Suspension setup advice

[Department Of Boost]

I believe he meant cheap coilovers are the great way to ruin a perfectly good street car.

I’m thinking cheap anything is a good way to ruin a car.

 

[Department Of Boost]

No offence taken man, I agree with you. Most novice level drivers do not know. That is why I try to get into thier head and put myself in the drivers seat with them to get another persepctive. I think every experienced driver owes that to a novice driver to help teach and develop.

I agree 100%. That’s why I’m trying to help the OP with the benefits of my extensive suspension design/tuning experience, my familiarity with the chassis and the 10,000 or so laps I have turned at Putnum (at one time I even had the lap record there).

I don’t usually post about suspension topics (and I am regretting wasting my time here). For the most part people have no idea what they are talking about and don’t want to listen. There is a little bit of that going on in this thread. Its frustrating.

gmitch are you running linear springs? What rates are you running?

350 front/250 rear, and I may bump the rears up to 300. They are linear.

I am sorry but I could not recommend linear spring rates on a daily driver. 99% of highways are paved very nice and smooth which is ok but if you are on local roads, rainy/snowy weather you are going to have to manage your driving a little more carefully.

In my experience progressive rate springs suck at everything. I wouldn’t recommend them to anyone unless all they wanted to do was slam their car. Granted I don’t have a lot of progressive rate spring experience (2 sets). The little I have had was all bad though.

OEM springs are linear.

 

[Department Of Boost]

I’m getting frustrated with some of the bad information being given and what you are about to do with it. So bear with me if I come off “prickly”.

I really only wanted some advice on what people were running suspension wise on their cars.

There is a bit of “mistake" built into that approach. Asking the masses for suspension advice has an inherent flaw. It assumes that firstly they have a clue about what they are talking about (most don’t) and secondly that they can drive well enough to be a judge of anything (most can’t).

Maybe suggest what the first things they would do to their mustang if they had 2-3k to spend.

I did that.

I have decided to go with koni yellows, bumpsteer kit, camber plates, possibly fays2 watts link and see how the car feels at Putnam. I'm sure the koni's will make a huge improvement. The car seemed to have quite a bit of under steer at Putnam

Arrrrrrgggggggggg!!!!! Not one thing on your list of stuff you are planning to buy will do anything for your understeer. Not your fault, you got some sketchy advice.

You need SPRINGS to get you car to stop understeering, especially at Putnum where the loads are so high. And “sporty” springs are not going to cut it. And if you go with springs you need good dampers to control them. Please re-read all of my posts. I wrote those mainly for your benefit. In one of them I explain the what needs to be addressed and in what order. You will note springs are up near the top.

Ditch the idea of the Watts link. It is not going to do anything for you at this point. Throwing a Watts link at a car with soft springs and marginal dampers is like building a mansion on swampland. Yes, Watts links are good to have. But you NEED other things first.

If you are looking for the best return on your performance dollar (and you are at the track as much as you are) at this point you need to concentrate on the basics. And the basics are springs and dampers. You will think you have a completely different car with good springs/dampers.

If I were you and I had $3K to spend this is what I would get:

-Eibach R2 coilovers $2000
-Maximum Motorsports Caster Camber plates (they have some for those coilovers) $350
-Bump Steer kit $150
-Ball Joints with revised geometry (Steeda X5 for example) $160
-Rear lower control arms (J&M Extreme Joint) $190
-Adjustable Panhard Bar (J&M) $120

…..then get yourself a good alignment.

A car with the above setup will run CIRCLES around what you are planning on getting, CIRCLES!

Next round of mods:

-Adjustable rear swaybar
-Whiteline front lower control arm bushings
-Metco rear upper control arm
-Watts link (I like the Cortex unit)

For those of you that are about to jump in my shit for pushing expensive (there not expensive at all in the big scheme of things) coilovers keep in mind I suggested them in this particular case because of the OP’s circumstances.

-The OP is driving at a very fast and flowing track with lots of high speed sweepers with bumps in the middle of them. Good dampers are paramount at a venue like that.
-Secondly it sounds like the OP is getting a lot of track time. All the more reason to set the car up for the track.
-He can afford them.

