The age old question...turbo vs sc.

MilSpec197

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Coming from the world of turbo-fords (im one of the 2.3 guys) my first love is any and everything turbo. I find them much less complicated and soo much easier to work with. The drawback is cost though. Everyone says that when big power comes into play, lag is a huge issue. Lag goes away if you invest in a NICE turbo, and not just your standard 66 or 72mm unit. Ball bearing turbos have basically zero lag, and because of their effiency, the limits are endless. If a ball bearing still has "too much" lag for you, VGT(variable geometry) or VNT(variable nozzle/vane) may be what you want to look at. These turbos constantly adjust their compressior size/ratio to give you both maximum efficency and maximum boost at any RPM range. I had a VGT on my Turbo Coupe before switching to a ball bearing t04s. Its like having a GT-28 when you are down low in the rpms and then when you get it up top, its like having a 72 or 76mm hair drier up under there. Look at Porche/Mercadees tuners, these are the turbos they use to take a sub 3 liter car to in excess of 500hp and 200+mph and still be daily driven with no reliability issues...

just my .02
 

MrClean

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Thanks, that's great info. I had read about VGT's in the Porsche Turbo (I guess in the GT2 as well), but aren't ridiculously expensive? The Fastlane TT kit, installed and tuned, is $7k. Obvioulsy there has to be a decent margin in that price, otherwise what is Nick in business for? He uses Borg Warner (he's an authorized repair facility for Borg Warner), and I bet each of his 54's are $800 to $1k by themselves. I wonder if they're ballbearing turbos or not.....

EDIT: I just checked their website, which has an axploded view of one of the "S" seried Borg Warner turbos, and it shows them as having journal bearings. In a conversation over tubo alternatives, Nick said he could chamge the nozzle or something such that the turbos would spool up quicker (I wanted spool-up by 1800-2000 rpm), but he said it would limit the turbo's potential to 500 rwhp on the 3V4.6.
 
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MilSpec197

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VGT/VNT turbos arent cheap, but like any other form of tuning, you can always find ways around that. The best source for mechenical VGT's are dodge turbo diesels. Unlike the units on ford's and chevy's, they are vaccume controled. All you would need is a manifold with the same exhaust inlet pattern and get a steel exhaust wheel made for it and you are off to the races. there are some cases where people have gotten away with(like me) using the stock ceremic impeller, but it is risky if you are running high EGT's. My TurboCoupe was only seeing about 18psi, so EGT's were not so much of an issue because i had a rich tune (these cars love to pop head gaskets and detonate if you are the slightst bit lean as i found out one spirited night). But like i said, if you would like to go turbo, but arent ready for everything that comes with the trial and error part of customization, then i would say stick with an established companies set up. My advice for you since you are looking for quick spool time on a 4.6 is look as a single turbo kit, and use a ball bearing turbo. The cost of the turbo is a little high, but the benefits are well worth it. Plus, it leaves the door open for major power gains if you decide that 400-500 WHP is not enough. Lets say you hook it up with the hellion single kit and a 72mm ball bearing garret. You can have the low end kick you want all day long, and then should you decide you want to do some internal mods, you have the flexibility to run in the mid 20's psi range and not be at the limits of efficency. Slide all that air through a 3row bar and plate intercooler with say a hint of water/meth injection and chick-a-chick-a-pow...you got a screamer that retains streetability and can still monster down a track.
 

slicksilver

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SC are good for consistant power thourghout. They do not make as good of a daily drive due to the excessive engine stress, gas mileage, and extream power when you don't want it. SC also generaly have less torque. Turbos are much better daily drivers. They feel just like a stock car when you are not into the throttle. When you want the power, it comes on strong! You do have the turbo lag to worry about, but once you get into the boost, say bye. Turbos also have high torque #s as well. If you stay out of the boost, your engine is under far less stress than if it was supercharged. Turbos can be more difficult to install due to the "y" pipe and exhaust routing, but no worse than if you have to tap a oil line in your pan for a vortec, paxton, or pro charger SC. For me, I'm a NA kind of guy. I want to set my ride up with a cobra crank, forged connecting rods, pistons, port/polished heads, 10:1 compression, full bolt ons, high rise intake, full suspension front and rear, stall convirter, and gears. I'm hopeing for a 9,000+ RPM 3-V w/ 450+ rwhp. Yes, this would be a worse daily driver than a SC or turboed car, but what a car it would be!
 

US-1

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The turbos in my twin setup are Garrett GT2871-R dual ball bearing units. They are NOT cheap by any means and they are what drives the cost of the kit up to around $9K. Personally.....I feel they're worth it. Right now they spool at 2500 rpm but when they come on they're bad news. I can't bitch.....a stock GT with twins that runs 123 mph in the quarter ain't bad!
 

Dex

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One thing i've seen on here that is very off is the, bigger turbo = more heat. That is completely opposite actually. In order to bust out 550rwhp on a T60 i would need race gas at 18lbs of boost. Now I would be working the shit out of that little turbo and it can potentialy melt my pistons along with everything in my front end. With a bigger turbo, say a T76, I can run 16lbs of boost and hit 750rwhp. Its having to work alot less than the T60.

