Not your typical cam position sensor issue

[Flapjack]

That looks closer to 20 degrees to me, more than 10 at any rate. I'm basing it on the fact that one of the phaser chambers allows for 60 degrees of retard, full advance is 0 degrees.

Have you measured the parts for comparison side to side?

Not sure what you mean by measuring?

 

[BruceH]

Measure total travel allowed without the lockout, then measure what is allowed with only the large part installed.

Without any parts installed the total travel will be close to 60 degrees of travel. Divide this measurement by 60. The result should be fairly close to how much travel each degree represents. Then, measure allowed travel with only the large part installed, divide this number by the previous result and you should have a ballpark as to how much retard is being created by the thin part.

You could also rig a degree wheel up to the phaser and measure degrees of movement with the small part taken out. Both sides should be real close.

Now that I think about it you can also just use a degree wheel and figure out where the icl is on each side.

 

[Flapjack]

Measure total travel allowed without the lockout, then measure what is allowed with only the large part installed.

Without any parts installed the total travel will be close to 60 degrees of travel. Divide this measurement by 60. The result should be fairly close to how much travel each degree represents. Then, measure allowed travel with only the large part installed, divide this number by the previous result and you should have a ballpark as to how much retard is being created by the thin part.

You could also rig a degree wheel up to the phaser and measure degrees of movement with the small part taken out. Both sides should be real close.

Now that I think about it you can also just use a degree wheel and figure out where the icl is on each side.

Well, I don't have a degree wheel, which I agree, would be the best to measure.... however, I just need to move on and get this thing fixed. I just want to get the parts I need ordered so that I can get this thing back together.

Based on past chats with you about this, you recommend the cams being locked in the fully advanced (default) position, correct? If that's the case, i t looks like these will do the trick:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/2005-2011-F...ash=item280eaf9999:g:V~EAAOSw5ZBWHaN5&vxp=mtr

Also, are those cam phaser triggers supposed to move... even a little bit? Should I try and have them repaired, or is that not recommended? I'd rather not buy new phasers... but I will if I have to. I'd like to get everything ordered today, if at all possible.

 

[BruceH]

With lockouts (unless they are two piece like yours) it's either going to be 0 degrees or 60 degrees retarded. 0 is your only option. Since your cams are on a 112 icl (am I remembering that correctly?) I wouldn't want any more retard. That's about the same as having 127550 cams retarded 10 degrees all the time.

If the fingers are only wobbling on the roll pins it's no big deal. If they are able to rotate it's a bigger issue. The cam bolt will stop them from wobbling once it's torqued down, the pins keep them in the correct position.

 

[Flapjack]

With lockouts (unless they are two piece like yours) it's either going to be 0 degrees or 60 degrees retarded. 0 is your only option. Since your cams are on a 112 icl (am I remembering that correctly?) I wouldn't want any more retard. That's about the same as having 127550 cams retarded 10 degrees all the time.

If the fingers are only wobbling on the roll pins it's no big deal. If they are able to rotate it's a bigger issue. The cam bolt will stop them from wobbling once it's torqued down, the pins keep them in the correct position.

Cool. I will get the regular lockouts then.

Were you able to look at the video? That is the extent to which they wiggle. I'll check the pins to make sure they're intact.

 

[Flapjack]

My apologies for waiting this long to update the thread. I've had some major progress, but am hung up on something else now. Luckily, Lito is helping me work through it.

The lockouts seemed to do the trick. I still don't understand why I had the CPS errors, but it might've had something to do with updating the firmware on my SCT X3, as other errors that didn't previously show up now do as well (for example, a fuel pump driver module error due to having a return style fuel system).

The problem now is that bank 1 is running really rich. On E85, the car started and ran, but stayed very rich on bank 1, to the point where a CEL popped for front O2 on that bank stuck rich. At that point, the PCM gave up trying to adjust STFTs and the wideband for that side indicated 12x (gas values... as my wb isn't adjustable for E85). Bank 2 was in the 14s... with some trimming, probably due to the change in cam phaser lockouts.

I was running very low on E85, and I intended to switch back to gas anyway, so I pumped the rest of the E85 out and dumped 5 gallons of premium in (all I had on me). I ran the pump without the car running just to get things stirred up a bit, then started it (after flashing the last 91 octane Lito tune I had). The car ran and did the exact same thing. Unfortunately, I didn't have my laptop on me. But the results were the same. Bank 1 stuck rich, 12s on the passenger side wb, etc.

I shut down, ran back to the house to get my laptop, and tried to start it again, but with the datalogger running. It wouldn't start without the pedal all the way down, and after it started, it wouldn't idle without constant pedal input. The second you let your foot off, it dies.

I was able to get a short log out of it, and Lito said everything looked fine sensor-wise. He suggested one or more of my injectors could be stuck.... something that seems to be common with Bosch 160lb injectors... especially after sitting for a while (years, in my case).

He said to "bench test" them, but I have no idea how to do that. The most I've ever done is grabbed a set of noid lights from VatoZone and made sure they were cycling. He said that is not enough, and that I need to bench them. Is that something I can do locally, or do I need to send them off?

If even one is dead, that is not something I want to encounter again. I've heard Bosch doesn't make the 160s anymore, but makes a 200lb one that is supposed to be better. Looks like a set of those are around $1500. Of course, there are the ID2000s, but those are $2000... unless someone has a better source. I really don't want to blow that much cash on new injectors, but I do have a bonus coming.

