tuners change throttle response?

[CCS86]

Edit: Here's a screen shot of my drive by wire table. You can see that I'm commanding a certain torque in newton meters at corresponding pp and rpm. I realize that a lot of this stuff is hard to visualize. Keep in mind that at wot the torque table is ignored. There are a lot more tables that the ecu uses to determine the torque used in this table.

Hopefully this helps.

Hey Bruce,

What are you tuning with? I used to have a TwEECer on my '95, and really want that level of control on my '12.

The consumer level tuners I've seen don't offer that, and the systems that do seem to be priced for purchase by a tuning shop.


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[BruceH]

Hey Bruce,

What are you tuning with? I used to have a TwEECer on my '95, and really want that level of control on my '12.

The consumer level tuners I've seen don't offer that, and the systems that do seem to be priced for purchase by a tuning shop.


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PM sent. Pro Racer will let you tune to the same level as a multi license version if you obtain calibrator status. SCT offers courses both online and at their facility to gain it. I think they also accept a Greg Banish course as proof that you aren't going to do something stupid. It's best to contact them and ask what they will accept to allow you full access. Several members on this site have taken the courses.

 

[lee12609]

Bruce would maxing every cell in that table disable most of the TM except on shifts.

I use hptuers on GM vehicles but I'm worried about using it on my mustang since there is very little support but amvery tempted.

 

[BruceH]

Bruce would maxing every cell in that table disable most of the TM except on shifts.

I use hptuers on GM vehicles but I'm worried about using it on my mustang since there is very little support but amvery tempted.

No. Maxing every cell would command max torque at all pedal positions. It would be beyond dangerous.

Edit: The rest of this response is directed to nobody in particular:

There are several tables related to torque. If you are wondering what torque control is doing when you drive datalog "tq source". It will give you a number that corresponds with what is controlling the torque. The numbers are explained in live link under help-source values. I have a feeling you will be surprised that it's mostly used for tip in and tip out to keep things smooth. Driveability is the main function of torque control imo. There is no need to feather the throttle like in the old days of carburators and distributors.

There is one switch that will turn off all calculated torque reduction. I don't think turning it off would be a good idea at all. One of the reasons we have high horsepower cars that behave in traffic is because of torque control.

A lot of misinformation is out there on the forums. I strongly suggest reading "Advanced Engine Management" by Greg Banish. It's under $20 from amazon and covers a lot of the theory and practical application of engine management. Buy it, read it, and be an informed participant in discussions.

 

[lee12609]

so Ford calls it torque reduction. basically the PCM controlling the throttle angle to determine the power output, or does it do use spark timing and throttle angle?

i've showed up late to the Ford show, sorry if i sound like a noob but i have been tuning hondas for the past 10 years, and GMs for about 4years. my only experience with fords is handheld flash devices and way back when everyone used FMU+fuel pressure change and a boost timing retard box.

we REALLY need an engine management section here.

 

[lee12609]

i am still really confused on how commanding max torque at every throttle position would be dangerous.

to me, i would think that would just disable all torque reduction from the PCM, which would change the feel of the car but not make it dangerous. just because you are commanding MAX at 10% TP doesnt mean the engine is capable of making it, its just allowing it (hence no torque reduction). this is EXACTLY how you remove torque management in a GM electronic throttle vehicles, along with a couple other tables.

not trying to argue, just trying to learn.

 

[BruceH]

so Ford calls it torque reduction. basically the PCM controlling the throttle angle to determine the power output, or does it do use spark timing and throttle angle?

i've showed up late to the Ford show, sorry if i sound like a noob but i have been tuning hondas for the past 10 years, and GMs for about 4years. my only experience with fords is handheld flash devices and way back when everyone used FMU+fuel pressure change and a boost timing retard box.

we REALLY need an engine management section here.

i am still really confused on how commanding max torque at every throttle position would be dangerous.

to me, i would think that would just disable all torque reduction from the PCM, which would change the feel of the car but not make it dangerous. just because you are commanding MAX at 10% TP doesnt mean the engine is capable of making it, its just allowing it (hence no torque reduction). this is EXACTLY how you remove torque management in a GM electronic throttle vehicles, along with a couple other tables.

not trying to argue, just trying to learn.

