Project STX update and 13/14 April Solo event After Action

[Whiskey11]

Whiskey, thanks for buying new wheels. Looks like the Mustang will be going to STU next year!

http://scca.cdn.racersites.com/prod/assets/June%20SEB%20FasTrack%20Minutes.pdf



Also looks like the rear cover and Watts link allowance is going through for ST and SP.

Ohh God bless... I knew it, I just wonder how much wider we will get and what it will cost me... Whatever it is I hope it is a size I can get sooner rather than later.

 

[Vorshlag-Fair]

Ohh God bless... I knew it, I just wonder how much wider we will get and what it will cost me... Whatever it is I hope it is a size I can get sooner rather than later.

Plan on 285mm tires being the hard set limit for all 2WD cars in STU for the foreseeable future. It might be another 2 years before these hand-wringers make any adjustments to the newly reclassed S197.

I'd use an 18x10" wheel and 285/35/18 Hankook RS-3 and never look back. The picture above is my 2011 on 18x10's with 285/30/18 Yokohama AD08s. That 285/30 tire is pretty short, however, but there are many more brand options in this size. Just pick the appropriate gearing for your year S197 (the tallest - like 3.31) if you go with the shorter tire. The 285/35/18 is a taller tire and fits the S197 a bit better, both for ground clearance/ride height and final gearing.

Cheers,

 

[csamsh]

Plan on 285mm tires being the hard set limit for all 2WD cars in STU for the foreseeable future. It might be another 2 years before these hand-wringers make any adjustments to the newly reclassed S197.

I'd use an 18x10" wheel and 285/35/18 Hankook RS-3 and never look back. The picture above is my 2011 on 18x10's with 285/30/18 Yokohama AD08s. That 285/30 tire is pretty short, however, but there are many more brand options in this size. Just pick the appropriate gearing for your year S197 (the tallest - like 3.31) if you go with the shorter tire. The 285/35/18 is a taller tire and fits the S197 a bit better, both for ground clearance/ride height and final gearing.

Cheers,

That's EXACTLY the setup I have (18x10 w/285/35 RS3's). I'll test it out sometime and report back, that is...unless my OTHER wheels happen to show up sometime (heh). Too bad there is NO ONE who runs STU up here...oh well.

 

[Whiskey11]

Plan on 285mm tires being the hard set limit for all 2WD cars in STU for the foreseeable future. It might be another 2 years before these hand-wringers make any adjustments to the newly reclassed S197.

I'd use an 18x10" wheel and 285/35/18 Hankook RS-3 and never look back. The picture above is my 2011 on 18x10's with 285/30/18 Yokohama AD08s. That 285/30 tire is pretty short, however, but there are many more brand options in this size. Just pick the appropriate gearing for your year S197 (the tallest - like 3.31) if you go with the shorter tire. The 285/35/18 is a taller tire and fits the S197 a bit better, both for ground clearance/ride height and final gearing.

Cheers,

This is my thought process Terry and you can "correct" as necessary but any wheel purchases for STU will also need to carry over to ESP should I ever go there so I'm going to go for as wide as possible sooner rather than later. I am specifically looking at 18x11 setup. Even more specifically I am looking at running it square. There has to be an offset where a small spacer can be used to run a square setup. Either with the spacer up front or out back and I will tolerate poke since these wont be DD wheels. That will set me up well for ESP as well as any tire width increases that we may get in STU down the road.

As for the tires, I'm kinda holding off. I wont be able to use them at Nationals anyway so I'll wait until next year to really look at the tests. My car has 3.55's, a 2.00 second gear and a potential 6500 RPM redline with a tuner (6250 is stock). I can chose between 3.31's, 3.55's and 3.73's (Bullitt Mustang) for gearing options although I see no real need to go shorter than 3.55's. With 3.73's, 26.3" tall tires and a 6500 redline it comes out to around 67 mph in second gear. I'm sure with 3.55's, short tires and the same redline I'll still be over 65 mph in second gear.

