S197 Mustang in SCCA Solo: STX vs STU vs ESP?

[Norm Peterson]

Hence start with the 200 treadwear, anything else goes. That's a whole lot more in line with the Pro-Touring world anyway, which already has some presence in the One Lap and Optima Challenge arenas.

I'd expect such a class to eventually evolve as disparities become apparent, but let's wait until they do to the point where the people in that class start writing their own letters suggesting some sort of division instead of worrying about the vaporware nature of that now. It'd be just one more way of putting confusion and pickiness over "the rules" in the way of exactly the people that the new (sub) category would ostensibly be trying to attract. Pistol, my foot is over there . . .

The last thing you want here is to either provide basis for protests or incentive to "work the grey areas" all the way into outright cheating. IIRC, ST has been there once or twice already.


Norm

 

[Whiskey11]

Hence start with the 200 treadwear, anything else goes. That's a whole lot more in line with the Pro-Touring world anyway, which already has some presence in the One Lap and Optima Challenge arenas.

I'd expect such a class to eventually evolve as disparities become apparent, but let's wait until they do to the point where the people in that class start writing their own letters suggesting some sort of division instead of worrying about the vaporware nature of that now. It'd be just one more way of putting confusion and pickiness over "the rules" in the way of exactly the people that the new (sub) category would ostensibly be trying to attract. Pistol, my foot is over there . . .

The last thing you want here is to either provide basis for protests or incentive to "work the grey areas" all the way into outright cheating. IIRC, ST has been there once or twice already.


Norm

Yes, and ironically I was told over on the Sandbox that instead of moving to STU, I should just show up to Nationals this year on 285's and 18x10.5's and run in STX and then DSQ myself afterwords. Aside from blatant cheating, which is a huge violation of my own moral code, it WONT prove a point other than Mustang owners are finicky bastards who try to cheat the rules to their advantage (well what competitor isn't? ) and it will do the exact opposite of what we want. I would rather flounder in STU for a few years of absolutely getting my ass handed to me (not that things are better in STX anyway) to prove a point on tire widths than to cheat in STX.

I only have one minor exception and that is if the diff cover rule changes, I'm not going to have Filip make me a special mount for the axle side of his Torque Arm, I'll just buy his diff cover provided it fits with the Fays2 Watts link. I've already told several of my competitors and I'll be doing it at Nationals as well. Thankfully, diff covers provide absolutely zero performance benefit and I'm sure the part I'm replacing is actually heavier than the stock stamped steel one.

 

[dontlifttoshift]

Hence start with the 200 treadwear, anything else goes. That's a whole lot more in line with the Pro-Touring world anyway, which already has some presence in the One Lap and Optima Challenge arenas.
Norm

A PT index already exists. Junior uses it at the super shootouts. I would be all for the PT class and some regions already use it, Indy for example. 200TW, everything else open, unlimited car eligibility on a regional level would be fantastic, at a national level it would just turn into CP on 200TW tires. I would still love to have that class, that's where my heart is anyways.

 

[Whiskey11]

Well, the official FasTrack is out and it is verbatim what we saw in the minutes. Mustangs to STU, diff covers can be swapped with surprisingly no limitations on what they can be swapped for and with. Hell, you can even run an upper control arm with a spherical in it (but not at the diff end)!

So... Terry, does this mean you are coming back to ESP now?

Alright, so who's jumping to STU next year? I am, not that that wasn't obvious.

 

[sholzer]

Most likely me depending on how this set of hoosiers last the rest of the season. I'm at about 34 runs on them and they're looking perfect. I'm going to flip them after the next event though.

Going to try and save up for a watts link and/or coilovers in the offseason. Not sure how much longer I can stay on these soft pro-kit springs...

 

[boardkat]

Alright, so who's jumping to STU next year? I am, not that that wasn't obvious.

me. i've got some awesome local benchmarks, too - multi-jacket STU guy geoff clark and all his cronies - so i'll know pretty quickly where i stand. well, probably not until mid-june, when it finally stops raining, lol. i expect this to end in tears, but i have no qualms about whoring myself out at tours/pros/nats in other people's cars if my investment goes for naught until we get a wider tire allowance. or until i can fully loosen the pursestrings and head to ESP

 

[dontlifttoshift]

Yep. STU it is.

