What seats are you running?

[Mach2burnout]

I must have misunderstood. The Sparco website said it supports a 4 point harness and that it doesn't have a slot for submarine belt. I was thinking I didn't have the option for a 5 point or more.

Contact Sparco and see if the seat you are buying can be retrofitted at the factory with a fifth slot or if they will sell the pieces to install them yourself. They're very easy to install.


Sent from iPhone

 

[sheizasosay]

Contact Sparco and see if the seat you are buying can be retrofitted at the factory with a fifth slot or if they will sell the pieces to install them yourself. They're very easy to install.


Sent from iPhone

I already have the seats. Getting Sparco to add as sub slot is out.

I would first talk to Sparco and see what their position is on adding a slot for the belt, and then talk to your harness manufacturer (if not using Sparco), and determine what angle they need to see for the anti-sub, then grab some beer and a power tool or two...

Seriously, I have yet to see ONE 4-point belt that isn't a death trap. When I instruct and students show up with them, I invariably grab the OE belt... It seems like there is just no way to get enough tension on the lap belts to prevent the buckle riding up when you snug the shoulder harnesses. This includes the vehicle-specific DOT certified setups as well (BMW fitment).

I want to track test the Fighter seats with OE seatbelts first and see how it works out for me. I will be on track soon enough. Good to know about 4 points though.

Cutting into that seat probably won't happen....I don't think. The OE seatbelt would have to do terrible. As long as I don't have to use my elbows on the door or center console to brace for a turn and don't have to use my left foot to plant myself into the seat to stop from sliding my butt around, I probably will keep OE belts. Time will tell.

4 point harness suck. When you tighten up your shoulder straps it pulls the lap belt up high. I had 4 point when I had my stock Recaros seats. I switched the seats out and went with 6 point harness for both sides. Best move ever.

Got it. 4 point suck. Seems to be prevailing.

 

[SoundGuyDave]

If you're going to use the stock belts with a high-bolster seat, do yourself a favor and thread the belt through the side harness slots. If you pull the belt over the top of the side bolsters, you won't have proper engagement between the webbing and your pelvic crest if you should ever happen to "run out of talent."

I'm honestly not trying to bust your balls, but I would hate to see somebody get hurt from an improper setup. IIRC, all it would take would be one electrical connector and a T50 or T55 screw to get the belt loose at the bottom. Drop that through the slot, then re-attach. Done. You may have to play some games with the mounting of the buckle-end to be able to use the stock belt through the harness guides, but it's well worth doing.

Whatever you do, DON'T confuse the "planted" sensation you'll get in high lat-G conditions with being properly secured in the seat in the event of a wreck. At most, you'll be pulling a G or so in a corner, but in a solid impact, you could be looking at 30+ G forces. That really isn't the time to discover that you're not properly latched into the seat...

My prediction is that you're absolutely going to love how "connected" you are to the car when you're not fighting to stay in place on the seat. Next step for you would be to finish off the safety package the right way. Rollbar (MM's is VERY nice), and proper harnesses at a minimum. No, they won't make you go faster, but they will keep you safe when you start exploring the edge of the envelope a little more...

 

[sheizasosay]

If you're going to use the stock belts with a high-bolster seat, do yourself a favor and thread the belt through the side harness slots. If you pull the belt over the top of the side bolsters, you won't have proper engagement between the webbing and your pelvic crest if you should ever happen to "run out of talent."

I'm honestly not trying to bust your balls, but I would hate to see somebody get hurt from an improper setup. IIRC, all it would take would be one electrical connector and a T50 or T55 screw to get the belt loose at the bottom. Drop that through the slot, then re-attach. Done. You may have to play some games with the mounting of the buckle-end to be able to use the stock belt through the harness guides, but it's well worth doing.

Whatever you do, DON'T confuse the "planted" sensation you'll get in high lat-G conditions with being properly secured in the seat in the event of a wreck. At most, you'll be pulling a G or so in a corner, but in a solid impact, you could be looking at 30+ G forces. That really isn't the time to discover that you're not properly latched into the seat...