 

[Vorshlag-Fair]

This is my thought process Terry and you can "correct" as necessary but any wheel purchases for STU will also need to carry over to ESP should I ever go there so I'm going to go for as wide as possible sooner rather than later. I am specifically looking at 18x11 setup. Even more specifically I am looking at running it square. There has to be an offset where a small spacer can be used to run a square setup. Either with the spacer up front or out back and I will tolerate poke since these wont be DD wheels. That will set me up well for ESP as well as any tire width increases that we may get in STU down the road.

We can make a Forgestar in 18x11" front and rear, but it isn't easy, and is by no means possible with the same wheel offset front & rear + a spacer. We have the numbers to do it (11" front/rear fitment + spacer) but nobody makes that range in a 1-piece 18x11" wheel, yet. It is over 1" different offset for the 11" wide front and rear wheels under stock fenders, and at one end it is outside of the range that Forgestar can make on their 18x11". We have a set of 11" wheels coming in for Mark ... we will photograph those and show them soon. Massively different front and rear offsets. It isn't 100% perfect, as the range of offsets needed on the 11" wheel didn't match the 12" backspacing we used on our car, but it is close. A tiny compromise, but it is going to work, just with different front and rear wheels that cannot be rotated front to back.

In most 3-piece wheels it is possible to make an 11" wheel that could be rotated front to back (with a spacer on one end), though, just much more expensive and heavier.

As for the tires, I'm kinda holding off. I wont be able to use them at Nationals anyway so I'll wait until next year to really look at the tests. My car has 3.55's, a 2.00 second gear and a potential 6500 RPM redline with a tuner (6250 is stock). I can chose between 3.31's, 3.55's and 3.73's (Bullitt Mustang) for gearing options although I see no real need to go shorter than 3.55's. With 3.73's, 26.3" tall tires and a 6500 redline it comes out to around 67 mph in second gear. I'm sure with 3.55's, short tires and the same redline I'll still be over 65 mph in second gear.

Ahh, I understand. Just... there was a clearance deal on the 285/35/18 Hankooks about... a week ago?

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires...l=Blackwall&partnum=835WR8Z222XLOLD&tab=Specs

Yea, still showing the 2009 batch of this size/brand @ $159 each. That's crazy cheap. Just wanted to point that out... in case you maybe wanted to get a set in this unique-to-Hankook-size before Nats and then start practicing for the '14 season right after.

Cheers,

 

[Whiskey11]

We can make a Forgestar in 18x11" front and rear, but it isn't easy, and is by no means possible with the same wheel offset front & rear + a spacer. We have the numbers to do it (11" front/rear fitment + spacer) but nobody makes that range in a 1-piece 18x11" wheel, yet. It is over 1" different offset for the 11" wide front and rear wheels under stock fenders, and at one end it is outside of the range that Forgestar can make on their 18x11". We have a set of 11" wheels coming in for Mark ... we will photograph those and show them soon. Massively different front and rear offsets. It isn't 100% perfect, as the range of offsets needed on the 11" wheel didn't match the 12" backspacing we used on our car, but it is close. A tiny compromise, but it is going to work, just with different front and rear wheels that cannot be rotated front to back.

In most 3-piece wheels it is possible to make an 11" wheel that could be rotated front to back (with a spacer on one end), though, just much more expensive and heavier.



Ahh, I understand. Just... there was a clearance deal on the 285/35/18 Hankooks about... a week ago?

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires...l=Blackwall&partnum=835WR8Z222XLOLD&tab=Specs

Yea, still showing the 2009 batch of this size/brand @ $159 each. That's crazy cheap. Just wanted to point that out... in case you maybe wanted to get a set in this unique-to-Hankook-size before Nats and then start practicing for the '14 season right after.

Cheers,

Hmmm... I really hate Ford sometimes for making these cars not accept some stupid wide square tire setups. I really do not want to start having wheels dedicated to one end of the car. Proper rotation is key for tire life, even with camber. I need to converse with Sam some about the PF01 18x10.5 setup he used in ESP on his car. He ran it front and back with a 5mm spacer up front and it looked like it worked reasonably well from an autocross standpoint. So long as they can be driven from Omaha to Lincoln for events, that may be the route I go. I do wonder if the spacer is still necessary with coilovers. Now, I know you have mentioned 1200lbs/in front springs and 600lbs/in rear springs to make it work, but I don't think Sam was running those rates on his GT in ESP when he had them. Hence why I need to converse with him about that setup.