If he was getting to the track twice a year and didn’t have a budget like he does I would have suggested something else.

And lastly, if you do not have experience driving a car with a good set of coilovers that have been set up correctly you really don’t have a qualified opinion about them do you? And how many people have actually driven a car hard with coilovers? I’m guessing not that many.

and I probably will try new pads and rotors before I do a complete over haul of the brake system. I'm still learning but still having an awful amount of fun and that's honestly the only part a care about.

Change that to cooling ducts and pads and you will be headed in the right direction.

I’m out, flame away.

 

[Sky Render]

I agree that if you can afford it, good coilovers are nice. That being said, coilovers are not magic; they are still simply matched dampers and springs.

To the OP: get good coilovers if you can afford them. I recommend KW's products, but that's a personal preference based on what some of my friends/coworkers run on their vehicles. Ground Control also makes decent coilovers that use custom-valved Koni yellows along with Eibach springs. Steeda coilovers use Tokico D-specs.

To anyone else reading this thread who may be on a budget (like I currently am): good dampers (Koni Yellows or Tokico D-specs) along with stiffer springs (Steeda Ultrilite/Sports or H&R) and caster/camber plates will do a LOT to make your car handle better without breaking the bank.

http://www.motoiq.com/magazine_articles/id/2578/improving-a-pony-cars-handling.aspx

 

[Department Of Boost]

I agree that if you can afford it, good coilovers are nice. That being said, coilovers are not magic;

I agree they are not magic, but there pretty F’ing good. These are what I see as a good coilovers advantages over a OEM style damper (springs are springs as long as the rate is correct):

-Ride height and corner weight adjustable

-Easy spring swaps with inexpensive “generic” 2.5” springs

-Separate compression and rebound damping adjustable (if you get nice enough ones). To me this is HUGE. I would loose my mind if I paid good money for dampers and they were single compression/rebound adjustable, just compression or rebound adjustable or not adjustable at all.

-The range of adjustment on a coilover is MUCH wider than a OEM style damper. This is because of the valving arrangement. For a daily driver/track day car this is huge.

-A coilover with a big piston/valve allows you to run much more aggressive springs and still have an acceptable ride on the street. A OEM style damper can’t do this, they don’t move enough fluid.

-A coilover, especially one with remote reservoirs (like the Eibach R2’s) is far more fade resistant than a OEM style damper. Fade is not a big deal in a AutoX situation, but it is if you are running road courses. Heat will ruin a dampers performance real fast. It’s not unreasonable for a OEM style damper (or even some coilovers) to loose half of their damping over a 15min session.

-Coilovers are easily rebuilt/re-valved.

I understand that coilovers are not going to be in everyone’s budget. But I would wager that if more people had a chance to compare a coilover to a OEM style damper they would try real hard to figure out how to afford them.

they are still simply matched dampers and springs.

It’s not quite that simple. If you had the valving from each in front of you it would make more sense. A good single tube coilover has completely different valving technology than a OEM style damper. I would say they are as different as a 2v iron block pushrod and 4v all aluminum overhead cam motor.

And a good OEM "semi-adjusbale" damper would be your "LS" pushrod 2v motor.

To the OP: get good coilovers if you can afford them. I recommend KW's products, but that's a personal preference based on what some of my friends/coworkers run on their vehicles. Ground Control also makes decent coilovers that use custom-valved Koni yellows along with Eibach springs. Steeda coilovers use Tokico D-specs.

Just adding a little here. There is more than one kind of coilover. Some have more adjustments, some have remote reservoirs, etc, etc, etc. All are not created equal even across one manufactures offerings. For the most part one thing holds steady and true when it comes to good dampers, you get what you pay for. A $2500 set of coilovers are a LOT better than these $800 sets you see out there. I went with the Eibach’s because I like the design, I love the adjustability, they have remote reservoirs and American Muscle is giving them away. They are a whole lot of coilover for $2000 (I think they retail for $2500). AST for example doesn’t offer a coilover with the same features for close to that money.

