Supercharger for Road Racing

[sheizasosay]

Not yet lol!


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[SoundGuyDave]

Some answers to the questions about the car in the video:

It's an SN95, driven by Chris Griswold, multi-time AIX national champion. I don't crew for him, nor can I afford to LOOK at his Renegade hauler, so specific data points are purely IIRC.

347 stroker, turbo about the size of a small Great Dane in the back seat, trunk-mounted intercooler, and at Road America in 2011, when he hit 192mph on the front straight, his AIX windshield banner delaminated from the airflow... FWIW, he has TWO AIX Mustangs, the turboed SN95 (arms race with Rocco and Faesler) and an N/A Fox body. He also has and runs a Spec Miata, and at Nationals in 2009 (Won AIX that year as well, with a 1:59.229) he started 13th, finished 4th. Yes, he can drive. For another look at the car, take a look at the front page of the AIX rule book HERE.

 

[SoundGuyDave]

You’re down near Putnam aren’t you? I’ve been telling a friend that we need to get down there this year for a TD. I’ve got a billion laps around there on a bike, some race wins and was flirting with the lap record for a while. I love that track! If we can make it down there maybe you could show me the fast way around?? This car stuff is a completely different puzzle than the bikes.

Actually, I'm on top of Autobahn, but I do get down to Putnam on occasion. I usually go with NASA, HOD or MVP, so if you're thinking of heading that way, drop me a PM, and I'll see if I'm going down or not. F'n work occasionally (frequently?) gets in the way of things like racing...

 

[SoundGuyDave]

Putnam's actually pretty simple when you break it down a bit. T1 is faster than you think it is, is slightly on-camber too, which helps. H/T down a gear between 1 and 2, apex late through 2 and get on the throttle early, slide the car out to the edge heading into 3. Tap (on the brakes)-and-go into 3, early apex, and track out right to the apex of 4, with a momentary pause before you make the left-hander. STAY TO THE LEFT all the way through 4, since the right side of the corner drops off camber pretty badly. Accelerate early and hard, use the rumbles at exit. 5 is a standard late-apex right, 6 is a right-hand kink, and depending on speed and braking grip, you may need to touch the brakes straight-line between 5 and 6. Short straight between 6 and 7, ALL on the brakes, get it whoa'd up! 7 just sucks, very tight right hander, and with the coarse asphalt, if you overcook the entry, you WILL chew the left-front off the car in a very few laps. Use the rumbles at exit from 7, hard on the power, and transition right to set up for 8. Late brake, then trail-brake into 8, aiming to put the asphalt seam-sealer line just to the right of your left-hand tires, then start feeding in the gas. Maintain that center-line (right side is off-camber, full of marbles, and leads to a fence and hay bales), then pull the car into a late apex clipping point, hard on the throttle. Use the berms at exit, both of them, and you will run across the "times square" section of asphalt. It's uphill through there, so grip is EXCELLENT, you can carry more speed and throttle than you think.

Neat shot, kind of shows the line through the apex of T8.

Exit of T8: you can see how much load I'm transfering over to the outside tires...

Transition over to the left edge, aiming for a center-entry point, not all the way out. I treat T9/T10 as a single, sweeping, double-apex corner. First apex at 9, keep adding throttle, let the car push wayyyyy wide, then a little lift on the throttle to tuck the nose in for a late-apex line through T10, and you're hammer-down all the way back towards T1. Between T9 and T10, if you put your left-rear tire FIRMLY on the pit exit road, and roll over the berm, you're in the perfect spot to charge T10.

Putnam is hardly what I would call my "home track," but I get around it pretty reasonably, and will be happy to share what I know with you. Since you have a bunch of laps there, hopefully the landmarks and lines I'm suggesting trying ring a bell, or at least will serve as a hint.

 

[LindsayEOD]

Thanks for that review Dave. I plan on going there April-May with 10/10th and will put this advice to use.

 

[knownukes]

I would guess upwards of $150,000 plus keeping it running and putting tires on it. It probably costs $7,00-10,000/weekend to run it when everything is added up. And that is if you don't crash it or blow it up. Your right, that is not playing around money.


Shut your mouth!