Otherwise I guess to the D-Force wheel it is (or a Forgestar made to the same specs?). I'm assuming the same holds true for the 18x10.5's that holds true for the 11's in terms of not being really able to run a square setup with a spacer. Poke is fine so long as poke doesn't translate to rub.

 

[sholzer]

FWIW most of the properly ESP prepped cars at the prosolo I went to were on the 18x10.5 PF01s and were setup by Sam (Ron's car and Sam V's car are the two that come to mind). I'm sure Sam will be able to sort you out

 

[brdollmeyer]

Chris,

Didn't want to pollute the RRAX thread with Mustang talk.

Tim & I weighed the car last at my house some time ago. Before Nats last year. The scales were Roadrunner scales and they haven't been certified in a while...so maybe our weights were a little off. But it was 3360.

That said. If your car is 3404 right now:

Seats 57 lbs stock & your have to have seats that weigh 25 lbs each. That saves 54 lbs. Stock battery vs PC680, maybe 12 lbs. PC 680's aren't that light. Stock exhaust vs full length magnaflow, can't remember, maybe 10 lbs.
We just added JBA long tube headers a couple months ago & the combo
of the headers and the h pipe bolted up to the magnaflow, net loss 7lbs, yep thats it. My old ST Civic lost 12 lbs just in the exhaust manifold to header swap.
Pulleys - us too - no change.

That's 83 lbs. If your weights are correct, you will be able to get it into the low 3300's. What scales did you use? Did you weigh it after the Watts link install or before?

 

[Whiskey11]

Chris,

Didn't want to pollute the RRAX thread with Mustang talk.

Tim & I weighed the car last at my house some time ago. Before Nats last year. The scales were Roadrunner scales and they haven't been certified in a while...so maybe our weights were a little off. But it was 3360.

That said. If your car is 3404 right now:

Seats 57 lbs stock & your have to have seats that weigh 25 lbs each. That saves 54 lbs. Stock battery vs PC680, maybe 12 lbs. PC 680's aren't that light. Stock exhaust vs full length magnaflow, can't remember, maybe 10 lbs.
We just added JBA long tube headers a couple months ago & the combo
of the headers and the h pipe bolted up to the magnaflow, net loss 7lbs, yep thats it. My old ST Civic lost 12 lbs just in the exhaust manifold to header swap.
Pulleys - us too - no change.

That's 83 lbs. If your weights are correct, you will be able to get it into the low 3300's. What scales did you use? Did you weigh it after the Watts link install or before?

I have no idea what the scales were but the car was corner balanced by Woodhouse Dodge in Blair Nebraska by Mark Jorgensen. Mark is a manager of the Woodhouse Motorsports division, a friend, and someone I trust. Their scales are used to setup Vipers for their race team so I imagine they are pretty accurate.

That said, the car came in at 3477 without a driver and an eighth tank with the Ground Control Coilovers, Fays2 Watts link, stock wheels with 245/45/18 Star Specs, Strano front bar, stock rear bar and all the trunk junk. Take out the trunk junk (-32.5lbs) for 3444lbs. New wheels and tires dropped another 35lbs off the car for 3409.5lbs. I guess I was 5.5lbs under on my estimates of curb weight. I think I had the spare + jack at 36lbs instead of 32.5lbs. Eitherway, fuel weight alone lower than 1/8th will be a few pounds here or there.

Anyway, 57.5lb seats each for a total of 115lbs, down to 50lbs is 65lbs of weight savings. I have a 32lb battery down to 14lbs (This weight is from the battery that Fair is using in his 2011) for 18 lbs. I have muffler delete exhaust (with resonators) and cast iron manifold removal for shorties (more midrange than LTs from the few dyno's I've seen) for a total of 30lbs, that is an estimate but not one that is far off. I have 9lbs for just using replacement rotors with the stock brakes, could go lighter if I wanted to spend some Texa$ money on the Wilwood setups mentioned by Fair earlier. 122lbs there. Pullies were a wash, I think it was about a pound total in weight reduction and a couple of ponies.