If I had to pay $2500 for the Eibach’s I would have entertained more options. Not saying I would have gone a different direction, but I would have looked into it harder.

To anyone else reading this thread who may be on a budget (like I currently am): good dampers (Koni Yellows or Tokico D-specs) along with stiffer springs (Steeda Ultrilite/Sports or H&R) and caster/camber plates will do a LOT to make your car handle better without breaking the bank.

I don’t want to come off like I am saying anything short of a coilover is garbage. Not is not the case at all. I’ve driven (and at one point was set up in a similar way) cars like you outlined above. They worked great and were MUCH, MUCH, MUCH better than stock. You can go pretty damn fast on a setup like that. Hell, 9 times out of 10 a setup like that is better than the driver.

In summery, coilovers rock! If you can afford them (or at least justify them) get some. If not, all is not lost, you can go very, very fast without them.

 

[jmauld]

gmitch, have you dyno'd your eibachs? If so, what percentage of crosstalk is there between the rebound and compression adjustments? How repeatable are the settings? Are they click adjustments or infinitely adjustable between lower and upper limits?

 

[Department Of Boost]

gmitch, have you dyno'd your eibachs? If so, what percentage of crosstalk is there between the rebound and compression adjustments? How repeatable are the settings? Are they click adjustments or infinitely adjustable between lower and upper limits?

Nope, I sold my dyno a few years ago. I wasn’t using it anymore.

I did play with the dampers on the bench before I put them on the car though. They don’t have Ohlins TTX like Pressure Balance (“crosstalk”) but nothing that isn’t a TTX does (a TTX doesn’t share compression/rebound fluid, they are completely separate).

The compression adjusters don’t seem to have any effect on rebound, but there is a little added compression when you get the rebound near closed off. That’s standard on single tube big piston dampers though. I got that from cycling them by hand though, not exactly scientific.

There isn’t much danger in getting the rebound slowed down to the point where it starts adding compression though. I have the car tied down pretty aggressively right now and I think I am at 8 out of 10 up front and 7 out of 10 out back (0 being full slow, 10 being full fast). Even with a full on “race” tune I would be amazed to see the clickers down in the 4-5 range. The rebound circuit could easily handle more spring rate.

The compression/rebound front/rear are all “clicker” adjustments. They seem pretty repeatable. If you back them all the way out and check the ranges they always click the same. No mystery clicks at either end.

I’m not going to claim that the Eibach’s are the greatest thing since sliced bread. They are not Ohlins TTX’s, but they don’t cost $8000+ either. They are pretty damn good for $2000 though, hell there pretty good for $3000+. After I got them in hand and spent some time playing with the adjustments I was pretty impressed. I’m not used to getting nearly that much damper for that kind of money. At the end of the day $500/corner is pretty damn cheap for a damper with all the goodies.

 

[claudermilk]

Exiting lurk mode here. No flaming, this is good information. I've been reading this thread with interest & have rearranged my eventual plans in part from information here. I've also realized there is a bit more to look at in lowering the Mustang than there was in my last car ('95 Probe GT--all struts & pretty simple to make piecemeal changes).

 

[jymontoya]

Nope, I sold my dyno a few years ago. I wasn’t using it anymore.

I did play with the dampers on the bench before I put them on the car though. They don’t have Ohlins TTX like Pressure Balance (“crosstalk”) but nothing that isn’t a TTX does (a TTX doesn’t share compression/rebound fluid, they are completely separate).

The compression adjusters don’t seem to have any effect on rebound, but there is a little added compression when you get the rebound near closed off. That’s standard on single tube big piston dampers though. I got that from cycling them by hand though, not exactly scientific.

There isn’t much danger in getting the rebound slowed down to the point where it starts adding compression though. I have the car tied down pretty aggressively right now and I think I am at 8 out of 10 up front and 7 out of 10 out back (0 being full slow, 10 being full fast). Even with a full on “race” tune I would be amazed to see the clickers down in the 4-5 range. The rebound circuit could easily handle more spring rate.

The compression/rebound front/rear are all “clicker” adjustments. They seem pretty repeatable. If you back them all the way out and check the ranges they always click the same. No mystery clicks at either end.

