Not your typical cam position sensor issue

[AbdullaGT500]

Wonder why your phaser doesn't have an R. Is it aftermarket?

 

[Flapjack]

So, the more I look at the second picture, the less it looks like the cam fingers are in the right spot on the passenger side cam. However, looking back at older pictures, that's how that cam has always been. I don't think it's the cause of my current issues, but now I'm irritated that it's off... it probably explains why my compression/trims are a little different on one side of the engine.

On those gears, their was a "R". On the new gears, there is just a "I". Not sure if that is just a manufacturing or what... but at any rate, you can see the difference in where the fingers point in relation to the gear. I tried moving the fingers again, and that thing won't budge. Looking at the pic from a few years back, it's in the same spot.

Again, I don't think it's the cause of the P0340/P0345/P0344/P0349 issues, but I'm wondering if I shouldn't address it now, while the engine is out. I'm also wondering if that is somehow the way the 5.4L 3v cam gears are. I don't even remember where I got them. I think Rich from RGR sent them with the cams, but I don't remember...

Here is a pic of the old cam gear (left) compared to the one on there now (right):

 

[Flapjack]

Wonder why your phaser doesn't have an R. Is it aftermarket?

Not aftermarket. I honestly can't remember where I got them. I will have to search my emails with JPC and RGR to see if I can figure it out.

 

[sportinawoody]

Are your cams degree's ? I would probably start with Ford phasers regardless

 

[BruceH]

So, the more I look at the second picture, the less it looks like the cam fingers are in the right spot on the passenger side cam. However, looking back at older pictures, that's how that cam has always been. I don't think it's the cause of my current issues, but now I'm irritated that it's off... it probably explains why my compression/trims are a little different on one side of the engine.

On those gears, their was a "R". On the new gears, there is just a "I". Not sure if that is just a manufacturing or what... but at any rate, you can see the difference in where the fingers point in relation to the gear. I tried moving the fingers again, and that thing won't budge. Looking at the pic from a few years back, it's in the same spot.

Again, I don't think it's the cause of the P0340/P0345/P0344/P0349 issues, but I'm wondering if I shouldn't address it now, while the engine is out. I'm also wondering if that is somehow the way the 5.4L 3v cam gears are. I don't even remember where I got them. I think Rich from RGR sent them with the cams, but I don't remember...

Here is a pic of the old cam gear (left) compared to the one on there now (right):

That looks like a significant difference. Enough to matter for the spark delivery. I'm guesstimating around 10 degrees.

 

[lito]

Not aftermarket. I honestly can't remember where I got them. I will have to search my emails with JPC and RGR to see if I can figure it out.

Older phaser versions didn't had the "R", but the reluctor is waaaay off, that would render the codes you are seeing.

That looks like a significant difference. Enough to matter for the spark delivery. I'm guesstimating around 10 degrees.

Spark and everything else goes by CKP, not CMP.

 

[Flapjack]

That looks like a significant difference. Enough to matter for the spark delivery. I'm guesstimating around 10 degrees.

Yeah... it does look pretty bad.

Older phaser versions didn't had the "R", but the reluctor is waaaay off, that would render the codes you are seeing.

I normally would agree that it was the source of the codes, but looking at the pictures from a few years ago, it was in the same spot. The last picture I posted was from 2012-2013, before you tuned it and it made 1000+ HP. I don't recall ever having those lights before, but then again... they don't seem to trip the CEL. It is maybe possible that I never noticed them, but then again, I was constantly checking the car out, pulling codes, etc.

Is it possible for those codes to set without affecting driveability? They don't seem to trigger a CEL alone. The codes I was getting before were all related to throttle body, MAF wiring, etc. If I put it all back together now, I wonder if maybe it's worth taking a drive. Then again, I'd be putting it back together knowing the reluctor is off. But if it doesn't affect timing, and compression is good (since timing goes off the mark on the gear... not on the ring), it wouldn't affect anything... right?

 

[lito]

Yes, those codes, if the cams are not moving around, would not affect at all. Damn, you can even start and run your car with the CMPs off.

