One More #8 Kids!

[kyoshosp2]

I talked to someone yesterday about this arbitration... i traded in my 2011 manual cause it finally pissed me off for 3rd time not going in gear anymore.. so i traded it and took an 8k loss . got an 2012 auto and in 2 weeks has tranny fluid all over.. and its not the overflow tube.. it is bone stock.. im just wondering if i can get them to pony up for the first car since thats the reason i finally traded it.. then get tranny probs again??

 

[linnE]

I've been out of the car business for 10 years now but that sure sounds like a Lemon Law situation Eric.

 

[05mustang_TT_charged]

Eric just stick a 4R70W in there and be done.

 

[kyoshosp2]

Im saying a Z06 lol...

 

[302]

I talked to someone yesterday about this arbitration... i traded in my 2011 manual cause it finally pissed me off for 3rd time not going in gear anymore.. so i traded it and took an 8k loss . got an 2012 auto and in 2 weeks has tranny fluid all over.. and its not the overflow tube.. it is bone stock.. im just wondering if i can get them to pony up for the first car since thats the reason i finally traded it.. then get tranny probs again??

That's some bullshit. I would be pissed about that one, but does ford have a TSB out for that or what?

 

[pacettr]

I talked to someone yesterday about this arbitration... i traded in my 2011 manual cause it finally pissed me off for 3rd time not going in gear anymore.. so i traded it and took an 8k loss . got an 2012 auto and in 2 weeks has tranny fluid all over.. and its not the overflow tube.. it is bone stock.. im just wondering if i can get them to pony up for the first car since thats the reason i finally traded it.. then get tranny probs again??

I've been out of the car business for 10 years now but that sure sounds like a Lemon Law situation Eric.

http://www.carlemon.com/lemon/LA_LemonGuide.html

at least four repair visits to correct the same malfunction during the warranty period or within one year of delivery of the vehicle; or if the vehicle has been out of service for repair for a combined total of at least 30 days during the same period. If the defect still exists, the manufacturer shall replace the lemon with a new vehicle or give a full refund.

However, a buyer must first use the free mediation or arbitration procedures that the manufacturer has set up to deal with complaints. In mediation, the manufacturer tries to satisfy the customer through a settlement. If the customer is not satisfied, the two parties will proceed to the second step, arbitration. Here an impartial third party will make a decision without the intervention of lawyers. Consumers should be prepared for arbitration procedures by keeping all receipts for car maintenance and repairs, letters from mechanics, and all maintenance records on the vehicle.

 

[MikeVistaBlue06]

Damn, not good. Friend of mine blew his (Bama Tune) after doing a 60-160 pull. Blew when he was slowing down after the pull (engine down revving)

Interesting observation that the engine was slowing down when it happened. Like what happens when you decel in real life on the road.

You know, one of the things I got explained to me when I bought my 2011 Lincoln MKS, is that Ford has introduced a new fuel saving strategy so that when you lift, it cuts the fuel completely OFF. I can feel it do it in my MKS. This car of mine has the 3.7 which is basically 3/4 of the 5.0... It is called: Aggressive Deceleration Fuel Shut-Off (ADFSO)

Just a thought...as it is leaning down maybe that is what causes the detonation, especially at high rpm. One thing to remember is that gasoline COOLS the combustion chamber as it evaporates. Take it away, and that chamber will run hotter.

Maybe someone ought to look at the code and see if it cuts the fuel to all injectors or staggers them. If it staggers them, then maybe #8 comes up in the sequence too much as having the fuel cut. OR, if it cuts it completely, then maybe someone can re-write this sequence to add a bit of fuel like they did before they implemented this strategy.

I am thinking about what is causing this shit and that could be from:

1. Complete starvation of fuel (like when lifting due to this ADFSO)--wonder what the fuel pressure looks like at this moment in time??? Does it kill the signal to the injectors OR to the fuel pump???
2. #8 runs hotter due to where it is in the car (airflow around it) and/or how the cooling water flows around it.
3. Vapor lock around cylinder #8's fuel rail--again heat related
4. Too much timing (but why aren't the rest of the cylinders affected?)
5. Low fuel pressure (which I tried to explain wrt the U shaped fuel rail but no one would listen or believe me)
6. A combo of 1-5.