I’m not going to claim that the Eibach’s are the greatest thing since sliced bread. They are not Ohlins TTX’s, but they don’t cost $8000+ either. They are pretty damn good for $2000 though, hell there pretty good for $3000+. After I got them in hand and spent some time playing with the adjustments I was pretty impressed. I’m not used to getting nearly that much damper for that kind of money. At the end of the day $500/corner is pretty damn cheap for a damper with all the goodies.

gmitch- or should I say "RoadRacer78"

I remember when you were looking for coilovers, and you stated "the car will never see the track" POST 13:
http://mustangforums.com/forum/s197...k-and-w-clubsport-vs-eibach-multi-pro-r2.html


Have you since changed your mind, or are you speaking to all this based on experience with another car? Because without first hand track experience, and proof, it would be really terrible for you to be making such bold claims with a vehicle you have never actually tracked. No matter what your previous experience is with cars, which LOOKS extensive, It would be more helpful for you to share actual track driving experience in your Eibach R2 equipped S197.

Theoretical racing is an internet disease, and while I'm not discrediting your experience, you have not provided any actual help, or proof, beyond what a piece of marketing from Eibach would provide.

If you have in fact started tracking your Eibach R2 equipped S197, please share some sweet video, as I'd imagine the KB @17-19psi is a CRAZY handful on the track.

If not, I'll say it again... Eibach R2's are YOUR expensive street BLING. They might work great on the track, but how would we know? Where are all the people running them? I'm not saying they are bad, but there are other, PROVEN options out there.

Furthermore, the fact that you recommended a REAR sway bar upgrade with those heavily rear biased 350/250 springs setup, just shows me you have not actually tracked THIS car. Add a big rear sway on that setup without a DRAMATICALLY lowered rear roll center (probably Watts link), and you've got big time Oversteer issues. I know this first hand, even with my more heavily front biased 450/250 setup... http://s197forum.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1330915&postcount=52

Upgrading BOTH sway bars makes sense when you're only running on soft street 'sport' springs. Some race S197's run upgraded bars front and rear, but most S197 race cars I've seen are running WITHOUT any rear sway bar, and REALLY stiff springs.


Again guys, this is all from a 'track driven' perspective. Certainly compromises will be need to be made on a daily driven street car.

 

[Department Of Boost]

gmitch- or should I say "RoadRacer78"

I remember when you were looking for coilovers, and you stated "the car will never see the track" POST 13:
http://mustangforums.com/forum/s197...k-and-w-clubsport-vs-eibach-multi-pro-r2.html


Have you since changed your mind, or are you speaking to all this based on experience with another car? Because without first hand track experience, and proof, it would be really terrible for you to be making such bold claims with a vehicle you have never actually tracked. No matter what your previous experience is with cars, which LOOKS extensive, It would be more helpful for you to share actual track driving experience in your Eibach R2 equipped S197.

Theoretical racing is an internet disease, and while I'm not discrediting your experience, you have not provided any actual help, or proof, beyond what a piece of marketing from Eibach would provide.

If you have in fact started tracking your Eibach R2 equipped S197, please share some sweet video, as I'd imagine the KB @17-19psi is a CRAZY handful on the track.

If not, I'll say it again... Eibach R2's are YOUR expensive street BLING. They might work great on the track, but how would we know? Where are all the people running them? I'm not saying they are bad, but there are other, PROVEN options out there.

Furthermore, the fact that you recommended a REAR sway bar upgrade with those heavily rear biased 350/250 springs setup, just shows me you have not actually tracked THIS car. Add a big rear sway on that setup without a DRAMATICALLY lowered rear roll center (probably Watts link), and you've got big time Oversteer issues. I know this first hand, even with my more heavily front biased 450/250 setup... http://s197forum.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1330915&postcount=52

Upgrading BOTH sway bars makes sense when you're only running on soft street 'sport' springs. Some race S197's run upgraded bars front and rear, but most S197 race cars I've seen are running WITHOUT any rear sway bar, and REALLY stiff springs.