 

[Flapjack]

One thing I just remembered.... the little EMI thingy on the passenger side, the one that bolts to the top of the engine cover, is missing. I can't find it anywhere. I know they reduce EMI in the harness, but I doubt it would be enough to cause a serious flood of fuel on that side of the engine.

Could I be underestimating the importance of having that thing installed? It does happen to be on the same side of the engine that is running rich...

 

[sportinawoody]

Yes if you're referring to the resistor thing that bolts on both banks and has only 1 wire with 12v. That is a big deal. Just ran into that problem on a coyote car

 

[Flapjack]

Yes if you're referring to the resistor thing that bolts on both banks and has only 1 wire with 12v. That is a big deal. Just ran into that problem on a coyote car

Great. Well, I need to find the stupid thing, then. It should be around somewhere, but I've already tore up the garage looking for it.

I don't even know what the official name for it is.

 

[eighty6gt]

Time is money get Tasca to send you one. Wouldn't it be nuts if that was the problem!?

 

[Flapjack]

Time is money get Tasca to send you one. Wouldn't it be nuts if that was the problem!?

It would be crazy. Does anyone have the part number?

 

[swflastang05]

Hopefully it's the resistor component, but if it's not I would send the injectors to be tested. I sent my previous set of Bosch 1000 cc injectors to Wilson Manifolds to have them flowed, cleaned, and tested. They provide a detailed report with each injectors performance before and after cleaning, along with their recommendation, if applicable. I think they charged around $130 for this. Turns out my injectors failed, some were locking shut while the pressure was above 50 psi! This explains why I had a collapsed piston and rings that lost their tension in that cylinder. I bit the bullet and ordered a nice set of ID 1300's, no more taking chances with such critical parts for me. Either way good luck with yours!

 

[Flapjack]

Hopefully it's the resistor component, but if it's not I would send the injectors to be tested. I sent my previous set of Bosch 1000 cc injectors to Wilson Manifolds to have them flowed, cleaned, and tested. They provide a detailed report with each injectors performance before and after cleaning, along with their recommendation, if applicable. I think they charged around $130 for this. Turns out my injectors failed, some were locking shut while the pressure was above 50 psi! This explains why I had a collapsed piston and rings that lost their tension in that cylinder. I bit the bullet and ordered a nice set of ID 1300's, no more taking chances with such critical parts for me. Either way good luck with yours!

I've been searching the forums... were you the one that sent yours off to be serviced, then had the fuel geyser afterwards?

 

[swflastang05]

I've been searching the forums... were you the one that sent yours off to be serviced, then had the fuel geyser afterwards?

No, not me. Wilson recommended replacing my injectors, so I did. The old ones are sitting on the shelf in my garage, most likely never to be used again.

 

[Flapjack]

I didn't have much time for working on the car last night, but I did go out with a battery and put voltage to each injector... not directly on the injector plug, but on the crappy EV1 adapter, in case that was the problem. Each injector clicked exactly like they are supposed to. From what I've read, if they are stuck open, they will not click on/off with application of voltage.

I also the remaining resistor/condenser thing. It has a part number of YL1F-18801-AA. The quick answer I see from a lot of posts is that it is a radio interference resistor for AM radios. Of course, it's not likely that's what it's for. Some more educated posts say it's associated with the coils... due to the high voltage they generate. It seems like older cars with a single coil pack have this attached to it. I've even seen them included with cam position sensors for sale on Ebay.

On my car, to be absolutely honest, I have no idea where it came from. I'm not even sure it's a normal part of the GT wiring harness, as over the years, and as I've replaced my harness, I've always had to solder it onto the place it would go on the harness. I wish I could remember better... as I got my GT wiring harness brand new from the dealer back when they were still reasonably priced. I don't remember what was on the original GT harness, but it's clear that I cut off whatever came on it and soldered the one in the attached picture to it. Also, when I look up the part, there is the actual condenser/resistor that bolts onto the block, but the other end has a square, gray plug. It looks like I cut that plug off and soldered it directly to the GT wiring harness.

There are so many random (minor) things I've had to do get the GT harness to work with the 5.4L 3v, I just can't keep track. Would someone mind taking a picture of that piece on their 05-09 GT so I can see what it should be? My guess is that the 4.6L harness has a plug that cannot connect to the 5.4L 3v block, so I clipped it off and used the resistor from an F150 harness.

 

[05stroker]

IIRC that noise suppression unit is at the end of the red + wire to the coils on a 05 up harness. I have the wiring diagrams at home but won't be there till Saturday night.

 

[swflastang05]

Yes those blocks are supposed to bolt to the front of the motor, the right side is attached to the top, inner timing cover bolt (the bolt has an extra stud and nut on it for that purpose) and connects to the harness on that side via the gray plug, the left side block IIRC attaches to one of the alternator bracket bolts, and also connects to that harness on that side via the gray plug. Sorry I don't have any pics at the moment..

 

[sportinawoody]

don't mind the t-tap. i pulled voltage there for my AFX.
heres the passengerside


and the driverside



and some candy

 

[Flapjack]

Thanks for the description and pics (including the eye candy, lol).

So, theoretically, how would a car behave if one of those were not hooked up at all?

 

[sportinawoody]

should kill the whole bank