New Motor - Piston Ring Break-In/Seating???

[DiMora]

So your 302E did consume oil at first? How bad was it? How did you break-in the motor?
I truly hope I'm in the same situation where the engine seals up or stops consuming oil by 10K miles.

Bruce: I have Ford Racing valve covers. I do not know what PCV system is has as I did not install them; came with the long block.

Originally I was planning to put a breather/catch can setup on the motor, but the builder highly advised against it informing me that the PCV system would not pull oil into the intake. Well, it currently does and more than I care for. If I take the throttle body off, there is always a little pool of oil in the elbow where the throttle body bolts onto; the elbow is coated in oil.



Damn...you guys have officially freaked me out!!!! Tearing up the engine is not an option. sigh

OK, so plugs look very clean. No fouling!! If rings were not seated, would the plugs be wet or show signs of oil burning?
I am curious about doing a compression and leak down test. But I need to research how to do this properly.

This is depressing because I had lengthy conversations with the builder about break-in procedures.
A lot of people told me to break in the motor aggressively...just hammer the throttle. But the builder highly advised against it. Saying just drive her easy.

The other issue was that I could not drive the motor aggressively since the tune was not proven. Fueling, timing, etc were not dialed in; all I had was pretty much a start up tune to crank the engine and drive it easy. I did not go WOT for months later after the tune got dialed in. The motor did a lot of idling and easy driving sorting out the tune.

Break-in was as follows:

25 min initial start up where I just cranked the engine and let it run for 25 mins until the cooling fan turned on, then off.
Changed oil.
Drove it for 489 miles (easy driving due to tune).
Changed oil.
Drove it for 3,700 miles (dyno runs, lots of 3rd gear pulls, pretty much dialed in the tune). Also was informed by the builder that I should have never changed out the oil at 489 miles. They said I should have left the oil in and let it get dirty which is when the rings would have seated; then dumped it at 3,000 miles. I thought I was doing good by making sure to dump the oil at 500 miles to eliminate any metal in the oil.
Changed oil.
This is where we are today. Motor only has 4,000 miles since start up on December 23rd.

You didn't harm a thing changing the oil at 500 miles; many builders suggest that. JDM is making early excuses in case they have to tell you you are screwed if it ends up burning a quart every thousand miles. Dirty oil is not for break in; the cross hatching on the cylinder bores interacts (wears the edges) of the rings as they heat and cool while being loaded up (acceleration and deceleration). That is why no-load steady cruising (at constant RPM) is so bad for a new engine...it doesn't "load" the rings and they fail to wear and seat correctly.

The bigger issue was that you had such a poor tune you could not properly load up the rings with acceleration and deceleration to properly break in the rings during the earlay stages of its life, which is critical.

As stated, you may still be OK as your mileage increases, but if you have already done dyno pulls and you have that many miles, I am thinking you may be where you are going to be.

That is great advice to check compression as that will tell you a lot.

Since you are based on a 4.6 block you should only need a catch can on the driver's side.

Clean plugs are a good sign that it *may* not be oil getting past the rings. If the plugs are clean and the compression checks good...it's probably just a blow-by oil consumption issue.

Here's a fun read to really confuse you. I believe in this:

http://www.mototuneusa.com/break_in_secrets.htm

 

[AutoXRacer]

Sounds like you followed JDM's instructions just like I did. It would use about a half of quart of oil every 500 miles gradually decreasing up to about 5000 miles. I used the same oil you did just like JDM said(VR1). I did not hammer it at all for the first 700 miles or so but did do alot of mild acceleration up to 4500 rpms or so and then let it decel. I also did this for the clutch. I wanted to break that in gently as well. My supercharger didn't go on the engine until 3000 miles and that's when it went on the dyno and the fun began. I think you will be fine and will see the oil consumption go down, but put a catch can on there and see what kind of blowby you are getting.

You are giving me a glimpse of hope...

My setup was brand new long block, new blower, new transmission, new clutch, everything was new. lol Another reason I took it easy.

And I couldn't hammer it because it was unexplored territory. We didn't know how much boost it would make, fueling, etc... Tuning was a nightmare...oh and it was all remote.

I am thinking of going with something like this:
https://www.cantonracingproducts.co...DE-PORT--38quot-NPT-BOTTOM-PORT-WITH-PETCOCK/

Where the passenger and drive side plug into the same can.