Again guys, this is all from a 'track driven' perspective. Certainly compromises will be need to be made on a daily driven street car.

Now I remember why I don’t post much on suspension topics. I’m not going to get in a pissing match with you, I’ve clearly already wasted a bunch of my time already. I’m not going to waste anymore.

Unsubscribed

 

[Mike K]

I liked your comments and response to how you like those. You kind of did sound like a salesman for eibach but I thought it was informative.

 

[Sky Render]

Wow, this thread just got "real." Whatever that means.

gmitch, I am curious if you've actually tracked your car with those Eibachs.

 

[Mike K]

They look like a great coilover so I would like to know as well. Winter months are my mod months. Lmao

 

[Nicu7]

Well I think a lot of these posts are helpful to me. I had no idea it would span 3 pages and over 50 posts. Sounds like a lot of you really know what your talking about. FYI I had eibach coils on my svt and loved them. Only had adj damping though. I had h&r's but had multiple problems with them and they charged me for a replacement strut that started leaking after 3k miles. I hit a pot hole with my eibachs and messed one up. I called the vendor I bought them from and they sent me a new one. Only paid shipping. A little off topic, but I really like eibach products and their customer service. Thanks again for the advice and other information.

 

[908ssp]

Here is the Watts link on gmitch's car. Makes the Cortex look kinda cheap and I really like the Cortex compared to those steel bridge and girder jobbies. But having or not makes no difference on the advice he was giving.

 

[Mach2burnout]

Why can't two experienced, knowledgeable racers (who dont know each other and probably will never compete against one another) discuss suspension setups and help a third guy out with some advice without having to get into a dick measuring contest? Never have understood this.

Sorry hope I don't offend any one but if I do so be it!


Sent from iPhone

 

[Red_Devil]

Because suspension is sort of a black art, and there are many schools of thought and different theories on the correct way to go about chassis tuning... I could be the 4th guy in and have my own opinion, but this thread looks busy enough!

 

[Mike K]

Because suspension is sort of a black art, and there are many schools of thought and different theories on the correct way to go about chassis tuning... I could be the 4th guy in and have my own opinion, but this thread looks busy enough!

Please give your opinions

 

[Mach2burnout]

Because suspension is sort of a black art, and there are many schools of thought and different theories on the correct way to go about chassis tuning... I could be the 4th guy in and have my own opinion, but this thread looks busy enough!

Yes we all have our opinions but I've said it many times, there are too many variables in racing! Your way is not the only way. So before you give your opinion on the best set up you should be willing to accept or at least listen to, the other guys opinion.
You may pick up something that will work for you!


Sent from iPhone

 

[Philostang]

Yes we all have our opinions but I've said it many times, there are too many variables in racing! Your way is not the only way. So before you give your opinion on the best set up you should be willing to accept or at least listen to, the other guys opinion.
You may pick up something that will work for you!


Sent from iPhone

There's something of a "black art" to suspension, but mostly I think there are (a) seriously important variables each tuner has to address which makes across-the-board recommendations difficult, and (b) a lack of listening skills when it comes to advice that is given in the first place.

I teach for a living, and from my experience the true "black art" is a listening. So I'm heartily seconding Mach's suggestion. I think most of what amounts to a pissing match stems from folks not listening or only listening piecemeal.

I don't really care if gmitch has tracked his S197 or not. Listen (look/read/whatever) at what he's saying and you'll note two subtle things: first a lot of qualifiers and second transitions between experience-based statements and evaluation statements. Identifying the former and picking apart the later takes some listening skill.

I'm not a suspension expert, but little of what he said looks seriously awry or misleading to me when you see how he's qualified it and can distinguish his evaluations from his understanding of the basics. Will one set up "run circles around" another? That's an evaluation, and these are the ones that get folks all heated up. Of course, read on and you'll see important qualifiers to that (admittedly extreme) evaluation that suggest "running circles" isn't what we might take it to mean. Which evaluations will apply to the OP or others reading this thread? That returns us to (a) above; all those pesky variables need to be carefully considered.

Now, I've got to go teach the youth of this nation...

Best,
-j