Supercharger #3. Procharger D1SC

[sportinawoody]

hate to side track you but do you remember what timing and commanded afr in the frpp calibration for your whipple was ?

 

[HEMI LOL]

Final update. Have installed 95lb Bosch Racing injectors which are fantastic from idle to redline, very predictable and precise. Ran into a problem being able to make a full pull. Have since rectified that problem and made a few full pulls.

I'm going to keep the rpms below 6500. This motor has way more power going through it than it was set up for. I'm running Mahle flattop 4032 pistons with .0015" ptb clearance. That's a little more than the GT500 spec for a stock motor. Pistons are .030 overbore. It's a 1L WAP block from a 2004 Mach 1. I had originally intended for this to be an na only motor but things changed.

SAE corrected and Uncorrected numbers on E85. I'm including uncorrected because that is how much force is going through the motor components. Spark was only around 19 degrees. Load was over 2.3! Boost indicated 16+ on my cheap analog gauge.

I'll spend the afternoon going over datalogs and tweaking the a/f. I didn't want to spend too much time doing it on the dyno. Just wanted to get it close and safe and turn off the money.

 

[BruceH]

Sweet numbers Bruce! Not much faith in your build or what?

I'm not sure I follow. Joke or serious?
I have faith in how it was put together but I'm a realist. There are limitations to every build. I don't want to build it again. The motor actually made 699 in todays conditions, figure in a 15% drivetrain loss and it's over 820hp from 285 cubic inches. That's over 2.8hp per cubic inch which equals alot of stress on the motor components. Load was over 2.34 which means it's flowing as much air as a 667 cubic inch motor at 100% volumetric efficiency.

I'm not a stress engineer or engine builder for that matter so all I can really go by is data and the experience of others. The data shows that Ford has mod motors figured out imo. I purposely followed what has worked for them in other high output mod motors like the GT500 and Terminator because of the high horsepower reliability reputation they have. At this point the motor is beyond design limits imo.

Here are all the things I've done wrong:

Kept stock clearances, used a WAP block, stock replacement main bearings, used Mahle flat top 4032 pistons, didn't torque plate hone, used a stock crank, stock 3v oil pump, didn't lock out the phasers, used stock head bolts and main bolts, still have the stock cats on with JBA shorty headers. It also has 127400 cams which are designed for na. The ring gaps were set for forced induction though.

I had intended this build to make about 400rwhp na. That was the goal anyway. I think the motor is beyond any kind of "safe" limit. I do get some personal satisfaction from how it's performing and how docile it is in traffic.

 

[danbogart]

Beautiful!!!! Look forward to seeing it on the 16th!


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[recordbreaker5]

I'm not sure I follow. Joke or serious?
I have faith in how it was put together but I'm a realist. There are limitations to every build. I don't want to build it again. The motor actually made 699 in todays conditions, figure in a 15% drivetrain loss and it's over 820hp from 285 cubic inches. That's over 2.8hp per cubic inch which equals alot of stress on the motor components. Load was over 2.34 which means it's flowing as much air as a 667 cubic inch motor at 100% volumetric efficiency.

I'm not a stress engineer or engine builder for that matter so all I can really go by is data and the experience of others. The data shows that Ford has mod motors figured out imo. I purposely followed what has worked for them in other high output mod motors like the GT500 and Terminator because of the high horsepower reliability reputation they have. At this point the motor is beyond design limits imo.

Here are all the things I've done wrong:

Kept stock clearances, used a WAP block, stock replacement main bearings, used Mahle flat top 4032 pistons, didn't torque plate hone, used a stock crank, stock 3v oil pump, didn't lock out the phasers, used stock head bolts and main bolts, still have the stock cats on with JBA shorty headers. It also has 127400 cams which are designed for na. The ring gaps were set for forced induction though.

I had intended this build to make about 400rwhp na. That was the goal anyway. I think the motor is beyond any kind of "safe" limit. I do get some personal satisfaction from how it's performing and how docile it is in traffic.

I think you have perfect reasoning to not want to push it anymore than you already have. I think it's a good choice to do so. The motor will def last longer at 500hp vice 800hp. When I saw you post load @ 2.3 , I was thinking that's quite a bit lol. Even more reason to turn it down with what you stated on what was used to build the bottom.

 

[BruceH]

I think you have perfect reasoning to not want to push it anymore than you already have. I think it's a good choice to do so. The motor will def last longer at 500hp vice 800hp. When I saw you post load @ 2.3 , I was thinking that's quite a bit lol. Even more reason to turn it down with what you stated on what was used to build the bottom.

IMO the most important thing I did with the bottom end was to use arp2000 rod bolts and have my no name h beam rods inspected by the machine shop prior to assembly. I'd also put having a quality balance job in that catagory too.

The machine shop makes or breaks a build imo, the rest is just assembly work. The shop I used has modern equipment capable of meeting the ra requirements for modern motors. They also had the ability to measure the finish. You would be surprised at how many shops said they could do the machine work but suddenly got quiet when I asked how they measured ra.

