New old mustang engine noise help

[Midlife Crises]

That cam is dead. Polishing is not an option. All the little flakes of metal that ended up in the oil pan have likely gone through the oil pump and got captured in the filter. I would not be worried about the bearings but the oil pump gears could be chewed up a bit. Definitely check the other side. I see what looks like old, original cam followers so replace them all and lash adjusters also. This is an opportunity to upgrade your cams a little bit and there are several cams available that work with stock springs. Do not skimp on the valve train and drive parts. Buy only Ford parts to go with the new cams.

 

[tnythetigr]

Here’s the culprit. Bought a set of rollers. Question is which cams do I replace with? Suggestions?

 

[GlassTop09]

That cam is dead. Polishing is not an option. All the little flakes of metal that ended up in the oil pan have likely gone through the oil pump and got captured in the filter. I would not be worried about the bearings but the oil pump gears could be chewed up a bit. Definitely check the other side. I see what looks like old, original cam followers so replace them all and lash adjusters also. This is an opportunity to upgrade your cams a little bit and there are several cams available that work with stock springs. Do not skimp on the valve train and drive parts. Buy only Ford parts to go with the new cams.

+1................in addition to what Midlife Crises posted, I'd highly suggest that you put a gauge on the oil pump & check actual oil pump pressure output at the following 3 points...........actual cold start w\ cold engine (baseline off cold oil flow), then at full hot normal idle speed (critical), then at full hot 2,000 RPMs (critical) to see the full operating range of oil pump pressures to determine the overall operational status of its operations to then make a better assessment of current engine operational conditions thus any future necessary repairs\replacements\options.

This also IMHO needs to not be skimped on........especially after what you just witnessed.......the failure of these parts is oil-related (cam followers from oil starved needle bearings--splash lubed only--causing the roller to seize thus wear against the rotating cam lobe until the lash is lost then the follower will usually get thrown off the valve by rotating cam lobe.......you caught this before it got to that point, or the cam follower gets thrashed by a leaking lash adjuster--check valve in lash adjuster not seating off fully when rotating cam lobe is starting to open valve--causing the follower to lose lash against rotating cam lobe thus gets hammered by the cam lobe nose during valve actuation causing valve bounce across the cam lobe nose which continues to hammer the follower roller until the follower lands on the closing back slope of the rotating cam lobe coming to rest during\while valve is closing on its seat).

No more guessing\assuming of this after this point.........unless you like to keep playing Russian roulette w\ this engine........

Lower oil volume flow in cyl heads is the start of this, thus why the actual operating oil pump pressure should be checked\known...............the only way to know this is to attach an oil pressure gauge where the engine oil pressure switch is located & read it w\ engine running. Don't need to drive the car, just free-rev engine to 2,000 RPMs to get this check, the other 2 can be taken while engine is going thru normal cold start cycle to full hot idle.

Oil pump pressure & oil pump volume flow output are related.........pressure is measurement of oil pump volume output flow thru engine components causing flow restriction thus pressure buildup. Any pressure output less than 75 psi @ 2,000 RPMs full hot means that the oil pump volume output flow thus pressure output is lower than the relief spring setting (in 4.6L 3V @ 80 psi spring) thus the relief valve (I better prefer metering valve as this is the actual operation of this valve) is always shut.........this is indication of oil pump losing some volume flow output thus is an indicator.......the full hot idle speed oil pressure reading will indicate how bad this has gotten........the big question then is where in engine is the cause........only 3 places for this, 1.) crank\rod journals & cam journals, 2.) timing components, ie, lash adjusters, cam phasers, VCT solenoids & chain tensioners, 3.) oil pump itself\oil pickup screen or 4.) a combination of the above 3 mentioned.

In typical usual order IMHO, timing components are the #1 area of initial oil pressure\volume flow loss followed by the oil pump itself as #2 (upstream of oil filter thus is usually the 1st place for any dislodged metal trash to do damage......as Midlife Crises has posted) followed up by crank\rod\cam journals (typically normal bearing wear but could be abnormal as well.......based off oil type being used & oil change maintenance scheduling.....usually protected by oil filter) at #3.

Hope this helps.

 

[tnythetigr]

+1................in addition to what Midlife Crises posted, I'd highly suggest that you put a gauge on the oil pump & check actual oil pump pressure output at the following 3 points...........actual cold start w\ cold engine (baseline off cold oil flow), then at full hot normal idle speed (critical), then at full hot 2,000 RPMs (critical) to see the full operating range of oil pump pressures to determine the overall operational status of its operations to then make a better assessment of current engine operational conditions thus any future necessary repairs\replacements\options.

