicator of lack of oil changeout servicing as for metal pitting to occur, the blowby infused oil sludge is caustic which means that the oil had already started breaking down & mixed w\ some raw fuel along w\ moisture from the fresh air created an acidic mix that started attacking the ferrous (iron-containing) components......the several yrs this engine was in storage w\ this inside didn't help as well.

So just check everything over closely to determine if something can be safely reused or needs replacing. Those CH's & engine block could use a good cleaning in a chemical bath & properly blown out to ensure that all of the sludge\varnish is removed & all passages are fully clean & open.

You'll have to decide in the end as to what is acceptable or not to reuse\replace.........your dime, not mine.

Hope this helps.

PS-- Here are some pictures of my engine's CH's w\ valve covers removed for reference:
IMG_0167.JPG IMG_0171.JPG
On the left is B1, on the right is B2. If a good quality engine oil is used along w\ proper, timely oil changeout servicing is done......what you see here is what you should see.....note B2 CH is almost as clean as B1 CH.....this engine had 152,800+ mi on her at the time of these pictures (taken when I was changing out the VCT solenoids & I found the broken cam follower on intake valve on #7 cyl in B2)...........

FYI.................
 
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Bigearl

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Hi Bigearl!

What you're seeing is most likely a symptom of a lack of timely maintenance concerning oil changeouts or use of a poorer grade of engine oil or a combination of both......not so much 1 bank is running slightly hotter than the other (even though this can also be true due to several factors causing 1 bank to flow more airmass thru it--thus heat up more--than the other, but is also a normal occurrence w\ a V-engine design anyway--especially w\ 1 that is using 2 camshafts w\ VCT cam phasing capability--so isn't usually a factor).

This engine's PCV system design is what sets up what you're seeing. Fresh clean air from CAI downstream of the MAF section but just in front of the TB is drawn into the B1 valve cover which then flows thru B1 CH oil drain passages\front timing cover area (this is why B1 side usually looks clean....) thru CC area mixing w\ the cyl blowby gasses from pistons\cyls, then back up into B2 side thru B2 CH oil drain passages\front timing cover area then enters the PCV baffle entrance at back of B2 valve cover at #8 cyl (this is why this side is usually a different shade of darker "color" than B1 side) then thru PCV valve then out of B2 valve cover into IM after TB (intake manifold vacuum created by deltaP across TB is what creates the PCV airflow movement). This air flow thru B2 is also much hotter than the air flow through B1 which will also lend to varnish\sludge formation in B2 side vs B1 side as well.

In OEM trim, these engines are designed to run on the warm side for emissions\CAFE stds purposes (low to mid 2xx*F range) which can put some load on engine oil to hold up w\o breakdown......thus why timely service maintenance & a good quality engine oil is a necessity to prevent what you're seeing in this Ford Modular 4.6L V8 engine of yours.

If good quality engine oil (at least the OEM Ford 5W-20 "blend" but 5W-20 full synthetic is better.......or IMHO 5W-30 full synthetic is all around best) & proper maintenance scheduled service changeouts are maintained, you should never see any signs of sludge depositing anywhere in B2 side period.....you might see some slight decolorization in B2 vs B1 due to varnish deposits forming but even this should be slight if good quality oil was used & strict maintenance changeout schedules are kept up. You also should NEVER see ANY type of metal pitting\fatigue either.......this is a good indicator of lack of oil changeout servicing as for metal pitting to occur, the blowby infused oil sludge is caustic which means that the oil had already started breaking down & mixed w\ some raw fuel along w\ moisture from the fresh air created an acidic mix that started attacking the ferrous (iron-containing) components......the several yrs this engine was in storage w\ this inside didn't help as well.

So just check everything over closely to determine if something can be safely reused or needs replacing. Those CH's & engine block could use a good cleaning in a chemical bath & properly blown out to ensure that all of the sludge\varnish is removed & all passages are fully clean & open.

You'll have to decide in the end as to what is acceptable or not to reuse\replace.........your dime, not mine.

Hope this helps.

PS-- Here are some pictures of my engine's CH's w\ valve covers removed for reference:
View attachment 88452 View attachment 88453
On the left is B1, on the right is B2. If a good quality engine oil is used along w\ proper, timely oil changeout servicing is done......what you see here is what you should see.....note B2 CH is almost as clean as B1 CH.....this engine had 152,800+ mi on her at the time of these pictures (taken when I was changing out the VCT solenoids & I found the broken cam follower on intake valve on #7 cyl in B2)...........

FYI.................
 

Bigearl

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20230725_152308.jpg 20230725_152602.jpg Thanks for your response GlassTop, after I asked my question I found your post of Sept 2019 regarding the PCV valve issues with this engine. After some thought about this I believe you are exactly correct on the mechanism of pitting corrosion of the cam lobes and follower rollers. The neglect of oil changing also along with air/oil/engine gasses flow explains the sludge in bank 2.
I plan to clean the motor as much as I can while it is on the engine stand, replace the oil pump with a Melling M340 HV, change the tensioners and guides although they are in good shape. Also I am going to pull all the roller followers and replace them.
I have attached a photo the cam cover from B2 and I tried for a close up of the lobes for cylinder 8 which appear to be the worst. I had popped the two inlet followers to examine them, one had slight pitting and the other was ok. the photo also shows the sludge on the cam cap bolts.
Again thanks for your help.
 

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