BTW, how many of you seen a race car (oval track) toast a piston when they run out of fuel......I think this new fuel strategy could be one of the knobs here...that also lines up with people saying they were just tooling around not hossing it and it blew.

HTH

Mike

PS: As a good Engineer should do: DATA: http://www.blueovalforums.com/forums/index.php?/topic/27681-aggressive-deceleration-fuel-shut-off/

http://corporate.ford.com/microsites/sustainability-report-2010-11/issues-climate-plan-economy

..and as Foghorn Leghorn would say, "The COOP-DE-GRACE," http://www.allfordmustangs.com/forums/2011-mustang-talk/214614-valid-info-new-2011-mustang.html

 

[01yellerCobra]

Interesting observation that the engine was slowing down when it happened. Like what happens when you decel in real life on the road.

You know, one of the things I got explained to me when I bought my 2011 Lincoln MKS, is that Ford has introduced a new fuel saving strategy so that when you lift, it cuts the fuel completely OFF. I can feel it do it in my MKS. This car of mine has the 3.7 which is basically 3/4 of the 5.0... It is called: Aggressive Deceleration Fuel Shut-Off (ADFSO)

That's been around since OBD II came out. Although it was called Coasting Fuel Shut Off. It's the same thing though. When you decel all the injectors shut off. If you have a wideband you can tell when it happens because it reads full lean.

 

[jsnyng]

... If you have a wideband you can tell when it happens because it reads full lean.

Yep. I've got Aeroforce Interceptors on my '11GT, and if I lift the A/F reading goes to 29.29 which is essentially as high as the A/F gauge will read. Just a tiny blip of the throttle and you'll see it dump a lot of fuel and be in the 12's for just a second before going back to 14.4-14.6.

 

[Fallenauthority]

Interesting observation that the engine was slowing down when it happened. Like what happens when you decel in real life on the road.

You know, one of the things I got explained to me when I bought my 2011 Lincoln MKS, is that Ford has introduced a new fuel saving strategy so that when you lift, it cuts the fuel completely OFF. I can feel it do it in my MKS. This car of mine has the 3.7 which is basically 3/4 of the 5.0... It is called: Aggressive Deceleration Fuel Shut-Off (ADFSO)

Just a thought...as it is leaning down maybe that is what causes the detonation, especially at high rpm. One thing to remember is that gasoline COOLS the combustion chamber as it evaporates. Take it away, and that chamber will run hotter.

Maybe someone ought to look at the code and see if it cuts the fuel to all injectors or staggers them. If it staggers them, then maybe #8 comes up in the sequence too much as having the fuel cut. OR, if it cuts it completely, then maybe someone can re-write this sequence to add a bit of fuel like they did before they implemented this strategy.

I am thinking about what is causing this shit and that could be from:

1. Complete starvation of fuel (like when lifting due to this ADFSO)--wonder what the fuel pressure looks like at this moment in time??? Does it kill the signal to the injectors OR to the fuel pump???
2. #8 runs hotter due to where it is in the car (airflow around it) and/or how the cooling water flows around it.
3. Vapor lock around cylinder #8's fuel rail--again heat related
4. Too much timing (but why aren't the rest of the cylinders affected?)
5. Low fuel pressure (which I tried to explain wrt the U shaped fuel rail but no one would listen or believe me)
6. A combo of 1-5.

BTW, how many of you seen a race car (oval track) toast a piston when they run out of fuel......I think this new fuel strategy could be one of the knobs here...that also lines up with people saying they were just tooling around not hossing it and it blew.