In the meantime, still trying to win a regional class jacket in STX.

 

[white86hatch]

STU here as well. Slowly but surely I'll be ready for next year.

 

[Vorshlag-Fair]

Well, the official FasTrack is out and it is verbatim what we saw in the minutes. Mustangs to STU, diff covers can be swapped with surprisingly no limitations on what they can be swapped for and with. Hell, you can even run an upper control arm with a spherical in it (but not at the diff end)!

http://scca.cdn.racersites.com/prod/assets/13-fastrack-aug-solo.pdf

Look what they snuck in at the top:

Unless noted otherwise the effective date for all new rule, class, and listing change proposals herein is 1/1/2015

So that means none of these rule fixes, such as the diff cover/watts link update will take effect in 2014... so it looks like we have to wait ANOTHER freagin year. Good grief, these clowns have two speeds: SLOW and STOP!

Write your letters.... maybe this date was a mistake? But to me, everything they write manages to looks like a mistake, so....???

TECH BULLETINS
Note: Per Section 3.1, second paragraph, of the Solo Rules, any newly-classed vehicles added via listings published after the July issue of Fastrack are not eligible for competition in the current year’s Solo National Championships. The current issue is August, hence any added make/model listings shown below, while effective immediately upon publication for all other events, are not eligible for the 2013 Solo Nationals.

So, if anything is in a FasTrack after July it will take effect next year. Which means some of the classing things are applicable in 2014? But the top part said 2015. Which is it?????? (Facepalm) I honestly don't know if the right hand is talking to the left in this group.

So... Terry, does this mean you are coming back to ESP now?

Uh, no.

Add a new 14.8.G.6 as follows:
“6. Differential covers and attaching hardware may be replaced.”

They re-interpreted the watts link "unrestricted" mounting wording in 2012, said they'd fix it immediately, took 8 months to write a 7 word rule allowing them, then will sit on it for 2 years so the fix won't take effect until 2015? They've managed to add yet ONE MORE YEAR to the already slow and arduous process of fixing the watts link/diff cover rule they botched last Fall.

Meetings. Committees. Waiting. Delays. Stalling. Its what you do in the SCCA.

Alright, so who's jumping to STU next year? I am, not that that wasn't obvious.

Well, will the new classing take effect in 2014 or 2015? Will C5 Corvettes be classed with stick axle McStrut Mustangs? Who knows... I don't think the rules makers do, by the way.

Want to know the answers to these latest SEB mysteries? KEEP WRITING LETTERS... http://www.sebscca.com/

 

[csamsh]

Alright, so who's jumping to STU next year? I am, not that that wasn't obvious.

So...if 2015 is a typo (it's in red, I doubt it) I have a new plan. Next year I'll run ESP with 315 Rivals, all the while comparing times to STU. This will not be a scientific test, as it will only be one sample, but the PAX'es are close enough that it will "kind of" be like I'm running STU anyway.

 

[dontlifttoshift]

So...if 2015 is a typo (it's in red, I doubt it) I have a new plan. Next year I'll run ESP with 315 Rivals, all the while comparing times to STU.

This was my secondary plan. There is an "R" class in Chicago where all of us on street tires in a Hoosier class run together on index. 315s would be a nice fit, although a little short. We'll see what the 19" sizes are when they are available.

 

[csamsh]

This was my secondary plan. There is an "R" class in Chicago where all of us on street tires in a Hoosier class run together on index. 315s would be a nice fit, although a little short. We'll see what the 19" sizes are when they are available.

Yeah agreed. 315/35/18 only comes in Kumho V710, which I'll finish this year on. 19x11 wheels just sound....heavy. But a 27" 315/35/19 would be cool. That's only available in R6.

 

[lost won]

SCCA changes (good grief, Charlie Brown!)