Notice on the last 2 laps on the front straight when Chris doesnt need to push to get by cars, he is backing out of the throttle at 167/168 mph instead of 174 mph. He is also short shifting and coasting into the braking zones. Anybody running a FI car knows that he is heat managing. In my car I watch the water temp gauge more than anyother. When it gets hi, I short shift and coast into braking zones until the temps go down. Usually 1-2 laps. I've been in on track battles and spewed coolant all over the engine compaertment(a bitch to clean up).

Chris's car is very well known in NASA. It has a ton of R&D, engineering, fabrication work and testing. It is a very well sorted out package the he has spent alot of time and $$$ to get it where it is today.

I love my car. I love the push in the back and being able to run down cars when I have all that hp. But often it is not available and I'm managing temps. If I had it to do over again, I'd trade 500 N/A rwhp for the 700 FI rwhp I have. I would have as much, if not more fun because I'd be able to run hard for a full session all of the time. I'd also save $ on fuel and brakes(pads & rotors). Don't think when you add that hp and your terminal speeds go way up, that you brakes will last as they have. My rotors last 6-8 track days. I have the 6 piston Baers with 14" 2 piece rotors. So a set of rotors are about $1000, the pads are about $600. Remember my earlier post, about $80 of fuel per session(25 Minutes). You do the math and see if that fits your budget.

Also, to get the proper cooling Chris and the guys that compete with him at the top of AIX have heavily modified their cars to get the cooling they need. Holes, ducting and optimum placement of heat exchangers that you wouldn't do to a street car.

I am not telling you not to go FI. I'm just trying to make sure you go in eyes wide open. I'm trying to let people learn from my experince and maybe save them some $$ and frustration.

When it's <75 degrees outside, my car is a beast!! And I love it. Over 80 degrees not so much.


Bill

 

[Scruffy]

Keep the blower in it's range is big. I think with a decent upgraded heat exchanger and the right pulley you will get a lot more consitency out of your car on a road course. I'm not a big fan of the afco dual fan HE, but that puppy would sure as hell shine on your cool down lap and when you have to park while the next group goes out on the track. Pulley swap on a blower is easy for a lot of units. You could always have a street/ 1/4 mile pulley setup and then when you goto the road course have a pulley that isn't so overzealous.

I got heat soaked pretty good, but was still hitting only 5mph less on the straights from my first cold run of the day. That is acceptable to me, but I would prefer zero loss. I'm willing to wager my car did a LOT of cooking when it was parked. Having that dual fan HE would probably be where it's at, unless you wanna get all high tech and get the Killer Chiller or something.

Me personally, I would grab that blower you want and just use the pulleys as "heat tuning". Road courses aren't the only place we enjoy our cars.

I had issues in the pits between sessions with my GT500 and a non-fanned AFCO unit. The car would normally level out its IAT2s on the track, then after the cool down lap and shutting it down in the pits, the IAT2s would soar by the time I was out for the next run. A few easy laps were still hard to bring it down. After switching to the Revan fanned unit the issue is virtually non existent in 'normal' ambient temps.

 

[sheizasosay]

Yeah I believe that. I used to think twin fan afco's would only shine at the strip for multiple runs , but parking in between sessions is parking in between sessions regardless whether it's a road course or drag strip. I don't believe they would serve any benefit at speed though.


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[wa2fst4u]

Running a Vortech V-3 on the '06 GT. Ran it at a couple road race tracks and after a few laps the water temp would creep up to 240*.

Next time out I had the A2A IC connected. No issues at all with temps after 20min of running. Max temp was 204* on the last 10/10 lap - back down to 197* on cool down.

Never driven a roots type SC so I have nothing to compare, but the centrifugal is so RR friendly on corner exit! It come's on gradually and then sets ya back in the seat!!!

Wouldn't have it any other way - especially since mine is a daily driver.

Video from last event:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lEasuPQpiIo&feature=youtu.be

Dyno'd 504 rwhp.

 

[sheizasosay]

But that's part of the fun!


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[barbaro]

Who needs a supercharger or a turbocharger? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LOlP7NNdiQ8 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jfpM9IUoI4k I ran this car at Big Willow on a 102 degree day. Ran like it was on the freeway. Temperature never went above freway normal. Tiger racing hood helps a lot. 522rwhp is more than enough for me and it runs just as hard on lap 6 as lap 1. Going out again to test the Cortex Torque arm and Watts link combo on April 21, 2013. If anybody in Southern California is interested in joining me, PM me.

