Chris whiskey, if your control arm relocator does make it through the board and approved, make sure you get some that will work with stock control arms in all the holes. the BMR only worked on the last set with the stock control arms and it made my car pretty unhappy. very oversteery in then understeer like hell coming out. aftermarket LCA's that fit the relocators set to higher up the car drove much better and gained a lot more traction.
I think you may have a shot at the bracket as a solid axle allowance, i'm pretty sure there is no way in hell they will give you the arms...
Pre-Nationals Test'n'Tune and Solo Points Event #5
Project Tilty update time! Before we begin I'd like to thank Dave Whitworth for allowing himself to be bribed into driving my car for the points event! I don't know why anyone would want to do that, since you know, "high" HP V8 powered cars + street tires = instant failure. I also want to thank Neal Tovsen, not only for allowing me to drive his E36 but for driving Project Tilty at the test'n'tune. Both of you guys provided some valuable insight into the car's future and the car's potential. My only regret is that Dave didn't get a fair shot at a balanced car and I'll get more into that later.
The Test'n'Tune:
So I set forth to test some things on my car before Nationals that I hoped would make a substantial difference, you know things like tire pressures, sway bar settings and in general get some seat time in the car. Upon arrival to the Test'n'Tune I realized I forgot to bump up tire pressures to work them down. A quick drive to the nearby gas station should have cured that issue but their air hose was mysteriously gone so I had to deal with the tire pressures which were at 31 PSI front and 27 PSI rear.
One of the things I wanted to do was to dial out some of the oversteer I was having at the Midwest Divisional Championship that made the car so hard to put power down with so I wanted to mess with swaybar settings. It was plenty hot out, plenty humid out, and well, I only tested one other swaybar setting. The front bar got moved to full stiff and I dropped nearly a half second of time on the course and the rear end was glued enough to the ground to put power down but not so much that the car wouldn't rotate.
At this point I was basically done testing and tuning the car and Neal Tovsen and I flipped rides. I ran about .75 seconds off his fastest time in his BMW and he ran .6 seconds off his fastest time in his BMW in MY Mustang!!!!!!!!! Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaat? His data showed that he was leaving time on course in his BMW to the tune of about .4 of a second so Project Tilty being 1 second off a BMW with a good driver was still a bit of a shock but a reasonably good sign? More importantly was that he felt the car was very well balanced and he was shocked that it had as much grip as it had. He felt the cars had something to show an Evo in STU.
After what seemed like 15 runs, I called it quits and drove home so I could flip the tires front to rear, fill them up with air again (but maintained that same 4 PSI split) and come back the next morning for the actual event.
Solo Points #5:
Sunday was starting out to be a good day with a good nights sleep, reasonable morning temps (which didn't hold through the day), and a co-drive to look forward to! Dave Whitworth would be meeting me in Lincoln to suffer an agonizing day of co-driving with the most spaztastic and uninteresting person in Lincoln (me ) and hopefully between the two of us we could learn something new. I know I got some pretty good tips of things I've been feeling since the start of the season in terms of spring rates and the likes.
The course would be a most of the Test'n'Tune course run backwards with the finish changed up. The course had a lot of critical braking points in it that if you got on the brakes too early or too late you'd lose time so this was GREAT practice for braking correctly. I think I'm starting to get a feel for the car's grip level and there are some "got ya!" course design elements I'm getting more comfortable with that are really separating my times from those who are faster when done wrong.
The course itself was designed, in a hurry, by one of our top drivers who just so happens to be driving a Miata so the course had a decent amount of Miata friendly elements (like the 4 slaloms) and some digs to give the power guys a place to use the power to pull them out of the corner. I'll get the map up later and update this post.
Run #1: After moving the swaybar to full stiff, I expected the car to be pretty well balanced but in reality the car was pushy, big time pushy. I did my best to drive around it and cracked out a 63.356 but snagged a cone in the second major turn around (greater than 90º left hand turn) which pulled the time to a 65.356.
Dave's run #1: Dave basically confirmed what I had observed. The swaybar change added way too much to the rear end of the car and it was plowing like a dump truck. We tried some tire pressure changes, bringing the fronts down and letting the rears climb for my next run. His time was a 65.283 but he clipped a cone for a 67.283.
Run #2: The tire pressure change made a substantial difference in the balance but it was still pushing in the high speed stuff. We would change the front tire pressure down again and let the rears continue to climb. The pressures started at 35/30 and were now at 31/32. I managed to make this a clean run and came in with a 63.355 (pretty dang consistent time wise, a theme for the whole day believe it or not).
Dave's run #2: Dave came in with a 63.414 but dirty again, this time with two cones for a 67.414. He tried explaining a little to me about how the car in the slaloms felt like he had to wait for the fronts to do all the work and that the rear was just too planted. He continued on saying that the car would slalom just fine but the corner after the fronts were hot enough that they would be just a touch greasy and the wouldn't have the same grip as it did in the slalom. We stabilized the pressures at 31 front, 33 rear and upped the rear rebound a quarter turn.
Run #3: The car felt better again, the combination of a touch more rear rebound and the slightly higher rear PSI helped balance the car out some but it was still just a touch pushy. The car pulled in with a 63.341 (see, I told you I was consistent!) clean but it wasn't enough to hold me in third place. Shawn in a Hype Argh came in just a little faster on his third run with a 63.196 and kicked me back to fourth.
