One More #8 Kids!

[302]

Dumb question: When you guys speak of global tuning do you mean adding timing across the whole band as in using the handheld to add timing and not having a tuner do it?

 

[DIB5.0]

Just adding my .02. I know in a previous thread it was said that all the failed pistons "appear" to be damaged in the same spot, thus giving some credit to a piston problem. But this is highly unlikely because it is only the #8 cyl. Now the "tune" finger pointing has some credit as there have been rumors of stock cars failing but no owners have stepped up. The boosted cars have been ok because of more fuel and less timing. So considering all what we do know my theory is this, the tunes that are having problems are the ones using global spark and fuel trims. There is not a factory "defect" as much as a factory weak point in the cooling of the #8 cyl as in the 03 cobras. In stock trim the car operates and performs as it should for 100k miles under warranty. When using global tuning the #8 cyl gets hotter than all the rest. If by design it runs hotter and receives the same amount of fuel with global tuning, minor detonation will occur which over time leads to failure. This could be compounded by a specific "hot spot" in the cyl wall because of less cooling (by design) thus making all the failures appear visually similar. For my theory data logging wouldn't be much help unless you can pin point a specific cyl to look at. I also wonder if anyone has checked the temp of the #8 cyl header tube to see if it is any hotter after spirited driving. If this is the case then Ford is in no way responsible to fix a "weak" point found with a tuned car. It would be on us as mod enthusiast to design something better to suit our needs. It would be no different the a 3V owner crying Ford won't replace my rods after I installed a SC and 12 lbs of boost. Again guys it's just 1 man's theory to consider.

BTW I'm enjoying the shit out of my 2011 4v and I have zero concerns about my #8 piston; of course it's a 2011 GT500 ..... Now if I can just get my 1-2 shift straightened out it would be a perfect world!

This looks like the same thing Eric from Brook Speed was saying.

 

[BruceH]

Dumb question: When you guys speak of global tuning do you mean adding timing across the whole band as in using the handheld to add timing and not having a tuner do it?

Global timing adds to all rpm and load cells or "across the board". It can be done via the handheld or in the tune.

 

[302]

Global timing adds to all rpm and load cells or "across the board". It can be done via the handheld or in the tune.

Ok thanks, thats what i was asking.

 

[pacettr]

Just adding my .02. I know in a previous thread it was said that all the failed pistons "appear" to be damaged in the same spot, thus giving some credit to a piston problem. But this is highly unlikely because it is only the #8 cyl. Now the "tune" finger pointing has some credit as there have been rumors of stock cars failing but no owners have stepped up. The boosted cars have been ok because of more fuel and less timing. So considering all what we do know my theory is this, the tunes that are having problems are the ones using global spark and fuel trims. There is not a factory "defect" as much as a factory weak point in the cooling of the #8 cyl as in the 03 cobras. In stock trim the car operates and performs as it should for 100k miles under warranty. When using global tuning the #8 cyl gets hotter than all the rest. If by design it runs hotter and receives the same amount of fuel with global tuning, minor detonation will occur which over time leads to failure. This could be compounded by a specific "hot spot" in the cyl wall because of less cooling (by design) thus making all the failures appear visually similar. For my theory data logging wouldn't be much help unless you can pin point a specific cyl to look at. I also wonder if anyone has checked the temp of the #8 cyl header tube to see if it is any hotter after spirited driving. If this is the case then Ford is in no way responsible to fix a "weak" point found with a tuned car. It would be on us as mod enthusiast to design something better to suit our needs. It would be no different the a 3V owner crying Ford won't replace my rods after I installed a SC and 12 lbs of boost. Again guys it's just 1 man's theory to consider.

BTW I'm enjoying the shit out of my 2011 4v and I have zero concerns about my #8 piston; of course it's a 2011 GT500 ..... Now if I can just get my 1-2 shift straightened out it would be a perfect world!

Great post

 

[19COBRA93]

Great post, and I agree whole heartedly.