My prediction is that you're absolutely going to love how "connected" you are to the car when you're not fighting to stay in place on the seat. Next step for you would be to finish off the safety package the right way. Rollbar (MM's is VERY nice), and proper harnesses at a minimum. No, they won't make you go faster, but they will keep you safe when you start exploring the edge of the envelope a little more...

You don't need to worry about my balls Dave. My wife holds onto those for me. J/k. I appreciate your input.

Take a look at the pic and notice the relationship of where the belt goes through the buckle in relation to the height of the seat bolster. That "white" washed out part of the pic is where my upper thigh meets my pelvis. So the belt is easily engaging me. I think I know what you're concern was: that the bolster is so high that it is keeping the belt off of me. Not an issue here that I see. Am I reading you right on this or do you think that is unsafe?

 

[Mach2burnout]

I already have the seats. Getting Sparco to add as sub slot is out.

I gotcha but you may be able to purchase the parts from Sparco like I did from Corbeau and install them yourself.

As for them not making you faster I have to disagree. When you no longer are using energy, concentration, focus, etc. on keeping your butt in the seat and your using the steering wheel to steer the car instead of to hang on you'll go faster. Won't make your car faster but lap times will be improved if your more comfortable in the car.

Oh as others have said the added bonus of saving your life in a crash is always a plus.
JMO


Sent from iPhone

 

[SoundGuyDave]

You don't need to worry about my balls Dave. My wife holds onto those for me. J/k. I appreciate your input.

Take a look at the pic and notice the relationship of where the belt goes through the buckle in relation to the height of the seat bolster. That "white" washed out part of the pic is where my upper thigh meets my pelvis. So the belt is easily engaging me. I think I know what you're concern was: that the bolster is so high that it is keeping the belt off of me. Not an issue here that I see. Am I reading you right on this or do you think that is unsafe?

I really can't tell from the pic, but yeah, that was what my concern was, that the belt would ride across the top of the bolster and not positively engage you right at the illiac crest. If you're feeling confident that there is significant engagement across the pelvis, then I wouldn't worry too much. If you think that the amount of engagement as compared to stock has been reduced, then yes, I would take measures to adjust the belt routing. If you pull up on the shoulder section (to add tension to the lap portion), you should feel a roughly linear increase in pressure across your lap. If you're not getting that, then it could be an issue.

 

[Apex50]

I gotcha but you may be able to purchase the parts from Sparco like I did from Corbeau and install them yourself.

As for them not making you faster I have to disagree. When you no longer are using energy, concentration, focus, etc. on keeping your butt in the seat and your using the steering wheel to steer the car instead of to hang on you'll go faster. Won't make your car faster but lap times will be improved if your more comfortable in the car.

Oh as others have said the added bonus of saving your life in a crash is always a plus.
JMO


Sent from iPhone

Very true! My VIR full course lap times dropped 2 secs after installing the watson racing roll bar and racequip 6pts. I felt way more in tune with what the car was doing, could feel it rotate etc... The added safety is icing on the cake

 

[sheizasosay]

Well I just got off the phone with Sparco. They said not a good idea to add the sub slot. They also said it was designed to be used with OE belts too.

 

[Mach2burnout]

Well I just got off the phone with Sparco. They said not a good idea to add the sub slot. They also said it was designed to be used with OE belts too.

Do you have a locking device for your factory belt, CG lock or something similar?


Sent from iPhone

 

[sheizasosay]

Do you have a locking device for your factory belt, CG lock or something similar?


Sent from iPhone

No. Stock.

 

[neema]

Well I just got off the phone with Sparco. They said not a good idea to add the sub slot. They also said it was designed to be used with OE belts too.

So what are going to do? Swap the seat for another?

 

[sheizasosay]

So what are going to do? Swap the seat for another?