If you know how to properly size your turbo to your engine there most be much lag and it will be a monster.

I like both FI but personally a turbo is what I like. My dad has a GT500 and I love the s/c but turbo is where its at! :D
 

Androdz

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First a picture says better than words can

4t2b86.jpg


Top left is the new HTA35 blade. Top right is the common 35R blade. The HTA has the same size exducer(82mm). The inducer is around 3mm smaller. The hub of the blade of the HTA is much smaller than that of the common 35R (almost half as small). What does this do? It makes the blades much bigger. The blade is also a lot lighter because a lot of the mass has been removed from the hub and the inducer is much smaller. Adding to this is that the HTA has 14 blades vs 12 blades of a common GT35R. This way the turbo spools up a lot faster, moves more air faster and doesn't have to spin as much to move the same ammount of air and it also reduces significantly the backpressure on the blade of the compressor.

That is how the blade helps reduce lag and helps to move more air at the same time. Adding to this is a better compressor cover with better anti-surge ports and the end result is that you get a much better turbo.

The blades below are that of a Mitsubishi 24v and a 25G. The 25g uses the same style as the 35R and the 24v uses the same style of the HTA35. Obviously most of the HTA's turbos are made by a 5 axis CNC.

There are companies that will do this upgrade to any turbo for around $450 and they put new blades and new compressor cover on the turbo. Forced Performance is a perfect example. Now doing this does take some time

Well now the dynos

AMS Kit normal
35R_vs_HTA35R.JPG



This is Bushur's car "bad bish" on a Mustang Dyno that tends to read lower...

35Rcomp-screenshot-logo.jpg


Now the 35r is no the only turbo that offers the new blade design and the HTA Compressor. They are many options right now on the market but a very small # of people are aware of this type of turbine design. Mainly speaking for us but they are becoming a real hit on the import crowd.

There are also VGT turbos

Variable Turbine Geometry technology is the next generation in turbocharger technology where the turbo uses variable vanes to control exhaust flow against the turbine blades. See, the problem with the turbocharger that we’ve all come to know and love is that big turbos do not work well at slow engine speeds, while small turbos are fast to spool but run out of steam pretty quick. So how do VTG turbos solve this problem?

A Variable Turbine Geometry turbocharger is also known as a variable geometry turbocharger (VGT), or a Variable Nozzle Turbine (VNT). A turbocharger equipped with Variable Turbine Geometry has little movable vanes which can direct exhaust flow onto the turbine blades. The vane angles are adjusted via an actuator. The angle of the vanes vary throughout the engine RPM range to optimize turbine behaviour.
vtg_3d_closed.jpg


[FONT=&quot]In the 3D illustration above, you can see the vanes in a angle which is almost closed. I have highlighted the variable vanes so you know which is which. This position is optimized for low engine RPM speeds, pre-boost
vtg_diagram_closed.jpg

[/FONT] In this cut-through diagram, you can see the direction of exhaust flow when the variable vanes are in an almost closed angle. The narrow passage of which the exhaust gas has to flow through accelerates the exhaust gas towards the turbine blades, making them spin faster. The angle of the vanes also directs the gas to hit the blades at the proper angle.
vtg_3d_open.jpg

[FONT=&quot]Above are how the VGT vanes look like when they are open. I’ve not highlighted where the vanes are in this image since you already know where they are, as to not spoil the mechanical beauty that it is
vtg_diagram_open.jpg

[/FONT] This cut-through diagram shows the exhaust gas flow when the variable turbine vanes are fully open. The high exhaust flow at high engine speeds are fully directed onto the turbine blades by the variable vanes.
Variable Turbine Geometry has been used extensively in turbodiesel engines since the 1990s, but it has never been on a production petrol turbocharged car before until the new Type 997 Porsche 911 Turbo. This is because petrol engine exhaust gases are alot hotter than diesel engine exhaust gas, so generally the material used to make VTG turbos could not stand this heat. The 997 911 Turbo uses a BorgWarner VTG turbocharger which uses special materials derived from aerospace technology, hence solving the temperature problem.


VGT article from http://paultan.org/archives/2006/08/...geometry-work/
HTA thanks to JG from carrito.net

Andrew
 

Al Guapo

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Harmonics that travel down the the belt can become a longevity issue with the crank. TS will also shock your rods more when WOT at low RPM.
 

gijosh28

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I couldnt find performance hertiage's website, and I dont know if I am on the right site for fastlane motorsports. The one I am on I cant find a turbo kit for the s197. It is www.fastlanemotorsports.us. There is also this kit here that was at mustang week.
 

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gijosh28

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Well, their website looks very nice, their product looks very nice, but I have no idea where they are, or how much their stuff is. There arent any pictures of the kit installed either. Anyone have any experience with them (parts and labor)?
 

mwilkes

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gijosh28

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no prices on their website. their kit looks just like this canadian kit that never made it to production.
 

mwilkes

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yeah, you would have to call them for the current price. When I got mine done it was 7999, but that's for everything plus install and dyno tuning.
 

95fobra

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I didn't read all the posts but turbo all the way free hp, a supercharger takes hp to make hp.
 

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