Project STX update and 13/14 April Solo event After Action

Vorshlag-Fair

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Yeah, on most small autox courses, I can't even go full-throttle.

Yea, I try to tell people this all the time when they are modding their Mustangs for autox or even track use. Adding more power should be LAST ON YOUR LIST. But what do most people do first? Power mods (facepalm).



The co-drive in Mark C's car at an autocross a week ago was a reminder to me of how little you can use WOT in these cars with street tires. Even with fresh 285 RS-3s I never used Wide Open for more than about 1-1.5 seconds at a time, and probably less than 5 seconds over the entire 60 sec run. Just part of the game when you have more power than tire in tight, autocross situations. It becomes almost completely about throttle control...
 

NDSP

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I guess my concern is that I CAN go full throttle with absolutely no worry about tire spin. With a coyote I could potentially mitigate tire spin with throttle control. So there is a happy medium in there somewhere. I was asking Whiskey because he has real world 3V competition experience and could answer if he thought he was giving up too much potential performance because of the lower hp.
 

Sky Render

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Yea, I try to tell people this all the time when they are modding their Mustangs for autox or even track use. Adding more power should be LAST ON YOUR LIST. But what do most people do first? Power mods (facepalm).

Power mods aren't for autox. They're for those rare moments when you have an entrance ramp and a mostly-empty stretch of the Capital Beltway in front of you... :thumb:

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Whiskey11

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I guess my concern is that I CAN go full throttle with absolutely no worry about tire spin. With a coyote I could potentially mitigate tire spin with throttle control. So there is a happy medium in there somewhere. I was asking Whiskey because he has real world 3V competition experience and could answer if he thought he was giving up too much potential performance because of the lower hp.

It is all in car setup. I could bottom out the rear roll center and make dump trucks look like GT1 cars if I really wanted to. Right nkw, throttle oversteer comes on above 5k and only at WOT and that is on 265s RS3s loaded up in a corner. My codriver for the Nebraskhana was astounded by the grip level of the car and he is an ESP driver...

I dont think more power is going to help in STX but STU it might have some use as adding 20mm more tire will make it harder to get throttle oversteer. Then again, so might the Torque Arm, or moving the front swaybar to full stiff but then again, adding the 25mm rear bar might make my car a Formula D car. Testing, testing and more testing...
 

2008 V6

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Crap. It sounds to me like there is an opportunity here for a wheel mfgr to pick up a niche market lock, if they can get it in at a reasonable cost. For the street set, maybe no big deal with dedicated front and rear setups, but for anybody doing ANY competition work, be it autocross or road racing, not being able to rotate essentially means either carrying a tire machine with you, having multiple sets of the dedicated wheels, or accepting a 50%+ reduction in the lifespan of some already expensive race rubber. Think of it this way... For a typical 3-4.5hr enduro, you'll want stickers (or something pretty fresh) for the race, plus spares in the event of tire damage (flatspot means two fronts, but a bead rupture could be front or rear) and then you'll need another set for rains. So, we're looking at between three and four SETS of wheels at a minimum. That's starting to make narrowing the rear end kind of attractive...






THAT is impressive! My gutted and caged car hits the scales with 1/4 tank of fuel and a 150lb yahoo behind the wheel at 3306lbs. That you're in the same neighborhood in street trim is amazing.


Cutting the rear end will be easy - I will do this if I continue with our car. Axles are much cheaper than I imagined. New ones are only a bit mor expensive than having the stock ones modified. This was pointed out by another member.

A proper 8 point cage is going to weigh 120 + LBS for a S197. Add in a flame out system & other necessities and it adds up quickly.
 

csamsh

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Personally, I'm not happy unless I can spin the tires at will. If there is ever a time when I can't, it means I'm not going as fast as I could be.

I think you have "enough power" when you are afraid at all times.
 

Justin_H

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With 285 RS3s and a 25mm rear bar, throttle oversteer was still easy to find on my STU-ish 06 GT running in XP last weekend. If I stiffen the front bar (Strano bar, middle setting), it should become harder to find power oversteer, but then the car won't turn in like I want it to. It might be faster that way, but I need to give myself another event to get used to the RS3s. They probably weren't broken in until about my third run.

Some data from that event: 5 of 21 STX drivers raw timed me, all in BMWs, the best ran 57.7 to my 59.6. It wasn't my best driving day, I think I left a good bit on the table. Had a good run going on run 4 (last run) but tossed it away when I nearly spun after getting too greedy in the last slalom. In STU, 8 of 12 drivers beat me, all but one in boost buggies, the other was in an M3, top time in STU was 55.5. Top time in ESP was 55.4.
 