 

[stkjock]

I had 10w-30 in mine when the build was done (break in started on the dyno) dumped the oil after 300 miles (iirc) then again at 600 and went to a full synth. Mike @ L&M said it was GTG at 600 to synth as no oil was consumed or burned.

now round 7000 miles on the motor and it hardly even puts any oil in the catch can.

 

[AutoXRacer]

So I see a lot of catch can reference.

I know this is another debate, but are catch cans preferred over breathers?
I have seen many S197 race cars equipped with breather cans over sealed cans.

 

[one eyed willy]

im using similar SS rings from modmax, they were broken in almost instantly.

i was using a JLT seperator at first and quickly found out how much i dis-liked them. over long trips it would actually suck the can dry from the vacuum of the intake. after a long drive i would start the car and see and smell the oil.....since switching out the JLT to my set up i have now, that has all stopped.

my set up is different from yours, i currently use the inlet of my turbo with a "Stefs" can to pull the crankcase pressure and a air pump at WOT also with another "Stefs" can.....it seems to work great.

 

[AutoXRacer]

im using similar SS rings from modmax, they were broken in almost instantly.

i was using a JLT seperator at first and quickly found out how much i dis-liked them. over long trips it would actually suck the can dry from the vacuum of the intake. after a long drive i would start the car and see and smell the oil.....since switching out the JLT to my set up i have now, that has all stopped.

my set up is different from yours, i currently use the inlet of my turbo with a "Stefs" can to pull the crankcase pressure and a air pump at WOT also with another "Stefs" can.....it seems to work great.

Air pump!!!!??? Are we back to the 70s!!!???

You know you opened a can of worms...describe this setup and why you need an air pump?

Damn it, I should have gone with my first intention of installing this:
http://www.crawfordperformance.com/...-oil-kit-for-oem-turbo-fmic-version-2-08-sti/

 

[one eyed willy]

i use a air pump for a 96-98 cobra. i have a hose routed from the pass side valve cover with a stefs catch can in the middle to keep as much oil as i can from actually making it to the pump. then a hose from the pump going to a breather tank to catch anything left over. the pump kicks in around 2PSI. so as soon as i get into the boost, it kicks in and pulls vacuum from the crank case. its not a super powerful pump but its enought to draw the vapor. i have agauge in my glovebox also hooked up to the pass side valve cover. in WOT i see -1 on the boost gauge. If i unhook the pump i see +1.

@ idle, the suction between the turbo inlet and the air filter pulls my vapors with a seperate catch can.

 

[AutoXRacer]

Damn, thats an elaborate system!!!

So I am guessing this is due to running a simple breather catch can is not enough.
You actually need a vacuum to pull out the vapors out of the crank case?


OK, so looking for some guidance here... Obviously the first step is to get rid of the PCV system dumping oil into the intake.

Breather can or recirculation can?

I can go with a Stef breather catch can or something like this:
http://www.saikoumichi.com/OCC_page.htm

These guys seem to be pretty popular with other manufacturer vehicles. Its just another form of the current Mustang catch can offerings.
I just feel our current options specifically for the Mustang are too small (capacity wise).

Let me know what you guys think.

Seeing how much oil I get out of the driver's side, I would run two catch cans serially since currently the passenger side is completely dry.
Although, I'd probably eventually just stick one on there just in case.

But adding a recirculation catch can would not help me with my oil issue other than removing the oil from entering the intake.
I would still be sucking the oil from the valve cover, just that it would now be collected.

 

[TheKurgan]

When you switch to breathers on both valve covers, you will no longer get any blow-by at all on the driver's side. I see no need to put anything on the driver's side except for the breather.

Exhibit A:

 

[AutoXRacer]

Is it safe to only run breathers?

Do you get crank case/oil pan pressure build up?
How do the vapors get out?

 

[HellsBells]

I use breathers. The vapors come out, you can smell them and see them if the hood is up.

Sent from my microwave

 

[TheKurgan]

I use breathers. The vapors come out, you can smell them and see them if the hood is up.

Sent from my microwave

This.

Edit: Since you are running 18 psi you might benefit from a vacuum pump. I"m only running 13psi at 6500 and I have no worries about crankcase pressure. Also, for the last 5000 miles or so I've been running the recommended oil from Ford...Motorcraft 5W20. Might go to 5W30 now that the heat of the summer is here. I would have concerns about the VCT running anything thicker than 5W30. .02

 

[HellsBells]

Also on the break-in thing, there's two schools of thoughts: beat on it or baby it (somewhat, baby it).