Dave's run #3: Dave confirmed that the car was getting closer to where it needed to be but it still required making the front do all the work and it was most noticeable in the slaloms. We upped the rear rebound another quarter turn and bled the fronts down to 31 PSI and the rears stabilized at 33 PSI and didn't climb from there. This run came in with a 63.367.
Run #4: The final run, with the changes we had made before this run, the goal was to go out and get a solid fast time. Neal Tovsen drove the car the day before and ran a pretty solid time that wasn't far off his own time so I know the car can be faster. While in the line waiting to go I recapped the places where I felt like I was losing time and set forth to correct those issues. About the time I got done with the second slalom the fronts were getting hot again and I entered the fast left hand sweeper just a touch fast, started to push and mid corner lifted. Well, in hindsight I should have just stayed in the throttle because when I lifted the fronts grabbed traction and I lunched the apex cone. I pulled into the finish with a 62.555 but had managed to find another cone somewhere on course. The run went down as a 66.555 with those two cones.
Dave's run #4: Dave's final run ran with the same settings that I had on my final run and once again, he confirmed that the car felt better but just simply had too much rear grip. He hypothesized that the torque arm rear setup was working a touch too well. He suggested running some stiffer springs in the rear to help compensate and was pretty adamant about not adding any more bar (I do have a Strano/Hellwigg 25mm rear adjustable bar I could throw on) but spring instead. The car as a whole could use some stiffer spring rates so I will be looking into that for next season. This run he came in with a 63.498 and didn't improve. He would finish fifth and I finished fourth of 6 in STX.
Recap: At the test'n'tune I moved the front swaybar to the stiffest setting which I think contributed to the rather planted ass end feel that the car had. Neal managed to ring in a pretty good time in my car compared to his own and hypothesized the car was only a second and change off pace but the car was balanced. He also had some encouraging words about the cars in STU.
At the actual event, the car was pushy, and pushy in places it wasn't pushy at the test'n'tune. The overal conditions were similar both days, hot, humid and in general not a very nice day to autocross. Dave and I finished fifth and fourth (respectively) in STX and nineteenth and eighteenth overall of 74. Neal Tovsen took first in PAX and first in class. The split between myself and Neal was a little over 3 seconds.
What's next? What's next is Nationals and for Nationals I have moved the front bar back to the middle position. The front bar at full stiff did not make the tires work any better, did not decrease body roll significantly and added a ton of push to the car. I would rather work around the throttle oversteer (which probably wont be present at Nationals, who knows since the car itself isn't consistent between events) than deal with terminal push. Loose is faster than push, supposedly. I'm not changing anything else before Nationals. I'm supposed to be scheduled for the Evo T'n'T on Sunday so hopefully I can get some valuable seat time as well as a little bit of instruction if any of those guys are willing to help me out!
For next year, I plan on investigating stiffer springs, not just stiffer in the rear, but stiffer all around. The car on 265/40/18 RS3's has plenty of body roll. I'm thinking about 525 front, and 250 or 275 rear and I hope that the valving currently on the GC valved dampers can handle those spring rates. I also hope those spring rates strike a reasonable compromise between ride comfort and flatter cornering. Next year the plan is wheels/tires (again...) for STU, diff, harness bar and harnesses and if the budget permits, seats. Basically in that order. I don't want to add power to the car just yet. I want power to basically be the last thing the car gets and I'm willing to bet that if I get the diff in next year it will be a good year. The wheels will be the 18x10.5 Enkei PF01 (can't mess with a good looking car! ) that Sam sells that fit square. I just hope they fit well enough that I can drive to and from the events with them on. The tires will probably be 285 wide RS3's unless a better tire is found between now and then. The ZII's don't have a 285/35/18 tire and only a 285/30/18 which is TOO SHORT. Heck, a 285/35/18 is still too short but it's at least workable. The diff is still a Torsen T2R as planned.
I'd recommend going that stiff or even stiffer on the springs, and using the bigger rear bar. I had 500 lb coil overs up front, and 500 lb conventional rears (250 lb wheel rate) on a 2940 lb Fox in SM, and it was still reasonably comfortable on the street. And it was faster than when I had it on 400/400 springs.
I've also got a 25mm Hellwig bar on the rear of my current 06 'vert, set on full stiff, with a Strano front bar on the middle setting. I like the balance, but I tend to like a slightly loose car. I do have much softer springs than even your current ones, and more weight, but I think you should strongly consider putting that big rear bar to work.
I'd recommend going that stiff or even stiffer on the springs, and using the bigger rear bar. I had 500 lb coil overs up front, and 500 lb conventional rears (250 lb wheel rate) on a 2940 lb Fox in SM, and it was still reasonably comfortable on the street. And it was faster than when I had it on 400/400 springs.
I've also got a 25mm Hellwig bar on the rear of my current 06 'vert, set on full stiff, with a Strano front bar on the middle setting. I like the balance, but I tend to like a slightly loose car. I do have much softer springs than even your current ones, and more weight, but I think you should strongly consider putting that big rear bar to work.
I have a lot of rear roll stiffness built into the rear geometry through the high rear roll center. My rear roll center is higher than a PHB would be in the "OEM" configuration. My observation is that with the front bar in the middle position the car throttle oversteers quite easily. I'll be double checking that this weekend. Who knows what will happen with the stiffer springs though.