HTH

Mike

PS: As a good Engineer should do: DATA: http://www.blueovalforums.com/forums/index.php?/topic/27681-aggressive-deceleration-fuel-shut-off/

http://corporate.ford.com/microsites/sustainability-report-2010-11/issues-climate-plan-economy

..and as Foghorn Leghorn would say, "The COOP-DE-GRACE," http://www.allfordmustangs.com/forums/2011-mustang-talk/214614-valid-info-new-2011-mustang.html

Every car I have seen with a wideband will go full lean on decel, including my old 96 Talon. My 3v does it too. I think you are chasing a dead lead here.

 

[Black 5.0]

I guess I should feel more adept and knowledgeable about the injectors cutting fuel during decel/coasting. I've was in the business for 35+ years. However, it was never a cosideration as far as being a problem like is being suggested so it never crossed my mind.

I will have to look up what factors are invovled in protecting the engine while the fuel is cut off to the cylinders. Our 5.0s have pretty decent cooling around the heads and through the block, not to mention the oil cooling spray the pistons get that reduces heat. That, in itself, reduces overall heat. The other thing though is with no fuel going to the cylinder, you still get air being compressed which creates heat. So, how is that resolved? Maybe it isn't. Maybe the short time the engine is in decel/coast, it doesn't matter.

I have read quite a bit about these engines and have not come across any issue being brought up or resolved dealing with a ADFSO senario.

 

[Fallenauthority]

Although air being compressed does create heat, it creates far less heat than air/fuel being combusted. The air rushing through the motor would actually help cool it. Plus coolant is still pumping which manages heat as well.

I guess I should feel more adept and knowledgeable about the injectors cutting fuel during decel/coasting. I've was in the business for 35+ years. However, it was never a cosideration as far as being a problem like is being suggested so it never crossed my mind.

I will have to look up what factors are invovled in protecting the engine while the fuel is cut off to the cylinders. Our 5.0s have pretty decent cooling around the heads and through the block, not to mention the oil cooling spray the pistons get that reduces heat. That, in itself, reduces overall heat. The other thing though is with no fuel going to the cylinder, you still get air being compressed which creates heat. So, how is that resolved? Maybe it isn't. Maybe the short time the engine is in decel/coast, it doesn't matter.

I have read quite a bit about these engines and have not come across any issue being brought up or resolved dealing with a ADFSO senario.

 

[Black 5.0]

Although air being compressed does create heat, it creates far less heat than air/fuel being combusted. The air rushing through the motor would actually help cool it. Plus coolant is still pumping which manages heat as well.

I was certain of that but, had to bring it up as that's pretty much all you have left when the injectors are cut off. That should take care of all the particulars invovled in whether or not cutting the fuel in a coast/decel situation may have merit in causing the number 8 issue.

Based on the fact that that type of system has been used for so long, even with a custom tune, IMO, would not contribute to the #8s fizzling. I do believe that it is a A/F issue combined with a radical change in timing though. That is where the question of fuel starvation lyes I believe. This is where datalogging this particular issue would be very useful. But, unless you can be datalogging when the problem happens, you're not going to see it anytime soon.

 

[MikeVistaBlue06]

Every car I have seen with a wideband will go full lean on decel, including my old 96 Talon. My 3v does it too. I think you are chasing a dead lead here.

Perhaps. I wonder however if the injectors didn't spit a bit of fuel to keep things happy and also, I know now for a fact with my 2011 MKS that when I lift off the gas it starts slowing down; I can feel the drag. The one thing that is different with this new fuel saving routine, with an automatic transmission, is that the torque converter does not unlock and that keeps the rpms up. Older cars with automatics would unlock, the rpms drop, and the transmission would let the engine freewheel so to speak. My MKS feels just like I've dropped it down a couple of gears and dropped the clutch when I lift.

1. Are these cars that are blowing all automatics?

As I mentioned about an old 86 Ford I had, it had a speed density wet body (throttle body) fuel injection system and when the MAP sensor saw high vacuum along with the TPS being closed, it knew to cut the fuel, but it did not cut it out completely. The newer systems like we have are mass airflow systems so they don't have MAP sensors, but they do have airflow and temperature sensors to compute how much air is going into the engine.

That's been around since OBD II came out. Although it was called Coasting Fuel Shut Off. It's the same thing though. When you decel all the injectors shut off. If you have a wideband you can tell when it happens because it reads full lean.