Sam Strano

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Justin and I have known each other a long time, and he can drive... we were usually pretty close when we ran Camaro's. His car is far, far from an STX car. To be fair, while the top ESP time was 55.4, I ran 53.4 and ESP needs to run SS times to run at the top Nationally, give or take a few tenths.

I really don't think you guys want STU to happen. While it might not always show it, those cars should be faster than STX, so be careful what you wish for because you just might get it. If you want to run an S197 competitively, you need to be in ESP.
 
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Sam, I agree, the only competive place right now for not stock S197s is ESP.

But as I and others have stated before, I have no interest in running ESP. I have no interest in Hoosiers, 2hz ride frequencies, or turning my street car into a race car. Anyone that believes there is any "street" in a well prepped SP car is mistaken.

There needs to be some way for our cars to fit into a street tire class. STU gets us more tire, a step in the right direction, even if we are less competitive.
 

csamsh

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And now we need to start begging for MORE tire.

NEVER QUIT

:deadhorse: :deadhorse: :deadhorse: :deadhorse: :deadhorse:
 

Whiskey11

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Teaser Update:

The Midwest Divisional is done with Day 1and I believe I am in last place by about a second. We ran the West Course from the 2012 Solo Nationals and my fastest vaguely comparable time was a 64.565ish. That time is some 3.25 seconds off Heitkotters time last year. Assuming I hold this pace through tomorrow's east course (unlikely, but I can dream right?) from last years Nats I would have placed 34/50.

That said, the east course is a bit of a visual Charlie Foxtrot so who knows how I will do.
 

Vorshlag-Fair

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Sam, I agree, the only competitive place right now for not stock S197s is ESP.

But as I and others have stated before, I have no interest in running ESP. I have no interest in Hoosiers, 2hz ride frequencies, or turning my street car into a race car. Anyone that believes there is any "street" in a well prepped SP car is mistaken.

There needs to be some way for our cars to fit into a street tire class. STU gets us more tire, a step in the right direction, even if we are less competitive.
Good reply to the stream of ny-sayers who say "The S197 is doomed in STU". Sure, these cars have a better chance at "winning" in ESP class, but Street Prepared is so far beyond what a Street car is anymore, that a lot of folks would rather run in Street Touring in a more challenged class/car instead.

I had a better reply written but lost it, so I am re-writing a quick one. The picture below is of our TT3 Mustang running in an autocross recently (it falls into StreetMod but is barely out of ESP). We've upped the spring rates from 450#/in fronts and 175#/in rears (which we ran in STX/STU then at the 2012 SCCA Solo Nationals in ESP) to 800F/350R rates, and it STILL has too much roll. This is with big WL bars maxed out as well.

B61G4816-M.jpg


So with 2x the rates we ran on Street Tires the car needs more with 315mm Hoosier A6s. We are fast approaching the 1000#/in rates used on Tim Bergstrom's 2006 GT that placed 2nd in ESP at Nats (to my then softly sprung/overweight' 2011's 4th place). How do these cars ride with 800-1000 pound springs? Pretty poorly, just like you'd think - and these cars both have real monotube adjustable shocks with proper shortened lengths (not "Konis and lowering springs", which don't show up at the pointy end of the finish results anymore).

No, I think more people are like dontlifttoshift here, who want a real dual-purpose street/autox car and don't want to spend the $$$ on Hoosiers or give up ride quality with 1000# spring rates. But they DO want better handling, ride, and adjustability beyond what Stock/Street allows.

That's where Street Touring fits in.

DSC_9410-M.jpg


The 2012 GT above has real shocks, 550/250 rates, and handles very well. I autocrossed it a few weeks ago in STU and had a blast. 285 RS-3s are sticky enough to make 1.2g lateral but still streetable enough to drive to the event on. Mark took his car from 3 hours away, we both raced it on his STU tires, and drove it home on the same set-up. Only changes were a camber adjustment and shock valving knob changes at the event, totaling all of 5 minutes. Will a well prepped S197 set STU on fire at Nationals? No, not really... but it can still be street driven, whereas a well prepped ESP car really can not be without some major compromises to either the set-up or street comfort.

DSC_9745-M.jpg


I had a blast autocrossing in the STX car above yesterday, winning the class and beating all of the STU cars; the car's owner beat a 30 car Novice field in it as well. This is a daily driven 2013 BRZ on MCS TT1 singles, 450F/R rates, VM plates, Enkei 17x9s, 255 BFG Rivals, stock power. My wife Amy raced our 2013 GT and Mark ran his 2012 GT in STU again and both were nearly 3.6 seconds back from the BRZ's STX times. It is 900 pounds lighter than an S197 Mustang... so, yea, it has a big advantage. Without a doubt this car with a halfway decent driver could beat any S197 prepped for STX. I have a feeling they will CRUSH the STX field at Nationals.