It's the update you all probably haven't been looking for. I mean honestly, who reads these things anyway? Nationals is finally here and finally gone and what the experience it has been. I met a lot of new faces, saw some friends I had made earlier in the year and happened to autocross in the process. I have to say that if you have never been to Nationals, by all means come for the cone carving but prepare yourself for all the stuff that happens in the paddock too because a lot of the fun is hanging out with your fellow competitors and I would argue that that is the sole reason many people show up to Nationals! I would also like to say that I wish things worked out better for me scheduling wise so I could have been down there later at night but my brother's cats are very temperamental and the one requires daily eye drops and he happened to choose this week to go on vacation. Next year I'm going to tell him to pound sand so I can catch all the excitement in the paddock because compared to the racing, I think the paddock stuff is more fun!
Before we begin I thought I should just recap on what is on the car so people can judge for themselves what the "prep level" of the car is:
Ground Control Coilovers (custom valved Koni singles) 440lbs/in F, 200lbs/in R
Ground Control Street camber plates (-3.0º camber, -0.10º Toe out, +7.0º Caster)
Strano 35mm front bar (middle position)
Stock 20mm rear bar
Fays2 Watts link (top bolt hole)
Cortex Racing Torque Arm
Freshly rebuilt Traction-Lok (rebuilt before Mid Div 3 ish weekends ago)
Car weighs in around 3425lbs at 1/8t h of gas
Enkei PF01, 18x9, ET45 ~19lbs
Hankook Ventus RS3 in 265/40/18
It doesn't look like much but suspension wise the only allowances not being taken advantage of are a larger rear swaybar and poly bushings at every suspension component. The only thing left for the car by my count (please correct me if I'm wrong) is Diff (largest time shaver left) Seats, harnesses and bar, battery, exhaust, CAI+Tune, brakes and poly suspension bushings in the front lower control arms (I have stock arms with poly bushings ready for the rear). The total weight removal is around 100lbs (I have 122lbs calculated but the Torsen T2R weighs more than the stock diff) which would put this car around 3325lbs. All things considered, that isn't too bad it's just a hell of a lot heavier than everything else in STX and STU. If I had a pile of money sitting around I could take probably another 20-30lbs off between much lighter wheels, much lighter coilovers, super light weight brakes and custom aluminum or titanium exhaust but I don't have a huge pile of money sitting around and this is my daily driver.
I'll let you all decide how "prepped" the car is. On to the Test'n'Tune stuffs!!!
Evo Test'n'Tune + Randall Prince's Test
On Sunday I drove down for the Evo Test'n'Tune hoping to get some valuable seat time with an instructor. I also set out to really gauge how the car was doing since at the previous event and test'n'tune I moved the swaybar full stiff and Dave Whitworth and myself fought push all day long. I moved the bar back to the middle position for this event since it didn't do much in the way of Chapman lawing the suspension into a more ideal portion of the camber curve.
On the test'n'tune course the car was a tad bit pushy so I played around with tire pressures some to better balance it out and the tire pressures fell to a rather even 31 PSI front and 31 PSI rear. The push was relegated to "on throttle push" and maybe a hair understeerish in steady state depending on how hot the tires got.
It was at that time that I asked an instructor to join me to see if I'm making some sort of driving errors. We spent probably 4 or 5 runs figuring out what types of mistakes I was making and the largest one seems to be turning too late on some key cones and over turning in some sweepers when I could let the car come out wider and carry more speed with less scrub. It was highly enlightening and I managed to crack out a 32.0XX on the test'n'tune course and having seen a few other STX cars run only a half second quicker I felt pretty good.
At this time the instructor jumped in and took a few runs in the car. He managed to get a 32.0XX as well and had some reassuring comments on the car setup. He felt the car was reasonably balanced, push on acceleration but a slight stab of the accelerator away from being correctable and he was surprised the car stuck as well with street tires. His major comment to me was to be more aggressive with the brake pedal since he felt like the car had two areas of superiority over the class, the brakes and the power. He said I had the power side down as I was getting on the gas way earlier than any other car in the class he has driven (he's a Corvette guy though, no it wasn't Sam Strano, I wish! ) and was shocked it put power down as well and as early as it did.
A few days later on Tuesday I came down again to meet up with Randall Prince to chat his ear off and in general be annoying while he's trying to get his car ready and it was nice to be able to chat with a member of the STAC although I'm not sure he felt the same way. More importantly he and I both wanted to see just where the car was at. He hopped in for 2 runs and managed a 32.1XX and a 32.5XX. His own BMW was only running .6 quicker on the practice course which was about where most of the other STX cars I had seen were at. I don't want to put words in his mouth but I think he was reasonably impressed with the car's capabilities, a few comments were made about wallowing (an indication of needing better valving on the Koni's and stiffer springs all around) but the car took a set and just gripped and went. Apparently the gas pedal isn't an instant "Fry the Tires" switch as was described by other drivers trying out Mustangs on street tires which is kind of what I was going for with my suspension choices. Anyway, I'll let him fill in the rest of the details (don't forget to push the comments to other forums).
At this point the only things really left to do were to hang out, watch the people on course, walk the course and run. I felt pretty good about the course going into Day 1 because it had places were the torque and power of a V8 should provide a reasonably large advantage and maybe get me higher standings to go into on Day 2.
2013 Solo Nationals Day 1:
Day 1 would start with pretty tolerable weather (heat 1 workers were probably loving it) so I decided to get another course walk in before we started to run Sam Strano's East course. I had picked out a few key cones, remembered a few of the Evo Course Walk cones and made a game plan to not suck!