With all of that being from off the shelf parts. You could drop a lot more weight from the exhaust with titanium or aluminum and some custom fabbed parts. I also don't have the lightest coilovers in the world, nor the lightest wheels, nor do I have the weights for the CAI figured in, or any other legal modifications.

I don't have the weight of the Torque Arm yet, I don't even have it yet, nor do I have the weight of the Torsen T2R vs the T-Lok. I imagine this car will be around 3300lbs or a touch over when I get done with it.

Imagine what it would be if my car was not a Premium with all this useless crap in it? No Shaker 500 sound system, no interior lighting, no leather back seat, lighter dash cover, etc. Imagine if my budget was truly unlimited and I opted to use all the stupid light weight components I could find. I could see this car being mid 3200's in weight reasonably easily. Even if the exhaust estimate is high and it is only 7-10lbs, that still is 100lbs of weight, so a touch over 3300 with off the shelf parts!

EDIT: I know what I was thinking with my 3405lb curb weight estimate. The trunk mat is a couple of pounds. The "What's it weigh" thread on this forum says SEVEN pounds. That might be a touch high but it's a couple pounds easy.

 

[SoundGuyDave]

We can make a Forgestar in 18x11" front and rear, but it isn't easy, and is by no means possible with the same wheel offset front & rear + a spacer. We have the numbers to do it (11" front/rear fitment + spacer) but nobody makes that range in a 1-piece 18x11" wheel, yet. It is over 1" different offset for the 11" wide front and rear wheels under stock fenders, and at one end it is outside of the range that Forgestar can make on their 18x11".

Crap. It sounds to me like there is an opportunity here for a wheel mfgr to pick up a niche market lock, if they can get it in at a reasonable cost. For the street set, maybe no big deal with dedicated front and rear setups, but for anybody doing ANY competition work, be it autocross or road racing, not being able to rotate essentially means either carrying a tire machine with you, having multiple sets of the dedicated wheels, or accepting a 50%+ reduction in the lifespan of some already expensive race rubber. Think of it this way... For a typical 3-4.5hr enduro, you'll want stickers (or something pretty fresh) for the race, plus spares in the event of tire damage (flatspot means two fronts, but a bead rupture could be front or rear) and then you'll need another set for rains. So, we're looking at between three and four SETS of wheels at a minimum. That's starting to make narrowing the rear end kind of attractive...

I don't have the weight of the Torque Arm yet, I don't even have it yet, nor do I have the weight of the Torsen T2R vs the T-Lok. I imagine this car will be around 3300lbs or a touch over when I get done with it.

Imagine what it would be if my car was not a Premium with all this useless crap in it? No Shaker 500 sound system, no interior lighting, no leather back seat, lighter dash cover, etc. Imagine if my budget was truly unlimited and I opted to use all the stupid light weight components I could find. I could see this car being mid 3200's in weight reasonably easily. Even if the exhaust estimate is high and it is only 7-10lbs, that still is 100lbs of weight, so a touch over 3300 with off the shelf parts!

THAT is impressive! My gutted and caged car hits the scales with 1/4 tank of fuel and a 150lb yahoo behind the wheel at 3306lbs. That you're in the same neighborhood in street trim is amazing.

 

[Whiskey11]

THAT is impressive! My gutted and caged car hits the scales with 1/4 tank of fuel and a 150lb yahoo behind the wheel at 3306lbs. That you're in the same neighborhood in street trim is amazing.

Keep in mind these weights are sans driver. I'm a lard ass at about 280lbs (being 6'5" sucks ) so my actual race weight is going to be 3580lbs-3600lbs give or take...

Also: Cages... that's probably the majority of the weight added back in.