I'll chime in with my experience. Brenspeed recommended 10w40 conventional in my motor--for the life of the motor. Not sure why they don't recommend any synthetic after and when asked, they never answered me. Either way, I run the conventional stuff they recommend (valvoline) since they offer a warranty.

For my break in, granted I didn't have the same rings as you, they said:

1) Start up, idle for 30 mins, shut it off, change oil
2) Break-in period 400 miles, part throttle, up to 75% throttle, let the engine rev up and down, up to 4500rpm. They stressed that you want lots of heat cycles.
3) Change oil again
4) ...
5) Profit?




Also, on the Mercedes comment, I'm not sure what they do there but for example, more recently (since the mid 2000's), Toyota motors come broken in already if you buy a short block from Toyota. I was surprised when I replaced my motor in my previous car, they told me everything was already seated and broken in and you could fire it up and just drive like normal. Sure enough, I had no problems whatsoever with that motor and compared to my stock motor, it ran whisper quiet.

 

[BruceH]

So I see a lot of catch can reference.

I know this is another debate, but are catch cans preferred over breathers?
I have seen many S197 race cars equipped with breather cans over sealed cans.

It depends. Some do and some don't. I like a closed system. Tried breathers for a few days and they aren't for me. I like modern cars and see no reason to go back to a stinky breather motor.

What Paul OEWilly did to his car is a good way to go if opening it up. You should do a search on Earl retrdflyer for a setup too. He's using a krankvent system.

Damn, thats an elaborate system!!!

So I am guessing this is due to running a simple breather catch can is not enough.
You actually need a vacuum to pull out the vapors out of the crank case?


OK, so looking for some guidance here... Obviously the first step is to get rid of the PCV system dumping oil into the intake.

Breather can or recirculation can?

I can go with a Stef breather catch can or something like this:
http://www.saikoumichi.com/OCC_page.htm

These guys seem to be pretty popular with other manufacturer vehicles. Its just another form of the current Mustang catch can offerings.
I just feel our current options specifically for the Mustang are too small (capacity wise).

Let me know what you guys think.

Seeing how much oil I get out of the driver's side, I would run two catch cans serially since currently the passenger side is completely dry.
Although, I'd probably eventually just stick one on there just in case.

But adding a recirculation catch can would not help me with my oil issue other than removing the oil from entering the intake.
I would still be sucking the oil from the valve cover, just that it would now be collected.

The reason you aren't seeing anything on the passenger side is because fresh air is entering your motor through the passenger side. It exits via the drivers side and is a one way path when the pcv system is hooked up. If you leave everything as is and put a can between the driver side and intake it will remove most oil vapors and your car won't stink.

I don't know if you have noticed it yet but I do alot of things that others don't. One of them is keeping a pcv system. I think it's good for the motor to have vacuum on the crankcase rather than letting everything seep out. If you do go with breathers get a can on the passenger side because it will be the nasty side. Some people also put one on the oil fill just like the old days.

I think your car has been on the dyno enough that any break in that was going to happen already did.

You must not have a build sheet with the clearances because I've asked twice and there has been no response. If you did we might be able to figure out a way to mimimize your oil consumption by trying something different. Are you are still going to follow your builders advice? If you decide to do a tear down I'll be happy to help. It would mostly cost you on machine work. We could do a tear down, buy all the parts needed including the rings, add in machine shop costs, and the total would be under $1000.

It could be done in a couple of weekends. Take the motor out and disassemble one weekend. Assemble and install another weekend. Mod motors are pretty easy to work on imo.

 

[HellsBells]

I like modern cars and see no reason to go back to a stinky breather motor.

BUT IT SMELLS SO GOOD

 

[AutoXRacer]

BUT IT SMELLS SO GOOD

No way man!!! I had breathers on my stock motor... I stopped using the vents in the car...always had to use recirculation...my so called fresh air stunk!!!



Bruce: I never got a build sheet. I asked the builder for one...never got a reply. sigh

What would be in the build sheet that would give an insight??

I am not tearing down the motor...its under warranty...well, its supposed to have a warranty. Whether its exercised is another story.