Keeping the S197 in STX, extra-handicapped on super skinny 265mm tires, seems like such folly now that I've driven a well prepped BRZ in that class.

Likewise a STU prepped STI or EVO is 500-600 pounds lighter than an S197, and it has AWD, and makes nearly as much power. Even limited on 245mm tires they can and will beat a well prepped STU Mustang at the top levels... but daily driving a 5.0 Mustang is a lot different than any of these other cars, and on a road course the tables are often turned. My 2013 GT is 7 seconds a lap faster on a 2 minute road course than me driving the 2013 BRZ... horsepower works when you're not in a parking lot situation.

DSC_8949-S.jpg
_DSC4968%20copy-S.jpg


Long story short - if all you care about is SCCA Solo competition, well... you should probably not be buying Mustangs. ;) Corvettes and Miatas are much better classed/protected at all levels within this club. But if you are like a lot of us and want a car that can do a lot of things well (street, autocross, track, drag race) and not break the bank, an S197 GT does fit the bill, and STU is the best all-around class for this chassis in Solo at the moment. Don't fool yourself into thinking it will win at the top levels, but it can do well locally and then still drive you to work or hustle around a road course with the same set-up.

That's just my 2 cents. Keep asking for more tire, too.
 
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cito

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"...STU is the best all-around class for this chassis in Solo at the moment."

As in the best street tire class or the best street-able car class?

Taking the term chassis to mean the S197, the best classes in terms of being winnable are probably FS, ESP, and maybe CP. CP and ESP might take the "all-around" piece out. FStock is winnable in a 2007-2008 Shelby GT (obviously), and, if you are Strano, a 2011+ GT. FS cars are a good all-around car.

Fstreet will be interesting given that they have integrated most of the DS RWD cars into the class, but my hunch is the Shelby's will remain the car to beat. Maybe they will let the Boss 302's into the class to shake things up a bit. The BMW's will also make things interesting. The Camaro 1LE might even have something to say.

I understand not liking that the Mustang does not have a good fit in street tire classing. At the same time, its hard to complain when the Mustangs have a good chance in 3 different classes.
 

Whiskey11

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Project Tilty Update time! The Midwest Divisional Championship at LAP-N

Yup, it's that time again (Time for another Toilet Duck update! :p)! The nice thing is that this is a two day event with TONS of photos and videos to watch!

Project Tilty remains largely unchanged but someone managed to torque my arm into buying a torque arm for this car... well... ok, that someone was ME. Soooooooooo that said, the only things that changed were a freshly rebuilt Traction-Lok with the Carbon Fiber clutch packs, a Ford Racing finned differential cover (!!!!!!!!!!!GASP!!!!!!!!!!!!) and a Cortex Racing Torque arm.



Why the Torque Arm? Weelllllllll..... lets get into some more tech talk. In SCCA's Street Touring and Street Prepared class, there are things live axle cars can't do, like, say, relocation brackets for the rear lower control arms or relocate the chassis side of the UCA. Add in lowering the car to get to a sane ride height for autocross (IE: Not 4x4) and you tend to lose a lot of forward bite. This is a product of the change in antisquat which comes with a number of negatives. One of the things we CAN do is add a torque arm. Basically a torque arm is an arm that is rigidly mounted at the axle end and in a sliding bushing at the chassis end. Basically it's constrained in the vertical direction and lateral direction but free to plunge and extend in the longitudinal direction. The way the torque arm geometry works, the instant center (huge in finding your % antisquat [%AS]) is located in the vertical plane that is perpendicular to the torque arm, at the arm's chassis mounting point. The torque arm does one other fun thing with the force of the pinion gear trying to climb the ring gear in the differential. In the stock 3 link setup, when you step on the gas, the bottom of the differential moves forward because of the insanely soft bushings in the control arms allowing it to tuck under as a reaction to the pinion gear trying to climb the ring gear. With the torque arm, that same action can't occur since the torque arm constrains that reaction. When you step on the gas, that action pushes the chassis end of the torque arm up into the chassis and thanks to Mr. Newton's laws, the opposite has to happen at the axle end, it gets planted into the ground.

To crunch the numbers, the stock Mustang has between 32%-35% antisquat from Ford. Lowering my car the 2.3" in the rear for autocross competition resulted in about 18.60% AS. Adding the torque arm brought it back up to 30.97% which is basically back to stock. The kicker is that it does it without impacting the roll steer characteristics that are associated with relocation brackets. Hopefully this would translate to earlier throttle application and better power down.