This also IMHO needs to not be skimped on........especially after what you just witnessed.......the failure of these parts is oil-related (cam followers from oil starved needle bearings--splash lubed only--causing the roller to seize thus wear against the rotating cam lobe until the lash is lost then the follower will usually get thrown off the valve by rotating cam lobe.......you caught this before it got to that point, or the cam follower gets thrashed by a leaking lash adjuster--check valve in lash adjuster not seating off fully when rotating cam lobe is starting to open valve--causing the follower to lose lash against rotating cam lobe thus gets hammered by the cam lobe nose during valve actuation causing valve bounce across the cam lobe nose which continues to hammer the follower roller until the follower lands on the closing back slope of the rotating cam lobe coming to rest during\while valve is closing on its seat).

No more guessing\assuming of this after this point.........unless you like to keep playing Russian roulette w\ this engine........

Lower oil volume flow in cyl heads is the start of this, thus why the actual operating oil pump pressure should be checked\known...............the only way to know this is to attach an oil pressure gauge where the engine oil pressure switch is located & read it w\ engine running. Don't need to drive the car, just free-rev engine to 2,000 RPMs to get this check, the other 2 can be taken while engine is going thru normal cold start cycle to full hot idle.

Oil pump pressure & oil pump volume flow output are related.........pressure is measurement of oil pump volume output flow thru engine components causing flow restriction thus pressure buildup. Any pressure output less than 75 psi @ 2,000 RPMs full hot means that the oil pump volume output flow thus pressure output is lower than the relief spring setting (in 4.6L 3V @ 80 psi spring) thus the relief valve (I better prefer metering valve as this is the actual operation of this valve) is always shut.........this is indication of oil pump losing some volume flow output thus is an indicator.......the full hot idle speed oil pressure reading will indicate how bad this has gotten........the big question then is where in engine is the cause........only 3 places for this, 1.) crank\rod journals & cam journals, 2.) timing components, ie, lash adjusters, cam phasers, VCT solenoids & chain tensioners, 3.) oil pump itself\oil pickup screen or 4.) a combination of the above 3 mentioned.

In typical usual order IMHO, timing components are the #1 area of initial oil pressure\volume flow loss followed by the oil pump itself as #2 (upstream of oil filter thus is usually the 1st place for any dislodged metal trash to do damage......as Midlife Crises has posted) followed up by crank\rod\cam journals (typically normal bearing wear but could be abnormal as well.......based off oil type being used & oil change maintenance scheduling.....usually protected by oil filter) at #3.

Hope this helps.

Thanks for the detailed write up! I'm trying to follow but a relative newbie. Are you saying this was likely caused from oil pressure drop as a result of one of the 3 (or combo) items you call out above?

 

[Midlife Crises]

Here’s the culprit. Bought a set of rollers. Question is which cams do I replace with? Suggestions?View attachment 103279

Dino Dino Bambino has provided the part numbers you will need to repair the valve train and oil pump.This is the GOLD STANDARD for the 3 valve. Choosing a cam set is a whole different jar of nuts. If you are happy with stock performance and don’t want to hassle with tunes then stock Ford cams are just the thing. When I ran Detroit Rockers I really liked the sound and drivability but they require a tune and tuner. I used Brenspeed at that time and they did a good job tuning back then. Others here can offer their experience with different cams in the same class.

 

[Midlife Crises]

Thanks for the detailed write up! I'm trying to follow but a relative newbie. Are you saying this was likely caused from oil pressure drop as a result of one of the 3 (or combo) items you call out above?

I agree with GlassTop09 that oil starvation and/or crappy oil is the likely cause of the cam follower failure.

 

[GlassTop09]

Thanks for the detailed write up! I'm trying to follow but a relative newbie. Are you saying this was likely caused from oil pressure drop as a result of one of the 3 (or combo) items you call out above?

I'm not only saying it, but FoMoCo is also saying it..........between the lines. This is why I say this...........

Provided in picture below is 1.) the original Ford production cam follower design paired against the 2.) new redesigned Ford post-production cam follower. Note the oil spray hole size in each.......now why would you use a much smaller oil spray hole in the new part vs the old part? What is Ford trying to make up for here? This is simple physics..........the same principle of you using your thumb to choke the outlet of a garden hose to increase fluid spray length........... Low oil pump volume output thus oil pressure in the cyl heads thru the lash adjusters.......which provide the oil needed to adequately lube the cam follower roller's needle bearings.......if enough of it gets to them, that is. Lack of adequate lubrication causes these bearings to fail, pure & simple............which then sets up the rest of what you've seen.