 

[Flapjack]

Yes, those codes, if the cams are not moving around, would not affect at all. Damn, you can even start and run your car with the CMPs off.

Interesting. So I wonder if all is well now. I guess I'll put it all back together and see what happens.

Are the codes that inaccurate? The guaranteed codes to appear are P0340 and P0345, which indicate a circuit malfunction. Occasionally, I get P0344 and P0349, which indicate "signal intermittent". Still, the codes set on both sides... not just the one with that goofy reluctor.

Do you think I should get new cam gears... just in case? I think I am also going to order a GOOD alternator. What is the best/most reliable one these days?

 

[lito]

A moving cam will give the same codes while everything electrical is in perfect shape.

A Denso alternator.

 

[Flapjack]

A moving cam will give the same codes while everything electrical is in perfect shape.

That makes sense, then...

A Denso alternator.

Ok, I'll grab that. What about the cam gears? Are they worth changing?

 

[sportinawoody]

absolutely change those since you're there, order the whole timing kit, its cheaper thru ford racing for the kit than it is thru ford for just the phasers and you get gaskets, crank reluctor, cam bolts, tensioners, etc with the kit . hit steve @ tasca up

 

[eighty6gt]

Ford Racing (M-6004-463V) Camshaft Drive Kit for Ford 4.6L 3V Engine, Radiator Caps - Amazon Canada@@AMEPARAM@@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51owE-PxZIL.@@AMEPARAM@@51owE-PxZIL

They were selling these for about $125 (no joke, I bought a set,) until recently. Check it out now!!

 

[Flapjack]

Wow. You should've got a couple. That's like an investment. The cheapest I can find is $500 now.

 

[eighty6gt]

I asked on here if anyone wanted one, would sell for $350 USD to make some money, zero response.

I might try shining shoes or something for some extra cash, I need 2 radial tires this year and that will be $800.

 

[Flapjack]

The kits are pretty cheap online. I can get the phasers/gears and two new cam bolts for $135. But after talking with BruceH, I think they are supposed to be like that. I've mentioned this in the thread, but it bears mentioning again... the cams are locked out, I believe in the fully advanced position. There are no springs behind the reluctor ring, no VCT solenoids, nothing. This is what the heads look like now. It's hard to tell from the pic, but I believe the fingers are a bit off-center here as well:

 

[BruceH]

If you locked them out with 10* of built in adjustment then it could be. The only way to tell for sure is to take them apart and see what's in there for a lockout. 10* would have to have a sliver of material on the other side of the chamber from where the bigger lockout is to prevent movement. This is because the full chamber allows for 60* of movement.

 

[Flapjack]

If you locked them out with 10* of built in adjustment then it could be. The only way to tell for sure is to take them apart and see what's in there for a lockout. 10* would have to have a sliver of material on the other side of the chamber from where the bigger lockout is to prevent movement. This is because the full chamber allows for 60* of movement.

I do know they were installed in the advanced position. I just looked through my emails back and forth with Justin at JPC. I didn't realize the reluctors ever moved independently from the gears. If that's the case, then it would explain why both are exactly the same off. From my eyeball guess, I would definitely say the finger is about 10* off from the timing marks.

Here are some more pics from the way it's sitting in the garage right now:

 

[Flapjack]

Since it was finally nice and warm out here in Colorado, and I was already out in the driveway working on brakes, I finally got some time to pull apart the cam phasers in the Mustang.

The first thing I noted was that the reluctor ring was a tiny bit wiggly on the right side, and very wiggly on the left. Neither of them would actually turn at all, however. Additionally, after holding the phaser between my knees and loosening the bolts, the right reluctor is now just as wiggly as the left. Looking inside, there are tiny little posts that look like they were welded at some point. Can those just be spot welded back in place?

As for the lockouts, it looks like I have the two piece ones.

Here's a video of the wiggling:


Here's a pic of the lockouts:

 

[BruceH]

That looks closer to 20 degrees to me, more than 10 at any rate. I'm basing it on the fact that one of the phaser chambers allows for 60 degrees of retard, full advance is 0 degrees.

Have you measured the parts for comparison side to side?