 

[jymontoya]

Who needs a supercharger or a turbocharger? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LOlP7NNdiQ8 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jfpM9IUoI4k I ran this car at Big Willow on a 102 degree day. Ran like it was on the freeway. Temperature never went above freway normal. Tiger racing hood helps a lot. 522rwhp is more than enough for me and it runs just as hard on lap 6 as lap 1. Going out again to test the Cortex Torque arm and Watts link combo on April 21, 2013. If anybody in Southern California is interested in joining me, PM me.

Very nice numbers, but Very peaky. Where's the torque? Only 378 lbs/ft ? And all the way up at 5600?

I can only speak for the Saleen S/C, but it makes 400+lbs/ft from 2500-6000 rpms. The flexibility from a flat torque curve like this cannot be denied. It's much easier to rocket out of the corners with this kind of torque.

I'm sure your car is amazingly fast, but IMHO, Horsepower is for marketing and Torque wins races.

 

[Department Of Boost]

Temperature never went above freway normal.

What temps? IAT's or ECT's?

 

[Marc s]

I don’t want to be misunderstood here.

If I were doing 3-4 track days a year and driving the car on the street all the time I would not give up my blower for ANYTHING!

Now if I were doing 1+ track day a month and the car was more track focused (bar, big brakes, stripped interior, slicky tires, towing it to track, etc) it would be NA for sure.

As much of a PITA the heat is on the track it doesn’t even get close to outweighing the ability to dip the clutch and smoke the tires at 60mph when cruising around town.

There is a lot of truth here. When my car was 90% street car and 10% track car. Procharged 700+ whp was great. But when my car went to 1% street car and 99% track car, I made other mods that allowed me to push my car harder and I couldn't control the coolant temps any longer. So I bought a NA Cup engine from Yates.

Don't forget that when it comes to boost and heat as long as the blower is not being over spun 8psi will make "X" heat no matter what blower you are running. A Procharger making 8psi will have the exact same discharge temps that a Whipple running 8psi will. If you are looking for low IAT's it will come down to what you are doing to cool those discharge temps.

Keep in mind if you run a blower with a air-water intercooler you can set it up to run the cooling system between sessions. I run all my pumps and fans between sessions and it helps out TREMEDOUSLY. Can't do that with a air-air setup.

Good luck.

I have to disagree. On my car with 20lbs of boost, my IAT's are 20-30 degrees above ambient. The discharge temps on a Procharger are cooler because of the design of the impeller and the fact that it doesn't absorb heat from being in the engine valley. I have a MD1750 3000hp dyno and have done extensive datalogs on most power adders on my dyno and on the track. Also, if you have a good AtoA, there isn't any reason to cool it in the pits. As soon as I pull out onto the track, my IATs drop to just above ambient.

+1 for the vote to always stay NA for track cars.

We do a lot of track events, and I've been going to these for 25+ years. The number one type of problem I see at these events is engine failures from boosted cars. It is a combination of heat soak, insufficient cooling capacity, and that dreaded "just a little more boost" bug that bites people when they get greedy. Most of my friends in college and many after were "boost junkies" and would come do track events ... but most of them had serious engine trouble.

Even factory turbocharged cars have problems all the time. At the last NASA event I competed in, two of the Time Trial EVOs scattered motors on track, and those are stout iron-block Mitsubishi motors.

Superchargers are great power adders for drag racing, and even fun for street use, but they just don't have the reliability for sustained Wide Open Throttle, high load, heat soaking, lap-after-lap road course use. Not in HPDE, not in W2W racing. You can just never make boosted engines as reliable as an NA motor, and they will always be fuel/heat/knock sensitive. So VERY few W2W road race builds are boosted, and this is for good reason.

Sure, some infrequent HPDE events - where you only take a few hot laps at a time - it can work. In events that focus on getting only ONE fast lap time - Global Time Attack - almost ALL of the entries are CRAZY boost buggies. But those guys make 1 or 2 laps in a session and come in... when we ran GTA the only cars that stayed out the entire session, making a LOT more laps, were the NA cars.

I cannot deny that power potential of a supercharger or turbocharger. Or even nitrous. Chemically adding oxygen (N2) or "un"natural aspiration (boost) will always make more ultimate horsepower than NA. This works, just not for a long time under sustained use on track.

Just my two cents.