 

[Norm Peterson]

We can make a Forgestar in 18x11" front and rear, but it isn't easy, and is by no means possible with the same wheel offset front & rear + a spacer. We have the numbers to do it (11" front/rear fitment + spacer) but nobody makes that range in a 1-piece 18x11" wheel, yet. It is over 1" different offset for the 11" wide front and rear wheels under stock fenders, and at one end it is outside of the range that Forgestar can make on their 18x11".

What tire size is that based on? It doesn't seem to me that 285/35's would be as demanding on wheel offset as 315/xx's even when mounted on the same width wheels, so you'd have a little more 'slack' in the necessary offsets to work with.

Part of this is relevant to the STU matter at hand and part for track use where an ESP-comparable effort is not envisioned.


Norm

 

[Vorshlag-Fair]

What tire size is that based on? It doesn't seem to me that 285/35's would be as demanding on wheel offset as 315/xx's even when mounted on the same width wheels, so you'd have a little more 'slack' in the necessary offsets to work with.

Part of this is relevant to the STU matter at hand and part for track use where an ESP-comparable effort is not envisioned.


Norm

Yea, you are right: for STU the Mustang is currently limited to a 285mm tire. An 18x11" wheel isn't needed for a 285mm tire (STU)... but it doesn't hurt. I tend to run more wheel width than normal, especially when I have a tire width maximum. An 18x10" wheel is LOADS easier to fit to a Mustang, of course, but for the ultimate S197 STU build... I wouldn't skimp on wheel width. For the casual racers, don't go to these extremes and just use an 18x10" and be happy.

But I've tested this "run more wheel" trick on numerous autox cars over the years, with decent results. Scientific? Not really - more "we tried it and won", trial-and-error sort of testing. Take the car above (Our $2011 GRM Challenge winning E30 LSx), which had 18x11" wheels at all four corners, yet we ran it with 285/30/18 tires. It turned in like mad and worked REALLY well on track and in autocross situations (we ran it at the Challenge on $200 worth of circle track, steel 15x10" wheels and 275/35/15 Hoosiers, instead of the costlier CCW 18x11" wheels). This is an old autocrosser trick - more wheel width than tire width. Every time I've done this with an autox car (wider wheels "than it needs" for a given tire size) it handled better and just worked.

So for STU, there is a hard set tire width maximum (245mm for AWD, 285mm for 2WD) but no wheel width maximum. Only class in ST that has this open ended wheel width rule, so we always try to PUSH that loophole when we build STU cars. We pushed this on two our STU builds shown here; a 265/35/18 tire on an 18x10" wheel on our STU E36 M3 (below) and a 245/40/18 tire on an 18x10" wheel on our STU EVOX MR (above).

This is hardly scientific proof, but more wheel width did not seem to hurt when it is allowed and it fits. Again... my wacky theory that not everyone will agree with. I am fine with that.

 

[Whiskey11]

Pre-Nationals Build Up Update:

Yesterday I signed for my house so I started ordering some of the parts I need to get ready for Nationals. So far I have ordered:

-Prothane Rear lower control arm Poly Bushings (going to be modified for less bind)
-Hellwig/Strano 25mm rear bar bushing replacement kit (replaced for free by Hellwig!)
-Fays2 rebuild kit (4 new rod ends and O-rings)

On the docket to be ordered tomorrow:
-Ford Racing Diff Cover M-4033-K (this is the finned diff cover on Boss 302/Track Pack/SVTPP cars)
-Cortex Racing torque Arm

Filip at Cortex Racing was NOT comfortable designing a Torque Arm that mounts to the stamped steel diff cover. Why is beyond me as I'm having a hard time understanding what additional forces would be going through the diff cover that the stamped steel one wouldn't deal with. The rotational forces are transmitted through the bolts on an axis shared with the axle shafts which would be a push/pull force and not really a torsional force. Part of the axle rotation force is carried by the differential housing as the other mounting points for the Cortex Arm are bolted to the cast diff housing. At any rate, the diff cover will be legal next year, so if the Torque Arm turns my car into a BMW/RX8/Fresh Breeze/Integra eating monster, I'll just DQ my runs. The chances are SLIM.