Now how many times does this has to be typed\shown for folks to get the message? Thus, why I say folks are playing Russian roulette w\ their 3V the longer you allow these old original production parts to remain in service.........regardless of the "reasoning" or how well intentioned it is........

Provided below is another picture of 1 of the new redesigned Ford cam followers that got hammered as I described this in earlier post by a cam lobe that had a leaking lash adjuster under it (found this during my FRPP Hot Rod cam swap..........now I know what blew the original Ford designed cam follower apart just after my 1st Lunati VooDoo cam swap.......this was on the same #7 cyl, the same intake valve using the OEM Ford valve springs that I found the broken cam follower under back in early 2020 that broke just 6 months after cam swapout but took me approx 4 months to track it down as engine output no noise but kept showing a P0307 #7 cyl misfire but plug & coil were not misfiring........a structural failure of this part not caused by inadequate oiling to the cam follower roller bearings, but a loss of valve control during activation from leaking lash adjuster causing valve bounce across the cam lobe nose which caused the damage on the roller surface & wore out the cam lobe nose this time, didn't hurt the same cam lobe the 1st time due to cam follower giving up far too early)......which actually demonstrates why you should change to these new Ford redesigned cam followers along w\ new lash adjusters ASAP...........this new follower took this same abuse for 4+ yrs w\ only roller surface damage & nothing else vs the original cam follower getting blown in 2 just 6 months after cam swap........testament to Ford beefing these up structurally as well which IMHO also calls for immediate changeout, regardless of current conditions, due to the known risk & design deficiencies of the original parts.

Everything you've read from others I've already walked them paths of reasoning.........I've done the prior checks & verified all was still good..........until reality showed it wasn't.

Every time you pull the valve covers\front timing cover off & don't fully address this stuff at that time is time that you could've averted these issues.......thus work time\money wasted IMHO. Yes, I know the costs to replace this stuff..........I also know the costs that can hit you if you don't...............so does Ford--tis why the redesign.

Some of this stuff you just can't see\feel using the naked eye\fingers alone or judge ahead of time.............. This all starts w\ the oil pump's operating condition.......the least checked\most assumed part of this engine due to the fake oil pressure gauge\warning lights...........

Sorry if my tone thru my posting upsets you, but I'm not gonna sugar coat any of this as I've been there, done that already.........thus am trying to save you from going thru it..........

The rest is up to you............the past is of no consequence, the present thus future is..............these redesigned parts have been out since 2015........post-production of this 4.6L\5.4L Modular engine...............

It's your car thus your money............thus your decision & the consequences from your decision in the end.

Can't blame Ford here............

Hope this helps.

 

[JC SSP]

If you want to do it right change everything… my question is are stock valve springs OK or should be upgraded?

 

[GlassTop09]

1 more piece of advise................

If installing new lash adjusters, I repeat, DO NOT install these in bores dry.........submerge them in engine oil then PRIME them prior installation to do 2 things............1.) so they will maintain 0 lash to prevent cam follower from getting potentially thrown out during initial startup until they actually prime & pump up & 2.) to TEST the check valves in them for leakoff........plunger should get ROCK HARD once primed & STAY THAT WAY afterwards......BEFORE installing them in heads.

Just because they're new doesn't mean they're GOOD..............

Hope this helps.

 

[JC SSP]

I always submerge my lifters over night in engine oil or transmission fluid. Also assemble lube in all contacting surfaces. After starting and let the engine reach temp, then do drain and complete oil & filter change.

 

[GlassTop09]

If you want to do it right change everything… my question is are stock valve springs OK or should be upgraded?

This is another 1 of these intersecting pieces of "while you're in there" decisions...........can they potentially lose tension over time..........the answer is yes........simple science of metallurgy from constant heat cycling over time.

All data I've seen\read suggests these original Ford 3V valve springs have a very, very low failure rate thus "could " be an area where prolonged usage presents a very low risk of damage from a dropped valve from spring breakage........but a risk nonetheless.............

My simple answer to your question is this........if this concerns you enough, I say change them out.

What I try to use is the Mode 6 cyl misfire monitor data to make my determination.......if I see a large number of cyl misfire counts but I KNOW the plugs & coils aren't the cause & I have already changed out to the new redesigned cam followers & lash adjusters, then I'm going after the valve springs\valve stem seals at a minimum, but most likely pulling the heads at a minimum & getting a fresh, but upgraded valve job that takes into account the valve guides, valve seats as well as valves.