At any rate the drivetrain combo is right where I want it with the exception of the axle tubes. Everything should be strong enough that a weak link won't be exposed.

 

[8306gt]

Paxton: Nice street manners, lots of power up top. For lack of a better term I'll say it just doesn't "spool up" as fast as the procharger due to the 3.6 drive ratio. It's also not an apples to apples comparison because the D1 can move 1400 cfm while the Paxton SL moves 1200 cfm max. A better comparison would be the bigger Paxton/Vortech (2000 and ysi?). Still, the Paxton is a great value. IMO it needs to be converted to blow through to get the most out of it.

First and foremost congrats on getting the car to this point, it appears to be running well and certainly making nice power. Is this with GT500 pumps and 40 amp BAP and your new 1000 cc Bosch injectors?

The only thing I would correct is the Paxtons cfm ratings; 1200 = 1150 cfm, 1500 = 1200 cfm, 2000 = 1400 cfm, 2200 = 1450 cfm, YSI = 1600 cfm, 2500 = 2000 cfm, keeping in mind that really only the 1200, 2200, and YSI are setup to fit an S197.

 

[svtadam27]

Nice numbers Bruce! I've enjoyed reading through your builds, great info and results. From what I remember wap blocks were good to 750-800whp but I've heard of ppl making 1000+ through them.

 

[BruceH]

First and foremost congrats on getting the car to this point, it appears to be running well and certainly making nice power. Is this with GT500 pumps and 40 amp BAP and your new 1000 cc Bosch injectors?

The only thing I would correct is the Paxtons cfm ratings; 1200 = 1150 cfm, 1500 = 1200 cfm, 2000 = 1400 cfm, 2200 = 1450 cfm, YSI = 1600 cfm, 2500 = 2000 cfm, keeping in mind that really only the 1200, 2200, and YSI are setup to fit an S197.

Yes, stock lines, GT500 pumps, 40a bap, 8 gauge power wire, and Bosch 95lb injectors. Max pump duty cycle was .859 and the fuel is E80 right now. Injector pressure drop was down to 34psi vs 39.15 commanded so I'd say the fuel system is at it's max right now.

You are correct, the 1200 Paxton flows 1150 so it's even less of an equal comparison.

Nice numbers Bruce! I've enjoyed reading through your builds, great info and results. From what I remember wap blocks were good to 750-800whp but I've heard of ppl making 1000+ through them.

Thanks. I have no idea what the WAP block is good for. I've heard and read different things. There wasn't much difference between it and the 3L when I compared them but I didn't know what to look for. I've seen more experienced comparisons that went into detail about what was beefed up and where. Still, alot of the information that's passed around is based on opinion. I've read of a WAP block breaking at 800 hp but that was it, no mention of internal parts or tuning. I've also seen pics of the new 5.0 blocks breaking at under 800 but again no mention of internals.

 

[lostsoul]

looks good G.. I keep fighting the need to upgrade to d1sc and then another 500 again for a tune. ahhh

 

[Doug M]

^^Do it

 

[BruceH]

looks good G.. I keep fighting the need to upgrade to d1sc and then another 500 again for a tune. ahhh

A D1 would look good under your hood. The time to buy it is during the intitial purchase. IIRC it was a little over $200 more to upgrade from the P1. I almost went with the P1 and noisy gears but changed my mind before the order had been placed.

 

[Mike K]

I was just curious in why you decided not to push it any farther. I didn't realize you were still on the stock crank and a wap block. Great numbers Bruce. I wish to be there one day.

 

[BruceH]

I was just curious in why you decided not to push it any farther. I didn't realize you were still on the stock crank and a wap block. Great numbers Bruce. I wish to be there one day.

It's also a shit ton of power. More is always better but there is a point where it's usefulness diminishes, probably somewhere around 500-550 on the street imo. I think we get desensitized by all the big power cars on this site.

I don't get power ratings on motors anyway. I understand that better components reduce the likelyhood of catastophic failure but there just isn't a guarantee it won't happen. We have seen some very well built motors break on this site. I'm even debating going from 4.10 to 3.73 just so the revs are less at the end of the quarter mile.

 

[Doug M]

well said. I would agree when the power gets to a certain level, It's just for bragging rights then. But I guess it's still fun, sadly I would not know.

 

[danbogart]

Bruce, i showed Dellinger your graph today. Pretty sure he may have pooped a little.

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[BruceH]

Bruce, i showed Dellinger your graph today. Pretty sure he may have pooped a little.

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Lol, I told him about it on Saturday. I suppose seeing it is a little different than hearing. He really needs a real tune instead of the Procharger one he's running but I can't convice him.

 

[danbogart]

Lol, I told him about it on Saturday. I suppose seeing it is a little different than hearing. He really needs a real tune instead of the Procharger one he's running but I can't convice him.

He told me that he thought you said 560. Ha ha.


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