Sounds great! What are the disadvantages? There are a few... the most commonly talked about is brake hop. Brake hop in a torque arm is the exact opposite reaction to what happens when you step on the gas. The torque from the brakes (and engine braking) try to rotate the top of the diff forward, but because of the constraints of the torque arm, it tries to lift the axle up. That action can lead to brake hop if the arm is extremely short or you run lots of antisquat through relocation brackets (see drag racing).

The other disadvantage is weight and NVH. While NVH doesn't matter for a race car, it does for people looking at street cars. Terry Fair has yet to find an UCA except stock that doesn't make a lot of noise and the Torque Arm setup I have certainly isn't an option either. I'm not complaining, I knew it would happen! The weight disadvantage isn't huge, but there is one. Basically a torque arm is heavier than the UCA setup. How much so, I forgot to weigh, but it weighs less than the complete Fays2 Watts link (29lbs). If I had to guess, I would say the mount, the diff cover, and the arm probably total up to 30lbs of weight as an extreme estimate.



Of course, because I like to hassle the STAC/SEB, I decided to write a letter asking for an allowance for rear control arm relocation brackets and the ability to replace the rear lower control arms. Here is that letter #12063:

"Dear STAC/SEB, before I begin the rest of the letter I would like to quote the Street Touring description in the 2013 rule book as I will be refering back to it quite frequently in this letter:

"The Street Touring® category of vehicle modifications is meant to fit between the current Stock and Street Prepared categories. This category provides a natural competition outlet for auto enthusiasts using affordable sports cars and sedans equipped with common suspension and engine modifications compatible with street use."

Next I want to congratulate the STAC and SEB and hopefully the BOD soon on helping destroy a perception issue with pony cars in ST. While none of us are expecting to win in STU, the removal of the 9" wheel width and 265 wide tires has already made a reasonably profound impact on future ST participation. I'm in conversation with about 4 people in the pony car world who are jumping to STU for a Nationals oriented car and about 4 other "serious locals" who are either staying in ST (from STX) or are stopping in STU on the way up to ESP. You've not only reduced that perception but you've reduced the cost barrier associated with ditching the narrow wheels and buying wider ones going to ESP by allowing us to get those wheels and run in STU! Thank you again for that!

While we have that momentum though, there are two modifications in the live axle world that I personally think would go far in attracting and retaining people who drive live axles cars that are extremely common and inexpensive to add. Those modifications are the rear lower control arms and rear lower control arm relocation brackets for the axle side pickup points. Let me explain why I think these modifications deserve to become allowances in ST and SP:

1.) Commonality: If you go to any Mustang or Camaro forum and ask what your first suspension modification should be, near the top of that list is going to be lower control arms and relocation brackets, ESPECIALLY if you decide to lower your car. There are a number of reasons for that ranging from a cure for wheel hop to better forward bite from lowering which I will cover shortly, but the amount of times I see it recommended is very high. It's high enough on the list of "first mods" that on one of the Mustang forums I am a member of, we get a few threads a week asking if they are "truly" necessary and the discussion almost always involves explaining how they aren't truly necessary right away but are strongly recommended later in the cars life.

These modifications are common enough that classing first timers coming from outside the SCCA becomes a massive headache in explaining why these mods that they have land them in C-PREPARED despite being one of the least expensive and most common modifications to a Mustang or Camaro. Of course we could explain how they could also play in Street Modified with a dozen other STI's, Evo's, narrow BMWs and high HP GT-R monsters however the perception there will definitely keep them from coming back.

2.) Price: I'm using one suspension parts supplier (BMR) for this demonstration because they happen to have both third and fourth generation Camaro and S197 chassis lower control arms and relocation brackets that they sell. The cost for the S197 (05-14 years) Mustang lower control arms ranges from $139.95 for a simple poly bushing, boxed DOM, control arms all the way up to $349.95 for CNC machined 6061 T6 aluminum control arms. The first is by far the most commonly sold one. Their S197 relocation brackets cost $149.95 and are 100% bolt on, no welding required. The no welding required includes sub 10 second quarter mile time S197's weighing in at 3500+ (their GT500 ran 9.XXX on these bolted in on drag slicks).

For the fourth generation F-Body Camaros and Trans Ams the control arms range from $149.95 all the way up to $289.95 and the relocation brackets cost $109.95 for a complete bolt in set of brackets.

As you can see, these are not expensive parts in the grand scheme of things and yet they have such a profound impact on live axle handling that they are common first modifications to cars.

