Most you have run on your stock TR3650?

[raredesign]

I am hoping for close to 800rwhp during this winter's build, but I have my stock tranny with 47k miles on it. Never dragged or anything, and I just plan on being a high hp street and show car.

I've been eyeballing TR6060's such as http://www.ebay.com/itm/Tremec-TR-6...-GT-/161834011303?hash=item25ae0f0aa7&vxp=mtr

but read a post where someone got one for only $600! I don't know much about them and if it is a simple swap for an s197, or if I will need a bunch more parts.

Anyway, I am wondering if I could just stay with the TR3650 for now since I already went through most of my cash, and only have enough right now for the internals (assembly, cams, phase lock, bolts, etc).

I found a nice post about What Will Break
http://www.hotrod.com/how-to/additional-how-to/hrdp-1104-what-breaks-in-2005-2011-ford-mustang/

...but there is no finite claim of breakage for the TR3650 at a specific torque level.

Sure there are plenty of posts, but feedback seems to range from 350 torque to "I haven't broken mine yet, and I'm running 700+".

I will have my wife and kid with me in the car, and while I don't drive like an animal, 700+ to hopefully 800rwhp is quite a bit, and I am not sure if relying on tire slip is going to save a weak point in the tranny.

What are your thoughts, and numbers you have run on yours until failure...or not failing hopefully?

 

[stkjock]

if you drive it hard with near 800 HP on a 3650 IT WILL NOT LIVE. If you drive it like an old lady it will live. You will not find a fixed number on where it will break, there are too many variables, IIRC Tremec specs the 3650 to 350 ft/lbs.... so you cannot reasonably expect it to live at the levels you're talkings

the 6060 is a very good upgrade for that power level. Search the site there are many threads on the swap.

 

[BruceH]

There have been quite a few broken 3650 transmissions over the years. Most break right around 525rwhp on a good launch. One way to save your transmission is to always drive on street tires and keep the stock clutch. They will be your fuse that will go before the transmission will.

It's not just the input shaft that goes. A friend of mine had been running over 650 and not having any issues until he put real slicks on and ripped off a 9.99. He was booted from the track and on his way home third gear went. Others have had third take a crap.

My 3650 survived drag radial launches with about 515rhwp. I can't remember how many but I can remember that the clutch was a RST and it didn't slip.

 

[BruceH]

One more thing about the 6060. It's a far better transmission. The gears are stronger, so is the input shaft. It also shifts much better than the 3650. It's a big difference. People like to dis the remote shifter as part of why the 3650 doesn't shift smooth but it's hard for me to believe that anymore based on how well the 6060 shifts with a remote shifter.

Doing the swap is as easy as changing a clutch. It's one of the best mods you can do to a s197.

 

[raredesign]

One more thing about the 6060. It's a far better transmission. The gears are stronger, so is the input shaft. It also shifts much better than the 3650. It's a big difference. People like to dis the remote shifter as part of why the 3650 doesn't shift smooth but it's hard for me to believe that anymore based on how well the 6060 shifts with a remote shifter.

Doing the swap is as easy as changing a clutch. It's one of the best mods you can do to a s197.

I really appreciate the information.

From what I read, it is a 26 spline, requiring a different clutch, GT500 Crossmember, driveshaf, shifter, shifter retaining pins, and does it need a different bell housing cover?

I haven't put the RST clutch in yet, so maybe AmericanMuscle will let me swap. It would be nice if I could find a used TR6060 for less than the $1800 I see on EBay.

I don't plan to go to the track yet as I am still on stock wheels, so maybe I will just ride it out on the 3650 for now. I expect it will break loose before straining the tranny, no?

 

[BruceH]

I really appreciate the information.

From what I read, it is a 26 spline, requiring a different clutch, GT500 Crossmember, driveshaf, shifter, shifter retaining pins, and does it need a different bell housing cover?

I haven't put the RST clutch in yet, so maybe AmericanMuscle will let me swap. It would be nice if I could find a used TR6060 for less than the $1800 I see on EBay.

I don't plan to go to the track yet as I am still on stock wheels, so maybe I will just ride it out on the 3650 for now. I expect it will break loose before straining the tranny, no?

The bellhousing is an integral part of the transmission so it comes with it. McLeod will change out the 10 spline hubs to 26 spline. IIRC it's about $25 per disk. You can also just buy new disks.

I paid too much for mine from a former vendor on here. All he did was have it shipped from LaPointe and pocket the difference. Even though I paid $2200 it was still worth it. It is that much better of a transmission.

Stay away from a 2007 version. It might be ok but it might have the oversized input shaft that would hang the clutch up during fast shifts. The 2007-8 have a 5th and 6th gear of .80 and .63. The 2009+ have .74 and .50. Mine is a 2008 version. I'm running it with 4.10 rear gears and it's about perfect.