I have to agree 100%. Mostly because I was one of the boost junkies. Once I got my brakes, suspension and down force sorted out, 734whp was great for 5 laps. After that, my coolant was 240 and climbing. I was down 160 HP due to my tune pulling timing. And of course, having close to zero timing didn't help my cylinder and coolant temps. Again, this is why I sold my Procharged 4.6 and went to a Yates 358ci Cup engine and cooling system. I haven't had it on track yet so I can only speculate if it will be successful.

I'm not sure who the non-RRer is...As the OP, I am looking at options, not yet convinced...however, I might be soon...

I appreciate Terry Fair's comments and others that have recommended the N/A approach to Road Racing...less moving parts, less to break, less to maintain, easier to tune, less weight...etc. However, I was trying to get some more oomph out of the current car without having to swap motors (coyote/boss option), swap cars (sell this, buy a new GT/Boss...which I will do in a year or two!), rebuild the motor with forged internals and upgraded heads, cams (already moved to FRPP Mani, Comp Stage 2 SPR, Headers)...so that last option would be FI or simply stay under powered against the Z06s, new GTs and M3s.

The reason for the Procharger choice was two-fold...one, a system is readily available and two, it seems like the better choice for RR...less heat soak, power band mostly in the mid to upper rpm range, less weight that most TS or similar...So am I will to drop 4k on an 'experiment' for another 70-100 rwhp and chance the motor...F...it...it's only money!

I think that with 3 row intercooler, some routing of air via boxing behind the front valance, the Tiger Racing hood for air/heat extraction, running only 8-9PSI, I might have a reasonable setup that would stay cooler than high hp setups, give me the additional power that I want and hopefully keep the stock motor together.

Plus the final reason...I can't sit still long enough...I have to change shit and experiment with new stuff!!! Really, are any of us ever satisfied?!

If you keep the boost under 12 psi, you won't have any cooling issues.

"GREED IS GOOD"


Yes, reading many threads, including that link you sent on PCDRJs car, are telling the same story


The 127500 cams work great...with the FRPP Mani and Pypes/x-off road, the thing is a beast...I currently run the car to a 6800 redline and it's still pulling. The 127500 are mid to high range cams, great for road racing, but lose some down low streetable torque. They really woke up this engine. My dyno sheet shows the HP still rising at 6150. I have another sheet where we ran to 6400 and got 372..can't find it. Here is the 6150 dyno sheet (disclaimer: STD correction):

FWIW, here is the dyno sheet for my Procharged engine. I had Comp 127550 cams and ported heads.

 

[Moochman4life]

Running a Vortech V-3 on the '06 GT. Ran it at a couple road race tracks and after a few laps the water temp would creep up to 240*.

Next time out I had the A2A IC connected. No issues at all with temps after 20min of running. Max temp was 204* on the last 10/10 lap - back down to 197* on cool down.

Never driven a roots type SC so I have nothing to compare, but the centrifugal is so RR friendly on corner exit! It come's on gradually and then sets ya back in the seat!!!

Wouldn't have it any other way - especially since mine is a daily driver.

Video from last event:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lEasuPQpiIo&feature=youtu.be

Dyno'd 504 rwhp.

I'm with this guy: Vortech V3, around 500whp and 420wtq, still street-friendly enough to DD when I feel like it. But I'll also say that I've never seen my IAT's go over 151. I keep my Diablosport Trinity mounted while on track and cruising around town. I'll be the first to say I'm not a 10/10 guy...and maybe the track where I started monitoring IAT's is never the "fastest" per say (Shenandoah Circuit, Summit Point). I've got a date at VIR in a May, though, so we'll see how she reads, then.

Here's one of my better sessions, and on a warm day, too:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-LzYqLlrBEw

 

[2008 V6]

I have to disagree. On my car with 20lbs of boost, my IAT's are 20-30 degrees above ambient. The discharge temps on a Procharger are cooler because of the design of the impeller and the fact that it doesn't absorb heat from being in the engine valley. I have a MD1750 3000hp dyno and have done extensive datalogs on most power adders on my dyno and on the track. Also, if you have a good AtoA, there isn't any reason to cool it in the pits. As soon as I pull out onto the track, my IATs drop to just above ambient.