I feel like the oil consumption issue, may be related to the oil being pulled out of the valve cover. The oil I have to add to the motor, I am fairly convinced is roughly the same amount being sucked into the intake.

Now, other than a missing PCV valve, what would cause the excessive lost of oil through the valve cover?

 

[HellsBells]

No way man!!! I had breathers on my stock motor... I stopped using the vents in the car...always had to use recirculation...my so called fresh air stunk!!!



Bruce: I never got a build sheet. I asked the builder for one...never got a reply. sigh

What would be in the build sheet that would give an insight??

I am not tearing down the motor...its under warranty...well, its supposed to have a warranty. Whether its exercised is another story.

I feel like the oil consumption issue, may be related to the oil being pulled out of the valve cover. The oil I have to add to the motor, I am fairly convinced is roughly the same amount being sucked into the intake.

Now, other than a missing PCV valve, what would cause the excessive lost of oil through the valve cover?

Mine was really bad at first but now it's mostly gone...not sure if the motor is running better or I just got used to it.

Did you get a can hooked up? I would go as far as saying you should go to home depot, get a couple of those air compressor oil separators, splice them in real quick, drive it and see if it all pools up in there. If that's the problem, it'll be immediately obvious. If it's really the rings not being seated, you should probably take Bruce up on his kind offer--you race the car, you don't want this to be a problem down the road.

Now this is stupid but...there's no oil leaking from the front cover or anything right? Mine leaks from the front cover (Bruce has a great thread on this) but it's not noticeable enough to see on the dipstick.

 

[AutoXRacer]

Mine was really bad at first but now it's mostly gone...not sure if the motor is running better or I just got used to it.

Did you get a can hooked up? I would go as far as saying you should go to home depot, get a couple of those air compressor oil separators, splice them in real quick, drive it and see if it all pools up in there. If that's the problem, it'll be immediately obvious. If it's really the rings not being seated, you should probably take Bruce up on his kind offer--you race the car, you don't want this to be a problem down the road.

Now this is stupid but...there's no oil leaking from the front cover or anything right? Mine leaks from the front cover (Bruce has a great thread on this) but it's not noticeable enough to see on the dipstick.

Nope, no leaks.

The only reason I would not tear the engine apart is like I said, its under warranty. Its the reason I had a fully sealed engine built. If anything is wrong with the engine, I am shipping it back to the builder!!!!

Would it be noticeable (performance-wise) if the rings were not seated?

 

[HellsBells]

I'm not an expert here but from what I understand, you would lose power by virtue of oil getting into the combustion chamber. At redline, that's probably a lot of oil getting burnt--it's not good long term and it'll also lower your effective octane. Also, I'm sure oil is getting into some cylinders more than others, so you probably have some cylinders leaner/fatter than others. I guess my concern for you is that you have a high horsepower car that sees track duty, I would hate to hit the track and worry every time about the oil level etc etc...

Has the engine builder said anything about this?

 

[BruceH]

No way man!!! I had breathers on my stock motor... I stopped using the vents in the car...always had to use recirculation...my so called fresh air stunk!!!



Bruce: I never got a build sheet. I asked the builder for one...never got a reply. sigh

What would be in the build sheet that would give an insight??

I am not tearing down the motor...its under warranty...well, its supposed to have a warranty. Whether its exercised is another story.

I feel like the oil consumption issue, is related to the oil being pulled out of the valve cover. The oil I have to add to the motor, I am fairly convinced is the same amount being sucked into the intake.

Now, other than a missing PCV valve, what would cause the excessive lost of oil through the valve cover?

Despite Marc S claims to the contrary I'm not an engineer. Be that as it may I'd still like to know what the clearances are. The bearing and piston to bore would be of the most concern but also rod side clearance and endplay. What is concerning is that there isn't a sheet. People usually write down what they check, if yours wasn't checked (pure speculation on my part) then there could be unknown issues.

Before we go much farther though how about just putting a catch can on the drivers side and monitoring what is caught? A little bit of oil can look like more than it is because it spreads.

If there wasn't a pcv valve or splash cover in the valve cover you would be more prone to lose oil. The vacuum is there to suck up anything that's splashing around or getting pumped up near the hole. An easy way to check is to blow into it. If you can blow into it then there isn't a pcv. Since you have a pd blower the crankcase wouldn't pressurize without a pcv.