Stay with Strange or upgrade to bilstein ?

djclark

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Hello,

I have a 2012 mustang gt with :

- Strange shocks/struts
- BMR front/rear adjustable sways
- BMR SP009 Springs
- Steeda LCAs
- BMR LCA Reloc brackets
- BMR Watts Link

I recently ran over a friggin ladder on the turnpike. It looks like the only damage is a blown passenger side strut. I get a clunk over sharp bumps.

So the question I put before you guys - is it worth the money to go to bilsteins w/ k springs ?

http://www.vorshlag.com/product_info.php?cPath=141_142_179&products_id=642

Or should I just replace the one broken strut ? I'm kinda in between. What would you do ? Is there that much of a difference in ride ?

Car is 95% daily/5% race car.
 

djclark

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Strange shocks are for drag racing primarily. What kind of "racing" are you doing?

That was kinda in jest. But when I do its HPDE and Drag. That's originally why I went the adjustable route. I currently have they set at 7front and 4 rear for daily driving.
 

Sky Render

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Well, you should never replace only one damper. You should replace both on that end of the car.

Also, the Bilsteins you linked to are not adjustable.
 

djclark

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Well, you should never replace only one damper. You should replace both on that end of the car.

Also, the Bilsteins you linked to are not adjustable.

Ya, I get that. I'm just wondering if the Bilsteins are bad ass enough to do both. Handle really well and not get too in the way drag racing.

Out of curiosity, why don't you typically just change one dampener ?
 

Sky Render

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Dampers are like tires. They wear out. And the last thing you want is a damper on one side that is more worn than the other.

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WJBertrand

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Drag racing shocks have their damping set almost the reverse of what's needed for road driving. They have reduced rebound damping to allow quick weight transfer to the rear wheels and heavier compression damping. Almost all conventional shocks are designed the other way around. Unless you do a lot of drag racing, I think the Bilsteins are the best way to go.
 

Sky Render

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Or you could go with Koni or even Ford Racing if you don't want to spend the coin on Bilstein shocks and you're just driving on the street mostly.

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kcbrown

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Thanks guys. I ordered the vorshlag bilstein/k spring setup last night.

Figured what the hell. If my 60' drag racing suffers - so be it.

this one - http://www.vorshlag.com/product_info.php?cPath=141_142_179&products_id=559

Excellent. When you get it, please tell us your impressions.

Actually, I have an unusual request. Would it be possible for you to have the Bilstein dampers dynoed before you put them on? I did that with my Koni Yellows and it proved pretty eye opening. I'd love to see what the damping curve looks like for these.
 

csamsh

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Excellent. When you get it, please tell us your impressions.

Actually, I have an unusual request. Would it be possible for you to have the Bilstein dampers dynoed before you put them on? I did that with my Koni Yellows and it proved pretty eye opening. I'd love to see what the damping curve looks like for these.

Maxcyspeed did dyno plots for those exact dampers a while back....if you look through Terry's galleries, I believe they're either in the 2011 mustang project gallery or the bilstein products gallery
 

csamsh

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Ask and ye shall receive. Had the rears anyway


Bilstein-rear-s197-scan-XL.jpg
 

MechE

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As a total noob to damper dyno plot: is that force in pounds? Seems low to my brain if it is in pounds.
 

kcbrown

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Maxcyspeed did dyno plots for those exact dampers a while back....if you look through Terry's galleries, I believe they're either in the 2011 mustang project gallery or the bilstein products gallery

Aha. Yes, and they have both.

The front:

Bilstein-front-s197-scan.jpg


The rear:

Bilstein-rear-s197-scan.jpg
 

Norm Peterson

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As a total noob to damper dyno plot: is that force in pounds? Seems low to my brain if it is in pounds.
Critical damping is in units of force per unit velocity rather than force alone. A typical "lowering spring" might be 200 lb/in and the corner mass something like 1000 lbs / 386.4 in/sec^2 . . . need to work this in consistent inch & lbs units.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Damping_ratio

Scroll down to the "Definition" section.

You don't necessarily need or want to run at 100% critical damping, either.

picture.php



Norm
 
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kcbrown

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Critical damping is in units of force per unit velocity rather than force alone. A typical "lowering spring" might be 200 lb/in and the corner mass something like 1000 lbs / 386.4 in/sec^2 . . . need to work this in consistent inch & lbs units.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Damping_ratio

Scroll down to the "Definition" section.

You don't necessarily need or want to run at 100% critical damping, either.

picture.php



Norm

Yep.