(20 - 30 Degrees above Ambient is very impressive at 20LBs)

 

[Department Of Boost]

I have to disagree. On my car with 20lbs of boost, my IAT's are 20-30 degrees above ambient. The discharge temps on a Procharger are cooler because of the design of the impeller and the fact that it doesn't absorb heat from being in the engine valley.

I was referring to the temp increase you get by compressing air. It doesn’t matter if the compressor is 100% efficient there will always be heat generated when air is compressed. At 100% efficiency it is about 9.9deg/psi. Of course no blower, turbo, etc is 100% efficient so that is a best case “fantasy” number.

I just wanted to illustrate that any compressor creates heat, and at 20psi A LOT OF IT, about 200deg at 100% efficiency! So factor in a 75deg day and a realistic blower efficiency and you could easily top 300deg pre intercooler. No matter how you stack it that is a lot of heat to shed.

Not calling you a liar, but that seems very, very optimistic to me and maybe needs to be qualified. Are you saying if you were to make a 10sec WOT pull at 20psi with your old Procharger setup the IAT’s would only be 30deg over ambient when you shut it down? If so that is impressive.

 

[19COBRA93]

I was referring to the temp increase you get by compressing air. It doesn’t matter if the compressor is 100% efficient there will always be heat generated when air is compressed. At 100% efficiency it is about 9.9deg/psi. Of course no blower, turbo, etc is 100% efficient so that is a best case “fantasy” number.

I just wanted to illustrate that any compressor creates heat, and at 20psi A LOT OF IT, about 200deg at 100% efficiency! So factor in a 75deg day and a realistic blower efficiency and you could easily top 300deg pre intercooler. No matter how you stack it that is a lot of heat to shed.

Not calling you a liar, but that seems very, very optimistic to me and maybe needs to be qualified. Are you saying if you were to make a 10sec WOT pull at 20psi with your old Procharger setup the IAT’s would only be 30deg over ambient when you shut it down? If so that is impressive.

I agree. The IAT's I was seeing with my Procharger were considerably higher. Especially at the drags. My whole system would heat soak so bad, I couldn't start out a run under 150 degrees, let alone end one at that.

I suspect sensor placement as one reason to see cold IAT's like that. With my maf (and integrated IAT sensor) mounted at the intercooler my IAT's generally read close to ambient or within 20-30 degrees on WOT runs. But, once I moved my sensor to the intake manifold, that's when I got a true reading of what the motor was actually seeing. It's a night and day difference.

 

[05yellowgt]

I agree. The IAT's I was seeing with my Procharger were considerably higher. Especially at the drags. My whole system would heat soak so bad, I couldn't start out a run under 150 degrees, let alone end one at that.

I suspect sensor placement as one reason to see cold IAT's like that. With my maf (and integrated IAT sensor) mounted at the intercooler my IAT's generally read close to ambient or within 20-30 degrees on WOT runs. But, once I moved my sensor to the intake manifold, that's when I got a true reading of what the motor was actually seeing. It's a night and day difference.

I'd see very low AIT's on my Procharger during "closed course" testing. At the strip it was a different story. AIT's would be an at acceptable level till I went through the burnout box. One particular day when it was in the low 90's ambient and I was data logging I would see 180* temps off the line and it rose as high as 205* by the end of the track. Part of that was that I was seeing 27psi of boost at redline, but I was only running a 4.3" pulley. My motor had a lot of restriction somewhere that I never figured out. I know the stock heads, cams and intake were part of the problem but I got rid of the car instead of letting it sit in the garage collecting dust after my kids were born.

 

[Marc s]

Are you saying if you were to make a 10sec WOT pull at 20psi with your old Procharger setup the IAT’s would only be 30deg over ambient when you shut it down? If so that is impressive.

On the front straight at Seattle, my highest IAT recorded were 118 degrees on a 89 degree day at 172mph. On that day, my coolant temps were over 240. I did have Prochargers upgraded A2A though. On a comparable day, the IATs on my 07 GT500 with a small pulley was just over 200 degrees. Either way, both cars were pulling timing and losing HP. My 08 GT because the coolant temps were high and my GT500 because the IATs were high.

For drag racing, I would rather have an air to water. In that arena, cooling the water in the pits would be very beneficial. An air to air doesn't work well for drag racing because as we know, you need air speed across the intercooler for it to work. By the time the intercooler cooled the air, the run would be 1/2 over.