3.) Performance: While it is no doubt that the commonality of lower control arms and relocation brackets has to do with the popularity of the pony cars in drag racing, there are some distinct advantages that come from these modifications in the autocross world. First and foremost, axle hop caused by soft factory bushings which are designed to allow the rear axle to articulate without too much bind (ignoring all Fox Body and SN95 Mustangs of course! ;) ) is cured or mitigated with replacing the lower control arms. The upper control arm on S197 cars and the Torque Arm on the third and fourth gen Camaros is already free to be replaced and is the other axle hop mitigating allowance.

The instant center adjustment provided by the relocation brackets allows lowered live axle cars to regain some forward bite caused from the control arm angle change reducing the amount of anti-squat available to the car. While high amounts of antisquat are not necessarily desireable from a handling perspective, retaining SOME antisquat helps these cars put down more power but more importantly it makes the car more FUN to drive because you don't turn your $1500 set of Hoosier A6's or $1300 set of RS3's into expensive smoke any time you look at your gas pedal. On my own car, the factory %AS number is around 34%. Just from lowering my ride height to the still-too-tall-to-be-an-ST-car ride height in the rear of my car I'm down to somewhere between 5%-8%. Under the current rules, due to floor pan constraints there is no way for me to pull that number up by relocating the axle side of the UCA and there is no legal allowance for changing the bracket that holds the UCA in place to lower the axle side (understandable considering that the 05-14 Mustangs are the only cars I know that have such a bracket separate from the Unibody). The only legal modification in which we can do is to exploit the Camaro's Torque Arm allowance and run a torque arm which gets me up to %28 antisquat but with that comes a weight disadvantage and the potential to introduce rear suspension murdering brake hop.

These modifications impact more than just third and fourth generation Camaros and Trans Ams and the 05-14 Mustangs, it also comes with something that makes racing an older Fox Body Mustang (or any fox body for that fact) and SN95 Mustang much more SIMPLE by reducing the cost of developing a weight jacker setup that sits on the rear lower control arm. For these guys, the rear springs are located on the rear lower control arms which in combination with the awful bindfest masqerading as a rear suspension in the car isn't the most ideal setup but under the current rules these guys are required to develope a weight jacker setup that sits on the lower control arms just to corner balance their cars. This requires some custom fabrication that adds to the cost of what is supposed to be your two least expensive class for modified cars. The aftermarket has dozens of weight jacker control arms that have adjustable built in spring perches that would allow for ride height and corner balancing changes to be made to the car without spending the money to develop a complex weight jacker setup to work on the stock control arms. These weight jacker arms are also far more safe than anything that sits on the stock control arm is.


So here is what I propose for the new allowance to say:
14.8.G.X: The lower arms may be removed, replaced, or modified and the pickup points on the rear axle housing may be relocated using bolted on or welded on brackets attached to the factory control arm mounting positions on the axle.

As you can see, the wording is pulled directly from the upper arms allowance (currently 14.8.G.4) with a part added on that should limit these brackets to the same plane (in front or rear view) as the factory mounting points. I can even see adding a provision that says that you can either relocate the upper control arm axle side or the lower control arm axle side but not both. This is not new as a similar statement is made for strut cars and replacing the lower control arm as being allowed so long as it is the only form of camber adjustment on the car.

I would like to thank you again for helping remove the perception barrier of Pony cars in ST with the move to STU and I hope that the move in combination with the above allowances will help the SCCA keep and retain a crowd that isn't interested in building their car as a dedicated SCCA autocross cars but something a little more "universal" that they can take to the drags on Friday nights and then come out to the autocross event on Sunday.

Thanks again,
Chris"
Ok, enough about the "changes" to the car, on to the actual event after action!

Midwest Divisional Championship Day 1
The Day 1 course was the west course from the 2012 Solo Nationals. This course was ran in reverse during Spring Nationals and we ran it after Nationals last year. It's a fun and fast course with lots of places to lose time if you don't do pay attention!



The class consisted of 4 total cars, myself in the Project Tilty 2009 Mustang GT, Doug Hitchcock's BMW E36, a Cobalt SS and an FRS. All of the cars in the class were prepped pretty well for STX, everyone was on good tires so it was good competition all around.

Course map:
7BqiT.jpg


To be honest, I don't remember the exact times but my fastest was like a 64.596 which to be perfectly honest, felt like a rather large disappointment. When we ran this course locally last year, I ran a 65.197... Considering 20mm of tire was added, coilovers with stiffer springs, camber, torque arm and less weight, I was expecting a bit more than basically half a second. Of course, caveat being that it's impossible to compare times from events that far apart, same course or not!