Depending upon engine mileage then you're facing another decision at that point.............do you just pull the engine out for a rebuild\replacement to cover everything else?

My 2 cents.......................

 

[Dino Dino Bambino]

Depending upon engine mileage then you're facing another decision at that point.............do you just pull the engine out for a rebuild\replacement to cover everything else?

If you go down the engine replacement rabbit hole, you're then faced with another decision. Is it time to perform a Coyote swap?
I really don't think @tnythetigr needs to go anywhere close to that. All he has to do is replace all the parts that I listed plus one new OEM cam to get the engine running sweetly again. The inside of the engine looks very clean and free of varnish, which suggests that previous owners kept up with oil changes and used good quality oil.
That said for an extra $1000, he could upgrade the cams and if he does the PAC-1233 valve spring upgrade (reusing OEM retainers/keepers) at the same time, he could choose the CompCams stage 2 VSR cams #127300 (more valve lift).

 

[Midlife Crises]

I’ve never heard of a stock valve spring breaking on a 4.6 3 valve. Followers or the valve itself, yes but not the spring. I’m not saying they don’t loose tension, just not prone to breakage. My advice is to always run the valve springs that are recommended by the cam manufacturer for the specific cam you are using and when replacing everything else in the valve train include new springs.

 

[bambam 06]

That DOEs sound like the clatter of a seized cam follower. You'd be well advised not to drive that car any further until you've pulled the valve cover on the side with the noise and inspected the valvetrain. Otherwise you risk turning a repairable engine into one with catastrophic damage.
The mileage on it is surprisingly low to have such a problem, and that makes me wonder if the PO ragged it to death. At this point you'd better refurbish the whole valvetrain to ensure future reliability. Here's a full parts list for you:

Ford Performance Camshaft Drive Kit: M-6004-463V
Ford Performance Rocker Arm Lash Adjuster Kit: M-6529-3V
Felpro Timing Chain Tensioner Gasket Set: ES73226
OEM valve stem oil seals: 3L3Z-6571-DA (or Viton valve stem oil seals)
PQY Performance valve spring compressor: VSC07B (to replace valve stem oil seals)
OEM '13-'14 Shelby GT500 high pressure oil pump: DR3Z6600A
OEM 3V oil pump pickup tube:4R3Z6622AA
VCT Solenoids: 8L3Z-6M280-B

Dino, i just ordered the Rocker Arm Lash Adjuster Kit: M-6529-3V; Since i am strict when it comes to PM. Do i have to remove the cams to do the job? TIA

 

[Dino Dino Bambino]

Dino, i just ordered the Rocker Arm Lash Adjuster Kit: M-6529-3V; Since i am strict when it comes to PM. Do i have to remove the cams to do the job? TIA

Your answer is in the videos I posted here:

New old mustang engine noise help

I just purchased back my original 2007 Mustang GT. Other than curb rash, some paint blemishes and interior wear it’s exactly like I sold it 10 years ago! Went through two owners and 5k or so miles. Total mileage is 75k. Anyway, second or third drive and I have engine noise that I assume is the...

www.s197forum.com

 

[tnythetigr]

Really appreciate all the guidance! Project kicking off this week. Stay tuned...

I received the Ford performance cams and both have attached imperfections. Assuming this is not normal?

 

[Dino Dino Bambino]

I received the Ford performance cams and both have attached imperfections. Assuming this is not normal?

View attachment 103458

Definitely not normal. I'm going to assume those cams are used because it seems a gorilla tried to install the phasers using an impact wrench to tighten the bolt. Evidently the phaser roll pin wasn't properly seated in the cam nose recess and a new false recess was created. Unfortunately those cams are now scrap unless you can get someone to repair the damage.

Lesson when installing new phasers: NEVER EVER use an impact wrench to tighten the phaser bolts. ALWAYS do it manually with a socket wrench ensuring that the phaser roll pin is in its recess with the phaser sitting flush on the cam nose. Then use a torque wrench for the final torque setting. These bolts are TTY and one time use only.

 

[tnythetigr]

Another lesson. Only purchase from an authorized Ford reseller

 

[Midlife Crises]

Really appreciate all the guidance! Project kicking off this week. Stay tuned...

I received the Ford performance cams and both have attached imperfections. Assuming this is not normal?

View attachment 103458

No way in this world I would use that cam. What else did that gorilla do?

 

[GriffX]

Do I need assembly lube when I change the rocker arms, or is normal oil enough? I only find Liqui Moly LM48 here.