This is the course map, it's better than my MSN paint drawings and a heck of a lot more self explanatory:
Some notables on this course: Lots of big braking points and not a lot of difficult transitions. Most of the stuff on the course was visually open so the keys were to get the right line and find the right braking points. The optional slalom wasn't but thankfully you were already "shut down" right before it so there was PLENTY of time and grip available to make the corner without fuss and get on the correct side of the slalom.
Run #1 came awfully soon after I got back from the course walk and boy was I glad. I've had the jitters all week going into this. I was confident and ready to strut (horrible pun) my stuff and this car's capabilities to the whole of the STX world and flaunt it in the face of those who I beat (just kidding on the flaunting part). Run #1 ended up coming in to a 98.9XX something... no way that could be right?! "There's been a timing error so a few cars are going to get re-runs." PHEW! A free look at this course at speed at a National event!
Run #2 didn't take much longer (5 minutes really) to get to and I had all the "mistakes" I made in my head from Run #1 to correct. Most of it was not fast enough/braking too soon. I managed to get all the way around the course and in the final slalom a downed cone, SLAM on the brakes and point to the downed cone... corner workers didn't even flinch... continue to point to the downed cone as I roll by it, FINALLY someone starts to go get the cone so I took off and finished the run. 88 something IIRC and ANOTHER re-run! Sweet! Two free looks at the course at speed, warm tires and a power friendly course?! WHAT COULD POSSIBLY GO WRONG?!
Run #3 is what went wrong, well, more specifically cone #502 in the optional slalom is what went wrong. The car felt great, hit all the braking points, got to the optional slalom and walloped #502... damn... it's ok, two more runs to go, clean it up and you'll be fine. I ran a 81.058 but the 2 second cone penalty brought it to 83.058.
Run #4 I got a little greedy on some parts of the course, particularly going into the back sweeper which was WOT from basically the start of the wallom before the sweeper to the braking point IN the sweeper, FAST! Like 63 MPH fast! I got down on the brakes and when I turned in the car 4 tire slid out wide and nearly took out the cones at the exit to the turn. I guess the tires are hot?! I made it all through the course, got back in and got the time slip and it was an 81.981 which was at least clean, but a second slower than the previous run. I think this time on solo live had me in like 43rd place or something. I was stoked! Not DFL!
Run #5 I set out to fix the errors in 4 by braking a touch sooner to get around that back sweeper's apex cone rather than slide out and nearly kill them and I did manage to make less errors on that run. I came in with an 81.257 which was a good solid run!
However... I didn't know this until the grid sheets came out after impound, but I coned the last two runs away. I honestly had no idea as I don't remember any cone hits on those runs?! That was a bit shitty feeling. While I was waiting for my work assignment I went and looked at the corner sheets, turns out I hit cone #502 in the optional slalom on EVERY SINGLE RUN. What the hell are the odds of that?! I guess I made cone #502 my bitch! Now I want that as a shirt! Hell, I may make a "fake" racing team out of it "Cone 502 Racing". How frustrating. This would pull me all the way down to 55th of 59 going into Day 2. Good news is that I was not last going into day 2!
2013 Solo Nationals Day 2:
Day 2 had a more positive start. I wasn't in last place going into day 2 and I had a course that was more my style of driving. It may not have been a particularly Mustang or power friendly course but the much smoother transitions rather than the hyper violent brake/gas/brake/gas fight that was Strano's course suits me better. Don't get me wrong, I rather enjoyed Strano's course but it isn't what I would call my driving strong suit. I'm not sure I have a true driving strong suit, but if I did it would be the smoother "road course like" transitional courses. Unfortunately that isn't what I would call a Mustang strong suit, being wide it's stable in transitions but it requires a lot of movement to get around cones in a transition. This is, of course, no surprise to anyone with half a brain so it definitely isn't a surprise to anyone reading this thread!
So here is the course map:
As has been stated the Speidel West course is a "speed maintenance" course... or at least more of one than Sam's course was. I personally think that all autocross courses are speed maintenance courses, the highest average speeds in every corner with the shortest distance always seems to do well. Certainly this course was less punishing of mistakes than Sam's course was which would literally hang you if you blew a braking zone. I'm glad I'm in the Nebraska Region and we will get to run these courses again because I REALLY REALLY REALLY want another shot at these courses.
I wouldn't be getting any re-runs on day 2, just 3 quick runs and the "band aid" had been ripped off and my first Nationals would be over. Of course the goal was to do the best I could and have a blast doing it.
Run #1 would be my fastest run, thankfully it was clean. It seems that my "tell yourself not to hit cones but be fast" routine before we started runs helped level my head enough to get at least one clean run in before the end of the day. Honestly this run felt like I left a lot of time on course and that would be because I did. The following runs never felt as quick or as smooth and without reviewing the videos back to back to back I'm not sure I could pick out the reasoning why. I came in with a 60.904 with which I felt another second could easily be lost. I went for it on run #2.
Run #2 would be my time to kill off some of the time I thought I left on course. Unfortunately that over zealousness to going faster came with a price, a cone price. I would hit two cones, both in slaloms I believe. It wouldn't matter, the scratch time for this run wasn't faster than my first. That would be disappointing because it certainly felt faster in some places.
Run #3 started off well. I had told myself after run #2 that I needed to clean it up and run the car hard but hard in the right places and not everywhere. I focused on my course walks and tried to remember what the other Nebraska Region drivers had said when they ran this course, where to stay tight, where to let it push out and so on. At the end of this run I felt really good and the run felt extremely fast. I was fast in places I needed to be and slow and tight where I needed to be but the time just wasn't that good. I came in with a 61.047. In hindsight I wish I had ran a "slow but tight" run around this course as I think that approach could yeild some interesting results.