So how did the car drive? Well, it is a learning experience due to the changes but the car felt good while driving. The RS3's didn't like the cooler weather that much but once we got to the third runs they started to work fine. The torque arm itself felt almost exactly the same as the 3 link setup, at least initially. I tried applying power earlier, and it seemed to tolerate it better than the stock setup but it wasn't a huge life changing event to the suspension. More seat time will be good.



My fastest run would leave me in last place going into day 2 which sounds REALLY familiar! My fastest run was also slower than Dave W's RTR 2013 5.0L Mustang which is a lot backwards. Dave is a much better driver though and he was on 10mm wider tires! Excuses, I HAVE THEM!



Midwest Divisional Championship Day 2:
Day 2 would be the east course from the 2012 Solo Nationals but I think they changed the ring of fire some from Nationals and made it more oval than round.

Course Map:
dNy8g.jpg


If you were not fortunate enough to run this course at Nationals in 2012, let me tell you, you were missing out! Not only is this course a visually challenging course but it is an absolute HOOT to drive as well! I would say, so far, of any course I have driven, this ranks at the top of my favorite courses. That said, I didn't drive it all that well but I really set out to have fun and relearn the car more than win anything. My fastest time was in the 75 second range. This would put my "total" time at 140.xxxish and last in STX just a second behind the third place guy after two days. Supposedly everyone ran slower times than when they ran it last year for Nationals so who knows if that was a "course change" thing (I swear the ring of fire was more like an oval than a ring) or what it was but it was good for NOT DFL at Nationals Last year, if I was at Nationals last year, this past weekend! ;)



The results haven't been posted yet so I don't have the official times for either day.

What now? Well, every event with serious competition has really, really tweaked the urge to just buy A6's and do the ESP build and deal with the softer spring rates and "weight" disadvantage. I'm "clued in" on buying used A6's for regional events and having a set of nicer ones for the National Tours. I'm going to continue to hold off until things settle down financially. The cost of Nationals, the Midwest Divisional, the Test'n'Tunes and the solo event with the house I just bought, the Torque Arm, the replacement parts for parts I have etc are a bit steep for my taste.

STU sounds like fun but I'm not sure I want to go through the hassle of buying new wheels/tires to run in a class where the car wont be competitive either. I supported the move because I WANT a place to play in ST for Mustangs and this is the safest way to hopefully have the STAC add tire width without the risk of upsetting a class. That said, I have to satisfy my competitive itch TOO and I think the car will do better in ESP now until the cars get some help in ST. The decision is kind of painful to be honest...



That said, what is really next is the Nebraska Region Pre-Nationals Test'n'Tune where stiffer swaybar setting up front, no swaybar out back and a combo of both will be tested. The seat time gained will hopefully prepare me well for Nationals. After that is our regular autocross solo points event in which Dave W has offered to co-drive (how could I refuse? He did raw time me this weekend in a STOCK Mustang on street tires!) of which I have agreed to. After that, Evo Test'n'Tune where hopefully I can get some good seat time as well as some instruction (hopefully?) and then Nationals!



To think the car is "this ready" for Nationals after having just bought a house, moved into said house, added what parts I have to it, and so on is mind boggling. When this is over, there will be a collective sigh of relief! :)
 
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It took me awhile to clip this post, I didn't do it to be a dick, even if it reads that way.
More seat time will be good....

..... My fastest run was also slower than Dave W's RTR 2013 5.0L Mustang which is a lot backwards. Dave is a much better driver though....

Seat time makes you a better driver, that is what makes you faster. Parts make the car easier to drive. I sell parts, not driver instruction, so that is a pretty unbiased opinion.


STU sounds like fun but I'm not sure I want to go through the hassle of buying new wheels/tires to run in a class where the car wont be competitive either. I supported the move because I WANT a place to play in ST for Mustangs and this is the safest way to hopefully have the STAC add tire width without the risk of upsetting a class. That said, I have to satisfy my competitive itch TOO and I think the car will do better in ESP now until the cars get some help in ST. The decision is kind of painful to be honest...

Weak sauce. Throwing Hoosiers at an STX car does not make a national contender and you know it. NOBODY has waved the "S197 to STU" flag more than you...not even Fair. Bailing now is lame, crap! you haven't even been to Nationals yet. 11" wheels will run the 285 street tires just the same as the 315 hoosiers, so only one wheel purchase.

It's disappointing to spend money and come in below expectations. See the heap in my avatar? I know where you are at right now. You think Mustang parts are expensive? I have cut, welded, and modified enough parts to build another car. When it takes a 60 ton press to set camber, you know you are in uncharted territory. I learned the hard way. I thought I could "man" my way to a trophy if I bought enough cool stuff and put it on. You can't, no one can. I started autocrossing with Goodguys and got clobbered regularly. When I started with SCCA I got clobbered regularly (and still do) but Goodguys was a cake walk. I won 6 of their national events in a row because I OUTDROVE my peers. I wasn't that good, I was just less bad than the rest of my class. GG changed the rules because myself and Rob McGregor (NoLimitEngineering) won so many events. You get one win per season now. We bought our S197 and went to STX and there it was, reality check like a ton of bricks to the face. There is much to be learned.