 

[Mishri]

Batch of pistons? Do they come in a crate like eggs and can i get them at the grocery store??? derpy derp...

yes, infact they do. I saw a pic of the pistons how they come in, very much like a crate of eggs.

but... no.. I think the tuners are blowing up our engines on purpose so we rebuild bigger/stronger

now the question is... which tuner do I want to destroy my piston with? hmmmz... just ordered 4.10s, o/r X and boss intake manifold.. leaning towards livernois.


also so far I've only seen people reporting #8 blowing on a 93 tune, has anyone seen any other type of tune with the issue? 91? 87?

I'm tempted to order an 87 tune and run 91.. also timing shouldnt be too far advanced on the 87.

and as people keep bringing up, Terminators had some issues with tuning when they were new too. Early adopters have to pay to play. I don't regret selling my 3valve at all.

 

[KungFuHamster]

i went back and re-read the article 5.0 Mustang detailing the creation of the new 5.0 and it said that even coolant distribution was one of the primary goals.

i guess that goal wasnt met.

 

[19COBRA93]

i went back and re-read the article 5.0 Mustang detailing the creation of the new 5.0 and it said that even coolant distribution was one of the primary goals.

i guess that goal wasnt met.

Sounds like it. I had a goal of being debt free this year. I didn't quite get there.

 

[AMChrisRose]

Of course 93 tunes are the culprit... it's premium fuel tunes that advance timing enough to where bad gas, heat and incorrect tuning methods can cause issues.

Global timing is just ONE way that a cylinder #8 issue can occur, not the sole cause. Knock sensor calibration, fueling, global advance, all play a part in either keeping this issue from coming up or not protecting against it and leading to damage.

There are tuners out there who have and are still, to this day, sending out NINE degrees global advance and hoping the knock sensors yank it out, and they've only had one or two failures.

Point is, this issue can't be summed up into one value, but the quality of the entire calibration itself. Whether or not there's an underlying issue or not (which there likely could be) does not matter if it can be prevented through tuning practices.

 

[stkjock]

Chris,

is the software/hardware capable of adjusting spark/fuel on a single cyl? I as as I was talking to a racer friend with a MSD set up and he was telling me on his he can adjust timing/spark for each cyl (not fuel as it's a carb set up)

 

[AMChrisRose]

Chris,

is the software/hardware capable of adjusting spark/fuel on a single cyl? I as as I was talking to a racer friend with a MSD set up and he was telling me on his he can adjust timing/spark for each cyl (not fuel as it's a carb set up)

There's different logic within the PCM that allows you to adjust different elements of both spark and fueling within each cylinder or globally.

 

[stkjock]

so are you aware are any tuners using that ability to keep the 1-7 cyls at a different spark/timing then #8 to increase the margin of error? seems like a logical thing to me ( I do realize there could be many reasons that type of adjustment would not work)

 

[AMChrisRose]

so are you aware are any tuners using that ability to keep the 1-7 cyls at a different spark/timing then #8 to increase the margin of error? seems like a logical thing to me ( I do realize there could be many reasons that type of adjustment would not work)

I was told that Ford had started adding fuel to cylinder 8 in Job 2. That, mixed with careful tuning and quality control, and everything should be fine.

But yes, this is the logical thing to do and I think between global/individual knock logic and what Ford has done in Job 2, it set a good base for the aftermarket to CAREFULLY modify.

 

[302]

So what about job 1 cars? Are they SOL, or do they need to get another calibration from ford?

 

[stkjock]

Thanks Chris

 

[fdjizm]

So #8 definitely runs the hottest? coolant routing issue?

 

[white05gt]

I'm waiting for someone to install widebands and/or egt probes for all 8 cylinders to see just what is going on.

 

[19COBRA93]

So what about job 1 cars? Are they SOL, or do they need to get another calibration from ford?

Based on that information, there should be a PCM update available through Ford. Whatever changes/alterations through programming Ford did in job 2, there should be a calibration upadate available for the job 1 cars. I'll have to check Monday to see if any TSB's have been issued or updates available.

 

[302]

Based on that information, there should be a PCM update available through Ford. Whatever changes/alterations through programming Ford did in job 2, there should be a calibration upadate available for the job 1 cars. I'll have to check Monday to see if any TSB's have been issued or updates available.

Thanks. If you need me to i can PM You my vin, but my build date is 6/10. Most TSB's concerning flashing that i have noticed have been 5/10 cars though.