At the end of the second day's runs I felt a massive release, it was almost euphoric. I had managed to survive my first Solo Nationals without any drama (well aside from that stupid cone #502...) and managed to have fun in the process. I put a lot of faces to names on forums and hopefully made some friends that I will see again in the future. While some may look at my 143.962 and 53r d of 59 entrants and scream failure, I think we need to step back and look at the relative success. A 3425lb Mustang driven by a hack with streetable preparation level managed to NOT be dead last in one of the deepest talent pools in all of Solo. If we look at the "could have, should have, would have" side of it I could have placed as high as 47t h at my first National Championship in a car that has no place in ST. I don't see the failure here, what I see is success. Success in the sense that I achieved a rather simple goal that I basically failed at Spring Nationals: Don't be DFL of those that compete both days. For my first Nationals, in a major underdog car, I don't see failure here at all. I don't see success either.
What I see is room for improvement. I'm a hack, a serious hack of a driver, and I don't think it is fair to base the fate of the car on my driving alone. This is my 3r d year of autocross and my second National event EVER so my driving is not what you'd expect to take a trophy spot. That said what is left for car prep is not going to kill the 3.671 seconds per day deficit to cars that can and do win.
It's taken me two years to really admit it but the car is really quite difficult to drive fast on 265 wide street tires. I think it will get easier to drive fast with 285's but it wont make the car fast enough to win in STU. We are talking about over a 5 second per day deficit to the top STU cars with this hack behidn the wheel. It's not that the car is hard to balance on the edge, it's just that the car requires a finness in the controls that simply do not land a hand to the inexperienced. The car is not the scalpel that STX cars are and that really punishes the car when the driver makes a mistake. Add in a course that also punishes the driver and we have a very large compounding effect.
I want to put out this challenge now to whomever will take it: If you honestly think a Mustang can trophy in STX then I'm open to your co-drive at Spring Nationals and Nationals next year (assuming the Mustang doesn't go to STU?). If you think the Mustang can trophy in STU then I am also open to your co-drive at Spring Nationals and Nationals. Give me a non-hack driver and lets prove the car's capabilities.
So where does Project Tilty go from here?
I'm not entirely sure. I know the car can do well in ESP, again maybe not with me behind the wheel, but I'm sure I can do better than the bottom 6% of the class (basically the last 3 spots in ESP). I'm also 100% sure that skills learned in STU on wider tires will pay dividends later in ESP but at the cost of another year of frustration. At this point I remain conflicted. I championed the move to STU and should "see it through to the end" but by the same token my competitive side is SCREAMING to find a better place to play and ST just isn't going to be it for a while. I'm also extremely interested in the next generation Mustang's Ecoboost 4 cylinder, something which I hope lives up to the hype that is building around the car. At any rate, I fully expect my decision to come before next season. There is some long and hard thinking that needs to be done before we get too excited about the direction the car will go. I'll probably end up doing a full on "super serious" ESP build with the car:
(Running joke with Britt Dollmeyer and Tim Bergstrom)
ANYWAY... Some things are still planned changes for next year. If the move to STU goes through, I'll be buying 18x10.5 wheels anyway, I just need to decide if I'm going to ESP or STU and chose the appropriate tire for the class. Stiffer springs will go in and the class decision isn't going to play too huge into the descision making process, I'm thinking 550 up front, 275 out back, both Sam's bars on and adjust as necessary. The torque arm is staying if for no other reason than it was an expensive addition that I plan to work around. One of the consequences of it's installation was the throttle on push the car has. It would be nice to put down power while turning and I think a large part of that push comes from the type of differential I'm currently running. Clutch based diffs don't like turning but they sure do like to put power down. A Torsen style torque biasing diff with a high bias ratio should allow for turning under power without added push and it should remove a wear item from the car for at least a few years, hopefully a decade or so!
I would also like to add in some harnesses and a harness bar to help better support the driver. My knee caps will thank me for that and I'm sure co-drivers will too! We will see what budget, if any, is left next year to do anything beyond those modifications. I imagine probably not, but if so, I think it's time for an exhaust, cold air intake and a tune. I'm sick of people asking if my car is a V6 or a V8. It should be pretty damn obvious it's not a six cylinder car already but I was asked no less than 3 times this past week if it was a V6 and that doesn't include the folks before. I checked the sound readings and my stock exhaust came in on day 2 at a rather loud 85 decibels (that's a joke for the record...) so I can spare a little extra noise! I suppose I should think about seats in the not to distant future. It's more of a weight thing than it is a driver comfort thing.
Anyway, I WANT to tear this build, my driving, and anything related to it apart, so please, comments, both negative criticisms and positive ones. Comment away!
That Strano course sure looks like a clusterf*ck. I like that kind of thing though, it lets the coyote hunt.
You'll have a good time in STU. You won't win, not even come close really, but the car is a blast on 285's and wider wheels compared to 265's. You're going to like that Torsen too. None of the mods I've made have had as much impact on the overall feel of the car as the Torsen has.
I haven't heard good things about the eco 4 S550. Apparently they're holding the v6 back in order to not make the 4 look bad...hmmm... V8 or nothing! If it's as light (and subsequently as fast) as they're claiming, I wouldn't be surprised if the S550 isn't in F Stock/ESP. Might actually be good in STU though. Who knows.