What follows, of course, is no substitute for driving a car with them installed. I just want to make that clear for anyone who's listening who might think that by analyzing the damping properties of the Bilsteins, I intend to somehow provide a substitute for driving on them. I have no such intention here.


For an apples to apples comparison against the Konis, I'll look at the average between 2 and 3 inches/second rebound.

For the Bilstein fronts, that average is right about 50 lbs/(in/sec). This is slightly higher than the very highest damping of the Konis, but not by all that much (the Konis max at 44). It does make a larger difference than one might think in the amount of spring it can properly damp, however.

50 lbs/(in/sec) in the front puts you past critical damping for the Steeda Sport springs (but barely so), and right at critical for the Steeda Competition springs. The damping is also right at critical for the average critical value for the Ford K springs.

Now, remember that this is for 2-3 inches/second, which is slower than what you'd get for most bumps. The above Bilstein damping rate extends to about 4 in/sec, at which point it drops dramatically (to about 20 lb/(in/sec)). The reason for the digressive valving is likely for ride quality, as well as better adhesion over bumps (the two are very strongly related).


So what of the rear? Well, that's more interesting. The (rather sharp) elbow in the damping curve for the rears is at 2 in/sec! Before that point, the rate is about 60 lb/(in/sec). Between 2 and 3 in/sec, it's at about 15 lb/(in/sec). After that, it's even less (about 10 lb/(in/sec)). I'm really not sure what to make of that. It's substantially overdamped for most lowering springs (which are in the 190 lb/in range in the rear, which is critically damped at around 39 lb/(in/sec)) until you get to 2 in/sec, and then it's substantially underdamped from there. There may be some handling advantage to that (reduction of turn-in understeer, perhaps?)...

With 50 lb/(in/sec) damping up front, the Bilsteins will be good for rates up to about 525 lb/in up front (assuming a cutoff of 65% critical), at least for handling. With spring rates that high up front, they may prove underdamped for ride.

It would be interesting to know what spring rate combinations work best with the Bilsteins. Based on the relative damping rates, and the fact that the rears go digressive far earlier than the fronts, I suspect the Bilsteins are really intended for setups with notably higher rates up front than in the rear. The mild lowering springs, like the Steedas, are probably at the low end of what you want to use with the Bilsteins. The Bilsteins will overdamp stock springs for sure, at least up front.


And that tells me that the markets Koni and Bilstein are targeting are actually mildly different. Koni is targeting the stock to mild-mid (400 lb/in up front) lowering spring market, while Bilstein is targeting the mild to medium-high lowering spring market. If you need spring rates that are too high for the Bilsteins to properly damp, then you're really talking about coilover-level rates.

The designs are consistent with that as well. The Konis apparently don't do so well (in terms of longevity) with springs that drop the body too much, while the Bilsteins are intentionally designed with the center of motion lowered under the assumption that you will use them with lowering springs (which means springs with correspondingly higher than stock rates).
 

Mark Aubele

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I should have my Truechoice revalved Konis back on Monday, will start a thread with before and after dynos. Will be running 800/350 springs.

Speaking with them, after seeing the dyno they said they most certainly weren't enough for the 550s I was running, but after a year of racing and street driving with springs that were way too stiff they dynoed like new.
 
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modernbeat

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KC Brown, on your analysis of the Bilsteins, nice, but you forgot about motion ratios relative to shock speed. That 2" per second is actually a little bit faster than that in roll, and exactly that in straight line bump.
 

kcbrown

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KC Brown, on your analysis of the Bilsteins, nice, but you forgot about motion ratios relative to shock speed. That 2" per second is actually a little bit faster than that in roll, and exactly that in straight line bump.

That's true, of course, and I did indeed forget about that. I'd actually love to get info on what motion ratio I should be using for the dampers in the rear. They're not mounted vertically relative to the axle, as I recall, so some of the motion will be due to the mounting angle, while the rest will be due to however much the axle-side mount is inboard of the wheel center. The former part of the motion ratio will be in effect for both roll and bump, whilst the latter will be in effect only for roll.

Would you happen to have the figures for those two things handy? In looking at photos, it appears the angle is something like 20 degrees, but clearly it depends on how much compression there is (most photos are of the suspension in full droop). The mount point seems to be quite close to wheel center, particularly if you're using a relatively wide wheel (10 inches or so).
 
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djclark

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Just got my shipment notification. So I assume I'll get them next week sometime. Can't wait.
 

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