There are guys born with talent, Popp, Strano, Maier, and Hobaugh come to mind. The rest of us have to work at it. Hell, my wife drives better than I do and I have the times AND data to prove it. The only thing worse than money not making you faster is realizing, your accountant wife is on the throttle earlier and harder than you are. Stick with the street tires, the car is fine. SCCA doesn't hand trophies to new guys very often.
 

Whiskey11

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It took me awhile to clip this post, I didn't do it to be a dick, even if it reads that way.


Seat time makes you a better driver, that is what makes you faster. Parts make the car easier to drive. I sell parts, not driver instruction, so that is a pretty unbiased opinion.

Yes, I'm aware and if you think I'm skipping out on ST before the big show, you are mistaken. Dave is going to be co-driving with me next Sunday, on Saturday I'll be testing out some different bar settings to see what works with this car. Changes were made that were not small by any stretch, the T-Lok rebuild a lone could account for what I'm experiencing. Seat time will always be important.

That said, we don't want to forget the data point with my co-driver at the Nebraskhana event. He's a National level driver, and I'm willing to bet in the right car he would be a contender for the top trophy spots. He and I ran pretty similar times. I refuse to accept that it was anything more than LUCK on my part which is why I'm glad Dave is driving with me next Sunday! More data from people who obviously don't suck! :)


Weak sauce. Throwing Hoosiers at an STX car does not make a national contender and you know it. NOBODY has waved the "S197 to STU" flag more than you...not even Fair. Bailing now is lame, crap! you haven't even been to Nationals yet. 11" wheels will run the 285 street tires just the same as the 315 hoosiers, so only one wheel purchase.

It's disappointing to spend money and come in below expectations. See the heap in my avatar? I know where you are at right now. You think Mustang parts are expensive? I have cut, welded, and modified enough parts to build another car. When it takes a 60 ton press to set camber, you know you are in uncharted territory. I learned the hard way. I thought I could "man" my way to a trophy if I bought enough cool stuff and put it on. You can't, no one can. I started autocrossing with Goodguys and got clobbered regularly. When I started with SCCA I got clobbered regularly (and still do) but Goodguys was a cake walk. I won 6 of their national events in a row because I OUTDROVE my peers. I wasn't that good, I was just less bad than the rest of my class. GG changed the rules because myself and Rob McGregor (NoLimitEngineering) won so many events. You get one win per season now. We bought our S197 and went to STX and there it was, reality check like a ton of bricks to the face. There is much to be learned.

There are guys born with talent, Popp, Strano, Maier, and Hobaugh come to mind. The rest of us have to work at it. Hell, my wife drives better than I do and I have the times AND data to prove it. The only thing worse than money not making you faster is realizing, your accountant wife is on the throttle earlier and harder than you are. Stick with the street tires, the car is fine. SCCA doesn't hand trophies to new guys very often.

Yes, throwing Hoosiers on an STX car doesn't make a national contender for ESP, ignoring both Terry's build (ESP aero, wheels and tires) and the Bergstrom/Dollmeyer Mustang which was an STX car prior to being an ESP car (ESP Aero wheels and tires again IIRC). I don't disagree entirely with your notion that it wont be that much easier there for this car.

I championed the move because I want a place to play in ST. A set of 18x10.5's (because I can't stand not having a square set up to rotate tires) would easily carry some Ho-Ho's in ESP. I'm not expecting to be handed a trophy but the car at least has a prayer in ESP. Eventually that is where this car will be anyway. I have no doubt that a stop in STU will be made but for how long has yet to be seen. I don't know how long I will put up with the year long waits for every tire allowance before moving on. That is all I'm saying. We are in STU now, we are can have our fun but I just don't see things happening at a pace that can sustain my interest. I've run in STX for two years, this last year the closest to a complete ST car that I can afford right now and things aren't looking very good here either. That's two years of 3+ seconds to the first place spot. What will happen with 285's after the second or so drop from the tire change when the nearest car is still 4+ seconds ahead and raw timing ESP cars? I am stubborn as hell but I'm also a competitive person by nature and odds like that, plus long change times for allowances wont keep me from wanting to leave for a more competitive place.