That Strano course sure looks like a clusterf*ck. I like that kind of thing though, it lets the coyote hunt.
You'll have a good time in STU. You won't win, not even come close really, but the car is a blast on 285's and wider wheels compared to 265's. You're going to like that Torsen too. None of the mods I've made have had as much impact on the overall feel of the car as the Torsen has.
I haven't heard good things about the eco 4 S550. Apparently they're holding the v6 back in order to not make the 4 look bad...hmmm... V8 or nothing! If it's as light (and subsequently as fast) as they're claiming, I wouldn't be surprised if the S550 isn't in F Stock/ESP. Might actually be good in STU though. Who knows.
Rumor mill was turning pretty hard at Nationals about the new cars, I heard F-Street, STU, and BSP as the locations but I honestly don't know.
The Eco 4 is supposed to be mid 300's in HP and Torque, should be lighter than the V6 if only just, get decent gas mileage and have reasonably lower insurance "Because 4 banger". Sounds like a great car to me. I don't want, need, or think the new 5.0L's are going to be in my future as much as I love the sound of that 5.0L V8 burbely goodness. I need a car that is slightly more practical from a DD standpoint and the fuel consumption on the new 5.0L's isn't any better in the city than my 4.6L is which isn't great either!
Besides, there is something about dusting older V8 cars in a 4 banger that just sounds like fun!
As for the Strano Course, it was work, a lot of work. If you didn't get the braking points right it would kill you and you could count the tenths of a second ticking off like the "You are visitor number ######" at a porn site. It was sickening how much time you could lose on that course. It was a blast but it's not my favorite driving style or course style. I much preferred Speidel's course.
I've been told nobody does to well at their first Nats. I was working while you were running and the corners I was working (slow right before the wallom on the east) and finish on west) you looked pretty good. They were sending cars fast and furious so I really didn't get to see you run through other sections. I wanted to stop by and chat but couldn't find you when I was free. Next year, i"ll be back for sure.
I wasn't running my Mustang due to it being semi prepared for ESP, and I wasn't going to bring a knife to a gun fight. ESP was crazy good this year. I ran in CS and finished middle of the pack. Again first year so I'll take it.
You should mount your camera on the drivers side exterior so you can see most of the course and your hands. It will help you see what you are doing right or wrong with them. In my case I still do it wrong... Also hearing throttle tip in will also be instructive for you.
Next year just go to ESP the Hoosiers aren't that much more expensive (you should get a season out of them...maybe). STU isn't any better for the Mustang than STX.
Great post I'm looking forward to seeing where you go from here.
I've been told nobody does to well at their first Nats. I was working while you were running and the corners I was working (slow right before the wallom on the east) and finish on west) you looked pretty good. They were sending cars fast and furious so I really didn't get to see you run through other sections. I wanted to stop by and chat but couldn't find you when I was free. Next year, i"ll be back for sure.
I wasn't running my Mustang due to it being semi prepared for ESP, and I wasn't going to bring a knife to a gun fight. ESP was crazy good this year. I ran in CS and finished middle of the pack. Again first year so I'll take it.
You should mount your camera on the drivers side exterior so you can see most of the course and your hands. It will help you see what you are doing right or wrong with them. In my case I still do it wrong... Also hearing throttle tip in will also be instructive for you.
Next year just go to ESP the Hoosiers aren't that much more expensive (you should get a season out of them...maybe). STU isn't any better for the Mustang than STX.
Great post I'm looking forward to seeing where you go from here.
I definitely agree that no one does all that well on their first trip to Nationals unless they were aliens. I didn't hang around my car after the heat was done I went and watched others or scurried off for food or what have you. I was a bit nervous this Nationals and didn't spend much time in the paddock but I think next year I'm going to hang around longer.
Thanks for the comments from on course. Next year I'm going to try and find a co-driver for the National events in whatever class I run just to watch for me on course because it's a real PITA to be on course and not know where you can improve.
As for the camera, it's my Droid Razr on a Panavise with Joby GripTite so it's staying inside the car since I kind of need the phone! That said, I couldn't find my GoPro SD and I think someone walked off with it or I lost it somewhere at my house (highly likely, I'm still unpacking stuff slowly after the move). Today I went out and bought a Hero 3 Black Edition, now I just need to get a good Micro SD card since I bought a regular SD card for it thinking it still took regular SD cards... My GoPro SD wouldn't record sound to save it's life, it made awful noises so it would have been pretty crappy to try and use it for throttle... not to mention my car's exhaust is stock and sound recorded a "whopping" 85 decibels on day 2... it's too quiet of a car to really hear that is why I picked my Razr for in car video. The Hero3 will probably become the primary "What's doing what?" camera!
ESP is certainly on the list but I'm going to sit on the decision making process for a little longer before going all in with it. It's going to require some money to be spent. The Hoosiers themselves, the wheels, new springs, and so on. I haven't made up my mind quite yet!
EDIT:
David of GotCone.com got his photos up for Day 1 of Nationals already:
Lots of good visual data in those photos and boy does he make the car look sweet!
Great write up. I'm in the same boat as you, in as far as trying to figure out what I'm building for next year. Except I don't really have a "current" build that I'm running. I have been following your build and results with great interest as you are the only other 4.6 guy in this forum. I am going to run STU locally and not Novice for the rest of this year ( there are several novice drivers running fully prepped cars in my region ) because frankly my times are less shitty compared to leaders of STU than in STX.