Yeah, ugly. If most of this doesn't change until 2015, it just doesn't matter. The new Mustang with IRS will make the current stick axles obsolete by then, not to mention the chaos in Appendix A, version (X?).

I'm going to sell the Hoss and buy a boat; but NOT before I read the boat rules!

Turn up the volume, go to full screen; and enjoy: (Yes, it's work safe.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ec00p53HVoA&feature=youtu.be


Have a great day, all.

 

[csamsh]

Yeah, ugly. If most of this doesn't change until 2015, it just doesn't matter. The new Mustang with IRS will make the current stick axles obsolete by then, not to mention the chaos in Appendix A, version (X?).

I'm going to sell the Hoss and buy a boat; but NOT before I read the boat rules!

Turn up the volume, go to full screen; and enjoy: (Yes, it's work safe.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ec00p53HVoA&feature=youtu.be


Have a great day, all.

Yeah I'm quickly wanting to just build my car how I want to build it and run street mod "for fun"

 

[dontlifttoshift]

Yeah, ugly. If most of this doesn't change until 2015, it just doesn't matter. The new Mustang with IRS will make the current stick axles obsolete by then

VERY good point. Maybe that's the diabolical plan. Insert Kanye West saying "SCCA don't care 'bout pony cars"

 

[modernbeat]

SCCA doesn't care about SPORTS CARS, despite their name.

The cars that get punished the most by the rules? Porsche and Lotus.
Cars that are protected? Miata and Corvette.
Cars that never catch a break? Pony cars.

Yet they spend years debating classing and allowances for Nissan Sentras and Honda Civics.

 

[Conekiller]

Guess I'll have to decide if I want to stick it out in stx until 2015, if that's not a typo, or order some 18x11s for myself as a christmas gift and run esp on street tires locally next year. Part of me likes the stx challenge, part of me wants to experience the car with proper amounts of tire under it.

 

[Whiskey11]

@Terry: From over on the Sandbox from Mark of the SEB:

*****,

Quote:
Originally Posted by Whiskey11
Mark
So the Live Axle section is going to have two 14.8.G.6's? One for the "Methods of attachment and attachment points are unrestricted but may serve no other purpose (e.g. Chassis stiffening). This does not authorize removal of a welded on part of a subframe to accommodate the installation." and for the "Differential covers and attaching hardware may be replaced." line?! I'm assuming the Methods of attachment nonsense will actually be 14.8.G.7?

Just trying to help clarify!

Its going to have a line that says "screw all these special live axle only allowances".



The clarification applies today. The diff cover thing will be a new line item next year. They will be numbered differently.

Mark

Not sure on the wording for the STU move though... I'll ask, then write in asking for sooner rather than later unless they plan on adding wider wheels/tires for live axle cars.

@Sholzer, holy crap brake dive...

Looks like about 5 yays for a total of 6 (including me) so far. I would say that'd make a pretty reasonable showing across the Nation... all things considered that is. I'm not entirely sure on the move though... another year in STX would save me some money on wheels/tires and numbers/letters and provide some valuable seat time before going wider (stepping up the grip levels!).

 

[NDSP]

I'll be going STU also, but after seeing it may not be until 2015, I'm inclined to build my car the way I want and race it in what ever class they see fit to put me in. Really the only difference my build will have, is relocation brackets and possibly wider tires. It isn't like I was going to be competitive anyway. No coil overs, stock 3V drive train. So it is more for my pleasure.

 

[2008 V6]

SCCA doesn't care about SPORTS CARS, despite their name.

The cars that get punished the most by the rules? Porsche and Lotus.
Cars that are protected? Miata and Corvette.
Cars that never catch a break? Pony cars.

Yet they spend years debating classing and allowances for Nissan Sentras and Honda Civics.

Nothing has changed in the way SCCA procrastinates / debates for the last 30 + years. This is why there are so many other organizations - Quite a few of which were started because the organizations were fed up with the Politics, Dick swinging & profit motivated decisions being made.