You'll notice the Torsen T2R is missing. There are going to be a few people screaming at their screen "NO WHISKEY! YOU ARE DOING IT WRONG! BAD WHISKEY!" but hear me out. The bushings in the control arms are SHOT. Literally done. Unfortunately due to having to add a few appliances to the house, the money isn't there for a T2R this year... once again... Instead, my buddy has offered to rebuild the Traction Lok, again, under powertrain warranty, for free. I owe this guy kegs of beer at this point. He is going to try and put the GT500 Carbon Fiber plates in instead of the organics so that will hopefully help make things last longer back there. I will also have him look at the whine I'm getting as well as the "drivetrain" slop and see if it's bushing related (soon to be cured via Poly bushings in the LCA's and the Torque Arm) or the driveshaft is fubar and in need of replacement.

All that said, priorities being what they are, the Torque Arm/Poly Bushing route is a bit of a necessity to keep from further damaging the rear end of the car and the rebuild seems to fit the budget a lot better (it costs me time, but nothing else).

The good news is that all of this should hopefully be here before the Midwest Divisional Championship the 16-18th of August. The Midwest Divisional Championship starts basically 4 straight weekends of events:

August 16-18th - Midwest Divisional Championship at LAP-N
August 24th - Pre-Nationals Test'n'Tune at LAP-N
August 25th - Solo Points event at LAP-N
September 1st - Evolution School Test'n'Tune at LAP-N
September 5th and 6th - STX Solo Nationals Run days at LAP-N

After that, there is a whole month long breather in the Nebraska Region events to get a cool down from a month solid of events.

I would like to point out that in the middle of all this nonsense I have to put all the new parts on AND move from my apartment from the house while juggling the full time job TOO. Holy crap, this month is a bit stressful but now that I've signed for the house, it can be less stressful!

 

[sholzer]

Congrats on the house and good luck at Nats! I was trying to find a way to make it out there to drive a friend's CSP miata, but between school and costs it's not really possible

 

[Whiskey11]

Congrats on the house and good luck at Nats! I was trying to find a way to make it out there to drive a friend's CSP miata, but between school and costs it's not really possible

Thanks, it's going to be an experience, like all things at the National level. 51 people signed up for STX so I'm hoping a few people are more my "speed" if you catch my drift! Anything to be higher than DFL. I feel you on the cost pains, just the entry fee is painful but I think in the end it will be worth it!

 

[NDSP]

Whiskey,

If you don't mind me asking, do you consider your car to be at a disadvantage on power compared to the coyote powered s197's? I ask because I'm about ready to spend a reasonable sum on suspension for my car and I have a little apprehension after reading all these mentions of the coyote cars not being able to use all of their power and I can't even break the tires loose in first gear. I know in autoX and road track power isn't the end all be all like in drag racing, but in these heavy cars I can't help but think not enough would be a disadvantage.

Thanks,

James

 

[Whiskey11]

Whiskey,

If you don't mind me asking, do you consider your car to be at a disadvantage on power compared to the coyote powered s197's? I ask because I'm about ready to spend a reasonable sum on suspension for my car and I have a little apprehension after reading all these mentions of the coyote cars not being able to use all of their power and I can't even break the tires loose in first gear. I know in autoX and road track power isn't the end all be all like in drag racing, but in these heavy cars I can't help but think not enough would be a disadvantage.

Thanks,

James

I'm on the stock tune in my car and I dont feel I can utilize any more power without wider tires so for right now in STX, no I dont feel like I have a disadvantage, if anything it is an advantage because I dont turn my tires into smoke by looking at the gas pedal.

Hopefully that answers your question!

 

[sholzer]

I'll chime in and say that with my 5.0, making stock power, I can EASILY spin my 295 A6's. If you're a good driver with superb throttle control, you will probably be faster in a car with more HP than a car with stock HP. But, at the same time, the car with less HP might be a lot easier to drive, especially for less experienced, lead foot drivers.

 

[Sky Render]

Yeah, on most small autox courses, I can't even go full-throttle.