I started out thinking I'm going to build a pretty aggressive dual purpose build (allot like yours, daily and ST class ). But after following several builds and seeing the results of several "built" STU mustangs, I've reconsidered. One thing I can't rectify in my head, is there is a FS Coyote Mustang running locally with only Koni Yellows, camber bolts, Sam Strano front sway ( i think ), and street tires on stock wheels ( they are extreme summer tires of some kind ) that ran faster times than the STU mustangs. He has a auto car as opposed to the manuals of the STU mustangs. I know driver can make all the difference, but that much? Or is it that these cars weight is such a limiting factor that throwing all kinds of money at expensive suspension parts is pissing in the wind. Could it be that simple suspension mods and driving will be just as effective on the tire limitations that we have in ST? That is where I'm currently leaning. I'm going with bilsteins all the way around, K springs, J&M camber plates ( why buy the expensive plates when all anyone ever does is adjust camber and leave caster stock ), sway bars front and back, panhard bar ( after the panhard/watts thread the difference doesn't justify the cost difference ), and wheels and tires for STU. That way I'll have a moderate build to compare against the more serious expensive builds, not spend and ton and based on what I learn and what the S550 brings make a decision for 2015.
Great write up. I'm in the same boat as you, in as far as trying to figure out what I'm building for next year. Except I don't really have a "current" build that I'm running. I have been following your build and results with great interest as you are the only other 4.6 guy in this forum. I am going to run STU locally and not Novice for the rest of this year ( there are several novice drivers running fully prepped cars in my region ) because frankly my times are less shitty compared to leaders of STU than in STX.
I started out thinking I'm going to build a pretty aggressive dual purpose build (allot like yours, daily and ST class ). But after following several builds and seeing the results of several "built" STU mustangs, I've reconsidered. One thing I can't rectify in my head, is there is a FS Coyote Mustang running locally with only Koni Yellows, camber bolts, Sam Strano front sway ( i think ), and street tires on stock wheels ( they are extreme summer tires of some kind ) that ran faster times than the STU mustangs. He has a auto car as opposed to the manuals of the STU mustangs. I know driver can make all the difference, but that much? Or is it that these cars weight is such a limiting factor that throwing all kinds of money at expensive suspension parts is pissing in the wind. Could it be that simple suspension mods and driving will be just as effective on the tire limitations that we have in ST? That is where I'm currently leaning. I'm going with bilsteins all the way around, K springs, J&M camber plates ( why buy the expensive plates when all anyone ever does is adjust camber and leave caster stock ), sway bars front and back, panhard bar ( after the panhard/watts thread the difference doesn't justify the cost difference ), and wheels and tires for STU. That way I'll have a moderate build to compare against the more serious expensive builds, not spend and ton and based on what I learn and what the S550 brings make a decision for 2015.
You know it is funny but my car got raw timed by an RTR (F-Stock on Street Tires) 5.0L at Nationals, not once, but twice both days. It's quite amazing what a good driver can do in a nearly stock car that a mediocre driver in a well built car can't. This didn't happen just once, it was the same RTR Mustang that raw timed me at Spring Nationals and then again at the Midwest Divisional Championship. I guilt tripped, or bribed, or however you wish to say it, the car's owner to co-drive with me at a local event and neither he nor I got a fair shake at the car as it was pushing like crazy all event and we ended up running pretty similar times with me being slightly faster. That event turned out to be a good preparation for this event because the course had a few good shut down and turn places in it.
The 4.6L cars actually weigh less than the 5.0L's do. Terry Fair's STX car got down to the low 3400's in STX trim before he jumped to ESP and he had thrown in seats and a bunch of light weight parts in an effort to get car weight down. My car weighs in at about 3425lbs in competition trim and I still have stock seats, stock exhaust, stock battery, heavier than they should be coilovers, stock brakes, and so on. There is about 100lbs of weight that could easily be pulled from the car before going to extremes. The suspension geometry changes between the 5.0L and the 4.6L are pretty minor in the grand scheme of things. They have a longer upper control arm (about 1" longer if memory serves me correct) for a more stable instant center out back but the control arms up front have the same distance from the bushings to the blal joint. The ball joint is bigger in diameter but I don't think it's taller and the mounting points are roughly the same too on the K-Member. The 5.0L might have more power and the wider stock wheels (19x9's on the Brembo cars) can support the same tires as those of us in STX only they don't have a width limitation like we do. That pretty much boils down to driving experience. I'm relatively new, this is my third year, my second National event and first Nationals and Dave, my co-driver from the RTR Mustang has been doing this a hell of a lot longer than I have and he normally runs in an E-Modified "Mustang".
Great write up. I'm in the same boat as you, in as far as trying to figure out what I'm building for next year. Except I don't really have a "current" build that I'm running. I have been following your build and results with great interest as you are the only other 4.6 guy in this forum. I am going to run STU locally and not Novice for the rest of this year ( there are several novice drivers running fully prepped cars in my region ) because frankly my times are less shitty compared to leaders of STU than in STX.