It's not a direct link to throttle blade angle. All that pedal position does is command torque. How the motor achieves that torque is through many tables in the tune that calculate torque output and what combination of parameters will get you there.

If you commanded full torque in all the tables the motor would always be in wot no matter what the pedal position. The pedal position is not a direct link to the throttle blade. It is a link to the ecu and torque tables. Pedal position is only used to command torque.

 

[Sky Render]

Commanded torque can be achieved through throttle plate position, ignition timing, air/fuel ratios, intake/exhaust camshaft timing,...

 

[lee12609]

It's not a direct link to throttle blade angle. All that pedal position does is command torque. How the motor achieves that torque is through many tables in the tune that calculate torque output and what combination of parameters will get you there.

If you commanded full torque in all the tables the motor would always be in wot no matter what the pedal position. The pedal position is not a direct link to the throttle blade. It is a link to the ecu and torque tables. Pedal position is only used to command torque.

so the PCM is using PP and that table (along with others) to determine throttle angle basically? higher numbers in the lower rpm rows would make the car feel more responsive because you are commanding more torque.

Commanded torque can be achieved through throttle plate position, ignition timing, air/fuel ratios, intake/exhaust camshaft timing,...

exactly what i was wondering.





PS, thanks for the time spent on this, i know you probably feel like you're talking over my head and wasting your breath but i assure you i do not take any info for granted. i'm a sponge!

 

[Justinjor]

^ that's some really great information to share. Thanks Bruce!

+1 for Advanced Engine Management book by Greg--it's a great read and he does an excellent job at explaining all different aspects of tuning that a laymen can understand.

 

[JAJ]

BruceH, are you talking about the 2011+ Coyote ECU or the previous one? Also, have you found a good tuning guide for the Copperhead? Everything I've seen so far by Banish and others assumes there's an LWFM table and the Copperhead doesn't have one.

 

[BruceH]

BruceH, are you talking about the 2011+ Coyote ECU or the previous one? Also, have you found a good tuning guide for the Copperhead? Everything I've seen so far by Banish and others assumes there's an LWFM table and the Copperhead doesn't have one.

I only have software for my car which is a 4.6 3v and uses a Spanish Oak processor. I've heard that sct is going to release some coyote specific stuff sometime soon.

Originally I came into this thread to show what dbw is and give people an idea of what it does. There is always a misconception that it is a direct link to the throttle blade and it isn't. That's all I was trying to convey.

Interesting info about the lwfm table. An ecu should be able to build it's own through sampling (just a random thought) but as we know that doesn't happen with Spanish Oak. I'm wondering when and if that will happen.

 

[JAJ]

The Copperhead has what looks like a "all closed loop all speed density all the time" approach to operation. Not only does it not have an LWFM table, it doesn't have an ISC either. It's quite amazing really. The only thing it doesn't forecast a couple of cycles ahead is what the driver's going to do - for everything else, there's algebra.

 

[Sky Render]

The Copperhead ECU also has two wideband O2 sensors, one for each bank, and can control air/fuel and spark trims on an individual cylinder basis. This is why the "Number 8 Issue" was confusing to me--tuners should have been able to slightly richen the mixture for cylinder 8 to keep it running cooler. Whether this was a result of ignorance, laziness, or incompetence is still unknown.

 

[Justinjor]

The factory tune already commands more fuel for #8 and they still break when unmodified. I don't believe the issue is as simple as adding more fuel to keep the piston cool.

 

[Sky Render]

The factory tune already commands more fuel for #8 and they still break when unmodified.

This has not been verified.

 

[Justinjor]

This has not been verified.

Which part has not been verified?

 

[Sky Render]

Which part has not been verified?

Stock motors popping the number 8 cylinder has not been conclusively verified.

 

[Justinjor]

Stock motors popping the number 8 cylinder has not been conclusively verified.

What would you consider conclusive evidence? I've read of stock motors popping #8 on here and other forums, and have personally seen a local friend have his motor replaced at the dealer after #8 let go with signs of "heavy scoring of the #8 cylinder."

 

[ochoblanco]

Is the #8 cylinder issue a problem with the roadrunner motor or just the coyote?