 

[JeremyH]

I ran 600-650rwtq through my 3650 and I beat the crap out of it, I put 45k miles on it altogether 20k boosted, still worked great when I pulled it to upgrade to the 6060. I'm sure I was on borrowed time though. And that said the 6060 is much better trans from the get go.

 

[raredesign]

McLeod will change out the 10 spline hubs to 26 spline. IIRC it's about $25 per disk. You can also just buy new disks.

Excellent news! That will save me quite a few bucks!

I paid too much for mine from a former vendor on here. All he did was have it shipped from LaPointe and pocket the difference. Even though I paid $2200 it was still worth it. It is that much better of a transmission.

So aside from the transmission and clutch discs, I would just need to replace the driveshaft? I have an MGW shifter, but not sure if I would have to get a new one, or if it fits.

I ran 600-650rwtq through my 3650 and I beat the crap out of it, I put 45k miles on it altogether 20k boosted, still worked great when I pulled it to upgrade to the 6060. I'm sure I was on borrowed time though. And that said the 6060 is much better trans from the get go.

I am seriously itching to get this transmission, but may see how the 3650 does first, and upgrade later. Thank you both for the info.

 

[BruceH]

Excellent news! That will save me quite a few bucks!



So aside from the transmission and clutch discs, I would just need to replace the driveshaft? I have an MGW shifter, but not sure if I would have to get a new one, or if it fits.



I am seriously itching to get this transmission, but may see how the 3650 does first, and upgrade later. Thank you both for the info.

It takes a different shifter. You will probably need a different ds. I had a dynotech and it worked just fine with the 3650 or 6060. I'm currently running a take off GT500 ds. It's nice and quiet. IIRC it was about $125 shipped. The only sucky part about it is that it takes a dual safety loop.

 

[Timmbo]

I have been running 726 rwhp on mine a year and a half now with no issues. I'm running 325/45/17 M&H drag radials too. I'm sure it would explode in a million pieces if I tried to launch the car on a sticky track though. I don't plan on doing that until I get the desire to upgrade the transmission. I think you'll be fine if you just keep your car off the track with that 3650.

 

[raredesign]

Sorry to resurrect this a few months later, but I don't think I should create a separate thread for the same concern.

I paid too much for mine from a former vendor on here. All he did was have it shipped from LaPointe and pocket the difference. Even though I paid $2200 it was still worth it. It is that much better of a transmission.

Thanks for that info. I looked around and called around, but why does it seem like places are selling a kit to fit the s197 for ~$4000? That is way too much for me to spend on a transmission. I don't know who LaPointe is, so if you can provide a reference that would help me find the TR6060 for around the price you paid, that would be much appreciated.

I have been running 726 rwhp on mine a year and a half now with no issues. I'm running 325/45/17 M&H drag radials too. I'm sure it would explode in a million pieces if I tried to launch the car on a sticky track though. I don't plan on doing that until I get the desire to upgrade the transmission. I think you'll be fine if you just keep your car off the track with that 3650.

That's awesome, Timmbo. I was worried about the transmission crapping out on the dyno, so if I use the boost controller to drive around on lower psi and only boost higher periodically, maybe I can extend the life of the tranny. I actually plan on getting the M&H 275/45/18's as well. Sounds like things are lining up, and after I save up some more, I'll do the transmission, driveshaft, axels, differential, and suspension. At that point, it will be a near entirely new car lol. I hope this wins some shows

 

[BruceH]

Do an internet search for LaPointe Auto Recyclers.

 

[raredesign]

Do an internet search for LaPointe Auto Recyclers.

I assume they changed their name and are now http://www.lapointauto.com.

Since they are a salvage yard, are you saying a 2008-2009 TR6060 will fit right in? I thought there was some sort of conversion necessary because of the kits that are sold with bell housing covers, and some other parts. If it is a direct drop in, I could just grab a rebuilt one like this for $2k:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/07-08-09-10...TR6060-6SPD-MANUAL-TRANSMISSION-/121818437749

I'd have to check with the seller if it is a 2008 or 2009, since it is generically listed as covering all years.

I am not ready to drop the cash on the tranny and supporting parts, so I'll just keep this in the back pocket until the time comes.

If you did pick up a salvaged one, what did you do to fit it in?

 

[BruceH]

I have a thread on it. It bolts right up. You need a 26 spline clutch, shifter, shifter hardware, drive shaft, and transmission mount.

The 5.4 and 4.6 blocks have the same pattern for a bellhousing, no adapter needed.