(BTW, my old Ford had EEC-IV if I recall).

Yep. I've got Aeroforce Interceptors on my '11GT, and if I lift the A/F reading goes to 29.29 which is essentially as high as the A/F gauge will read. Just a tiny blip of the throttle and you'll see it dump a lot of fuel and be in the 12's for just a second before going back to 14.4-14.6.

What if the A/F is actually higher than 29.29 or greater than full lean? All your gauge is telling you is that you've hit the leanest it can measure. It may be 1000:1 for all real purposes. Just ask the Apollo 13 Astronauts about the cryogenic tank that had a thermometer that read up to 80F but they turned one on to boil out all of the LOX and it heated up to 1000F but the thermometer said it was 80F...that was the tank that blew up in their spacecraft!

I think this new ADFSO is cutting the fuel completely out. So instead of going full lean as the gauge may indicate it is going SUPER lean.

Gasoline is a coolant too. It pulls heat to evaporate from a liquid to a gas. The latent heat of vaporization it is called. That is why when you get gas or alcohol on your hand it feels cool. It is pulling heat to in order to evaporate. Squirted into a cylinder, it will draw heat.

Like I said in the tech thread. Don't assume this isn't it. Now it could well be not it, but until it is researched and understood as to exactly what ADFSO does now that older cars didn't have, I would not discount it.

One more thought: these computers today are a helluva lot faster at analyzing and doing things the older ones did. So something that may have lagged a second or 2 can now be done in milli, micro, or hell even nanoseconds. Remember older cars had throttle cables that worked the butterflies and that in turn worked the TPS. Now you don't need a TPS because you can get an instant reading on how far the gas is mashed right off the gas pedal since it is electric. That said, so what time it used to take the computer to lean out the system on decel may now happen in the fraction of a heartbeat! So you're going full blast and lift off the gas the A/F goes from 11:1 to 1000:1 in a nanosecond!

HTH

Mike

 

[MikeVistaBlue06]

Is there anyway in the world I could get an Excel file posted up here to show folks what a cause map looks like so this problem could be approached from that standpoint? It works very well when you have multiple issues causing failures.

www.thinkreliability.com if you want to see what one looks like.

 

[01yellerCobra]

When the OBD II cars go into coast it completely shuts the fuel injectors off. That's something I learned when I started tuning. It causes the decel drag that you're feeling in your MKS. It comes up quite a bit in the PRP forums. I also know that when our 98 Mountaineer is deceling I can tell when it enters CFSO.

Don't the F-150's have some sort of fail safe cooling that pumps air through the motor should the cooling system fail?

 

[Fallenauthority]

No they are like the s197 when it overheats it shuts off a few cylinders to pump air through the engine. Its like a fail safe thing.

When the OBD II cars go into coast it completely shuts the fuel injectors off. That's something I learned when I started tuning. It causes the decel drag that you're feeling in your MKS. It comes up quite a bit in the PRP forums. I also know that when our 98 Mountaineer is deceling I can tell when it enters CFSO.

Don't the F-150's have some sort of fail safe cooling that pumps air through the motor should the cooling system fail?

 

[MikeVistaBlue06]

When the OBD II cars go into coast it completely shuts the fuel injectors off. That's something I learned when I started tuning. It causes the decel drag that you're feeling in your MKS. It comes up quite a bit in the PRP forums. I also know that when our 98 Mountaineer is deceling I can tell when it enters CFSO.

Don't the F-150's have some sort of fail safe cooling that pumps air through the motor should the cooling system fail?

I had a 2007 MKZ that should have behaved similarly, right? It didn't. The torque converter did not stay locked when you lifted. The RPM would drop below 1000 regardless of the speed I was doing.

On this new MKS, I can be doing 75mph @ 2000rpm, lift off the gas and the rpms will stay around 1800ish and slowly drop as I slow down. So this in itself is causing to motor to rev higher.

It would be interesting to get someone who knows this AFDSO in intricate detail to talk about it to us.

HTH

Mike