As for throwing money at the car, indeed, I have, to get the car at least some what close to "prepped" for Nationals. To my knowledge this is the only "showing" of a Mustang in ST at Nationals. A few tried at tours and gave up and they were more prepped than I am. That is the only reason I'm throwing money at the car. I am expecting it to drive better with each investment of time and money, not worse and worse.

The driver mod is always a work in progress, it is for us and it is for those who are born with talent. I doubt there is a day where Sam sits back and says to himself "That was a perfect day of runs for me! Nothing to improve on here!" so don't assume that I'm throwing money at the car and expecting to win. I'm throwing money at the car to make it easier for me to have a proper representation of the car. Do you honestly think that if I felt that the driver was done needing mods I would have signed up for the test'n'tune here locally AND the Evo one? Honestly? Do you think I would have asked openly for co-drivers for next weekend and Nationals? If I was "perfect" or an "alien" I don't think I would be too worried about wanting other people's opinions on my driving and car setup. Hell, the whole reason I'm attending Nationals and why I attended Spring Nationals and the Midwest Divisional was to put myself against people who were pretty much guaranteed to smoke my ass to show just how far I have to go! I've met some great people in the process.

Once again, I don't think I'll be in STU much more than a year and change. Probably however long it takes to burn up the next set of tires. It will have to be played by ear. I AM frustrated because of my competitive side showing through. I want progress and it's just painfully slow. Part of "getting over that" is going to be venting.

EDIT: Also, this guy is seriously interested in the next generation Mustang's Ecoboost 4 banger for autocross duty so by the time a lot of changes have been made, my car will be LONG gone.
 
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Venting is good.

In the short time I have been doing this, one of two things happen now. You commit, and continue to improve the whole package or you throw your hands up and leave to join the hardparkers or the minivan brigade or worse.

Just trying to nudge you away from giving up.....again, I understand frustrated.
 

Whiskey11

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Videos!

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Day 2:
Run #1:


Run #2:


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Run #5:
 

Vorshlag-Fair

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"...STU is the best all-around class for this chassis in Solo at the moment."

As in the best street tire class or the best street-able car class?

Streetable car class. Other than Stock/Street and Street Touring, the other categories in SCCA Solo are for race cars.

Taking the term chassis to mean the S197, the best classes in terms of being winnable are probably FS, ESP, and maybe CP. CP and ESP might take the "all-around" piece out. FStock is winnable in a 2007-2008 Shelby GT (obviously), and, if you are Strano, a 2011+ GT. FS cars are a good all-around car.

Well they have a shot in ESP, if Madderash doesn't show up and you turn an S197 into a completely stripped to the rules, max-built race car with 1000# springs. CP? Haven't seen anyone willing to cut up an S197 yet, and even if they did, the S197 has a LOT of weight to lose to make minimum. FStock is pretty much down to the 2007-8 Shelby.

DSC05126-X2-M.jpg


And F Stock cars handle for crap. Stock springs are for the birds. ;) That's the first thing most Mustang guys change - and for good reason. Seriously, these cars are parade floats suspended on marshmallows with enough ground clearances to run the Baja1000. Sure, you can have custom shocks built costing $5000+ in Stock, and $1500 worth of gumball Hoosiers, but you cannot change $200 worth of springs? That is just.... a weird set of rules. I get having an "entry level" class with minimal mods, but that's not what Stock is at all. Stock class is broken.


Fstreet will be interesting given that they have integrated most of the DS RWD cars into the class, but my hunch is the Shelby's will remain the car to beat. Maybe they will let the Boss 302's into the class to shake things up a bit. The BMW's will also make things interesting. The Camaro 1LE might even have something to say.
F Street is a failure before it has begun. The SEB weaseled out on most of the good proposed changes needed from Stock to Street ("camber for all", limits on shock spending, etc) and the 5th gen Camaro is always going to be a heavy turd. Thinking the SEB will allow the Boss302 in FS? Not a chance. Check back in 20 years, then maybe (it took over 10 years for the Camaro SS to be allowed into FS!) Unless it is a Honda, Miata or Corvette it doesn't get classed well in SCCA. Even though the Boss302 has almost nothing in extra performance over the GT, it doesn't matter - these rules makers just don't know enough or don't care enough to see.


I understand not liking that the Mustang does not have a good fit in street tire classing. At the same time, its hard to complain when the Mustangs have a good chance in 3 different classes.
Well, I think that's a bit of a pipe dream - the SHELBY Mustang has a good shot in ONE class (FS). The rest of the S197s have a good shot at 2nd place in ESP. That's it. For a car this popular, raced this often at track events, and sold in these numbers, that's just not good enough.

The popularity of a car and the numbers of people who race them does not bear any weight on how they are classed in the SCCA. All I'm saying is: It should.

Just my 2 cents.
 
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