You could do some research instead of trusting the outfit trying to sell you $4k+ in stuff you don't really need.

http://www.s197forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=38606&highlight=3650

 

[raredesign]

I have a thread on it. It bolts right up. You need a 26 spline clutch, shifter, shifter hardware, drive shaft, and transmission mount.

The 5.4 and 4.6 blocks have the same pattern for a bellhousing, no adapter needed.

You could do some research instead of trusting the outfit trying to sell you $4k+ in stuff you don't really need.

http://www.s197forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=38606&highlight=3650

Thanks. Great post on your swap. I had looked for something like that here, but I guess I don't know how to get the search results to work right as there is a ton of unrelated stuff. Even searching "3650 to 6060 swap done" yields nothing, but I digress. Thanks for the link.

 

[TheKurgan]

My biggest complaint with the 3650 is shifting into third. It just can't be done above 6000 rpms. I have taken the advice of some here and just ordered the prothane shifter bushings and I hope that helps. I'm just trying to keep it alive until I can get a T-56.

 

[raredesign]

I just spoke with someone at Rockland Standard Gear Inc. http://rsgear.com, and I appreciate their honesty as he could have easily said the TR3650 is crap, just like other transmission shops have told me. Nevertheless, taking it on good reputation, as I have heard from performance shops that RSGear is one of the best, he confirmed what many here have said in that the TR3650 is actually a very good transmission, but it simply has poor synchro's, so hard shifting will quickly burn it out. As long as you shift like a grandma, it should hold the power. I asked about the 10 spline sheering, and he explained that the issue with the splines is usually in the tolerance of how they fit, such as if you put an incorrect size socket on a bolt and sheer off the edges. As long as it fits nice and snug, you'll be alright. That makes a lot of sense, and is the same reason I have some 12 point sockets.

I will likely do as BruceH did and pick up a re-manufactured TR6060 for a good price, but I am waiting to see the difference in price from RSGear for the added carbon fiber synchro rings.
http://rsgear.com/products/transmissions/tremec-t56.aspx

Cheers!

 

[BruceH]

I just spoke with someone at Rockland Standard Gear Inc. http://rsgear.com, and I appreciate their honesty as he could have easily said the TR3650 is crap, just like other transmission shops have told me. Nevertheless, taking it on good reputation, as I have heard from performance shops that RSGear is one of the best, he confirmed what many here have said in that the TR3650 is actually a very good transmission, but it simply has poor synchro's, so hard shifting will quickly burn it out. As long as you shift like a grandma, it should hold the power. I asked about the 10 spline sheering, and he explained that the issue with the splines is usually in the tolerance of how they fit, such as if you put an incorrect size socket on a bolt and sheer off the edges. As long as it fits nice and snug, you'll be alright. That makes a lot of sense, and is the same reason I have some 12 point sockets.

I will likely do as BruceH did and pick up a re-manufactured TR6060 for a good price, but I am waiting to see the difference in price from RSGear for the added carbon fiber synchro rings.
http://rsgear.com/products/transmissions/tremec-t56.aspx

Cheers!

My moment of clarity was talking to Liberty Gear. They do a lot of Tremec work. My original intention was to send a 3650 to them so they could change the input shaft and syncros.

Liberty asked me a few questions and said they would be happy to have my business but that they would only recommend the input shaft, forks, and some syncros to be changed. When I asked why they said the next weak link is the small gears in a 3650. Point blank they told me that it made no sense to invest money in polishing and treating the gears because they would break at just a little over what the input shaft breaks at. They also told me how much better the 6060 is and they were right. Bigger gears, better syncros, stout input shaft. I'm not aware of anyone who has broken a gear or input shaft with a 6060.

Liberty lost a sale with their honesty and knew they would once I told them where I was with the motor and where it was going. Soon after having this conversation a friend of mine blew third gear out of his 3650 coming home from the track. He said it was a full power shift into third while getting on the freeway. IIRC at the time he was at 550rhwp or so.

Input shafts can snap with a good launch at right around 500rwhp. Several people on this board have snapped them. Some don't break. I figured that I'd get more money out of a functioning 3650 than I would from a broken one so I swapped it prior to causing any damage.

There seems to be two types of modders. The ones who push things till they break and the ones who replace things before they break.

 

[raredesign]

There seems to be two types of modders. The ones who push things till they break and the ones who replace things before they break.

Thanks BruceH. Yeah, I'll attempt to take it "relatively easy" until I can afford the swap. I had a scammer posing as a contractor steal $3250 from me this summer and cause several thousand in damage. Had that not happened, I would have had the TR6060.

 

[Sonicblue_s197]

Mine held up to 850 rwhp for about a year, only hit the track 4 times with M&H drag radials, only problem I was having is it wouldn't shift past 6000 rpms after that it wouldn't come out of it until rpms dropped.