I started out thinking I'm going to build a pretty aggressive dual purpose build (allot like yours, daily and ST class ). But after following several builds and seeing the results of several "built" STU mustangs, I've reconsidered. One thing I can't rectify in my head, is there is a FS Coyote Mustang running locally with only Koni Yellows, camber bolts, Sam Strano front sway ( i think ), and street tires on stock wheels ( they are extreme summer tires of some kind ) that ran faster times than the STU mustangs. He has a auto car as opposed to the manuals of the STU mustangs. I know driver can make all the difference, but that much? Or is it that these cars weight is such a limiting factor that throwing all kinds of money at expensive suspension parts is pissing in the wind. Could it be that simple suspension mods and driving will be just as effective on the tire limitations that we have in ST? That is where I'm currently leaning. I'm going with bilsteins all the way around, K springs, J&M camber plates ( why buy the expensive plates when all anyone ever does is adjust camber and leave caster stock ), sway bars front and back, panhard bar ( after the panhard/watts thread the difference doesn't justify the cost difference ), and wheels and tires for STU. That way I'll have a moderate build to compare against the more serious expensive builds, not spend and ton and based on what I learn and what the S550 brings make a decision for 2015.
The guy you're talking about with the DIB 5.0 CS has been racing longer than I've been alive. I suspect I would be seconds off of his time rather than tenths if he and I drove the same car.
The guy you're talking about with the DIB 5.0 CS has been racing longer than I've been alive. I suspect I would be seconds off of his time rather than tenths if he and I drove the same car.
Oh, I know he has been driving for a long time. Most of those years in dirt track, if I remember correctly. I just think I've noticed a pattern. Terry in your cars times compared to your times, pretty close. Whiskey's times compared to experienced driver in his cars times, pretty close. I know there are some "familiarity with the car" factors involved, but I think one possible explanation is that S197s with their weight and the classes tire limitations make spending biggish money on dampers and other suspension bits not worth the expenditure. I will find out, as my single biggest expenditure will be wheels and tires, everything else will be pretty budget.
Oh, I know he has been driving for a long time. Most of those years in dirt track, if I remember correctly. I just think I've noticed a pattern. Terry in your cars times compared to your times, pretty close. Whiskey's times compared to experienced driver in his cars times, pretty close. I know there are some "familiarity with the car" factors involved, but I think one possible explanation is that S197s with their weight and the classes tire limitations make spending biggish money on dampers and other suspension bits not worth the expenditure. I will find out, as my single biggest expenditure will be wheels and tires, everything else will be pretty budget.
For ST? Yeah it's probably not worth it, for ESP, yeah it's definitely worth every penny you spend because these cars can and DO do well in that class. Weight is a big deal on street tires with limited width because you can't just make up for the weight with more grip and power.
Oh, I know he has been driving for a long time. Most of those years in dirt track, if I remember correctly. I just think I've noticed a pattern. Terry in your cars times compared to your times, pretty close. Whiskey's times compared to experienced driver in his cars times, pretty close. I know there are some "familiarity with the car" factors involved, but I think one possible explanation is that S197s with their weight and the classes tire limitations make spending biggish money on dampers and other suspension bits not worth the expenditure. I will find out, as my single biggest expenditure will be wheels and tires, everything else will be pretty budget.
For ST? Yeah it's probably not worth it, for ESP, yeah it's definitely worth every penny you spend because these cars can and DO do well in that class. Weight is a big deal on street tires with limited width because you can't just make up for the weight with more grip and power.
This puts it pretty well I think. Everything you do to your car is in an effort to get your tires to work better, I think there's a point where the tires can't be helped. I've got 3 or 4 events I'm doing in October, all will be done on 315 R Comps. I'm interested to see how the car reacts to the big tires. Having ridden with Terry in his red car on fresh 315 A6's at an autocross down in New Orleans, I can say that the Mustang on street tires is really kind of a different car than it is on big R-comps.
The torque arm is staying if for no other reason than it was an expensive addition that I plan to work around. One of the consequences of it's installation was the throttle on push the car has. It would be nice to put down power while turning and I think a large part of that push comes from the type of differential I'm currently running. Clutch based diffs don't like turning but they sure do like to put power down. A Torsen style torque biasing diff with a high bias ratio should allow for turning under power without added push and it should remove a wear item from the car for at least a few years, hopefully a decade or so!
I can certainly see it removing a wear item from the car!
However, I don't see how it's going to actually reduce the push you get around the turns. If anything, I'd expect it to increase the grip you get in the rear because now you're more properly balancing the power to the rear wheels.
My neophyte impression, for what it's worth, is that push (understeer) versus oversteer is always a question of which end breaks traction first. Nothing more, nothing less. If you dial in less understeer, you wind up dialing in more oversteer automatically. You may wind up also increasing the total amount of traction you get before something breaks loose, of course, and that's desirable, but in the end, once you get to the limits, one end or the other is going to let go.
You may end up having to give up a little traction in order to gain a bit of extra controllability. Ideally, you'd gain both simultaneously. I don't think a Torsen is going to accomplish that. It seems to me that you need to do something to increase the grip at the front end while keeping it the same in the rear. The Torsen should help with grip in the rear when powering through and out of corners, but won't help with grip in the front. Indeed, it may actually slightly reduce your grip in the front.
My reasoning behind that is that by more properly distributing the torque between the two wheels, the wheel on the outside is going to be getting more torque than it did before. That will cause the outside front tire to lift a little more, and thus to break traction a little earlier than it did before. Hence, I would actually expect more push with a Torsen than with the Traction Lok, both because the rear won't break loose as easily (thus, higher grip in the rear) and because the front will lift just a little more as a result of the greater amount of torque in the rear and, especially, on the outside.
Be interesting to see if my thinking on that is correct...
) and hopefully between the two of us we could learn something new. I know I got some pretty good tips of things I've been feeling since the start of the season in terms of spring rates and the likes.