I'm gonna take my happy ass to the track and drive! I will know after that if there is a problem with my setup. I'm not sweating it at all. In fact, I'm kinda amped to get out there and drive with the new seats.

I do track days, not American Iron. I got these seats for my intended purpose, which is nothing more than track days. In a couple weeks I will post how those seats with OE belts faired.

I would like to get a cage. I have eyeballed the MM one several times. It's just a money thing. If it comes down that I need to get a seat that has a submarine belt, I will probably by a Sparco EVO since all I would have to do is get side mounts for the swap. I'm holding the verdict of this setup until I run it though.

The car is a daily driver. It's inching it's way towards track car. I don't usually drop large coin on my car unless I deploy and grab extra bucks. That's probably not gonna happen for a hot minute considering I just got back.

 

[SoundGuyDave]

Well I just got off the phone with Sparco. They said not a good idea to add the sub slot. They also said it was designed to be used with OE belts too.

If Sparco said they were designed to be used with the stock belts, then I wouldn't worry over-much at all. Maybe I was looking a the wrong seat, but when I googled "Sparco Fighter," I got pix of a typical high-bolster race-type shell with belt guides fairly low in the bolsters. Maybe I got bad info. If so, my apologies for kinda pushing the panic button... Is this the seat? Also, note the belt routing...

I'm gonna take my happy ass to the track and drive! I will know after that if there is a problem with my setup. I'm not sweating it at all. In fact, I'm kinda amped to get out there and drive with the new seats.

You are going to LOVE how well connected you are to the car. You'll start feeling the car doing stuff you didn't even know was going on before...

I do track days, not American Iron. I got these seats for my intended purpose, which is nothing more than track days. In a couple weeks I will post how those seats with OE belts faired.

Okay, let's clean up a few misconceptions here... When you put a car on a race track, ANY race track, in ANY run group, you are assuming a risk, both of material damage to the car, as well as possible bodily injury. Those are just the simple facts, i.e. "That's just the way it is." Yes, in the "lower" run groups (HPDE) you can mitigate risk to a much higher degree than in the full-on competition groups (TT and W2W), however that risk is still there. In 2011, I was in three on-track wrecks (a singularly BAD year for me in that respect!). One in HPDE-1 (instructing), and two in HPDE-3/4 (instructing one, driving the other). Last year, I was in two near-miss incidents (two students, same car, no high-HP experience, but lots of LeMons time in a 110HP FWD shitbox) both in HPDE-1.

Since I got my Comp license in 2011, I've been in body-contact impound precicely ZERO times, running in CMC, 944SPEC, PTB, ST-3, and Enduros. And yes, during that time, I've taken home hardware and set track records on more than one occasion, so I'm not exactly "taking it easy" out there...

Bottom line is that "track days" are not automatically safe, and racing wheel-to-wheel does not automatically equate to crashing. W2W adds the extra risk factor of close-proximity driving for extended periods of time, but ALL are subject to the vagaries of mechanical issues. Tire failure, brake line rupture, cracked brake rotor, failed balljoint or tie rod, debris on the track (including rain and/or antifreeze and/or oil); all can conspire to put your car into jeopardy with you in it... To say nothing of the OTHER GUY that screwed up and collects you.

Safety is, at least for me, a MAJOR priority for any on-track car. I would personally like to see a rollbar/seat/harness/HANS requirement for ANY open-passing group, but from a marketing standpoint, that would be a hard sell...

I would like to get a cage. I have eyeballed the MM one several times. It's just a money thing. If it comes down that I need to get a seat that has a submarine belt, I will probably by a Sparco EVO since all I would have to do is get side mounts for the swap. I'm holding the verdict of this setup until I run it though.

The MM rollbar is a work of art. Philostang has one in his TT car, and it's solid, well-built, and cake to install. I'll let him comment further if he feels the need. A rollcage is a different animal, and NOT in ANY way recommended for a daily-driver or dual purpose car. Something about having your head a few inches away from steel tubing when you're not wearing a helmet is not exactly smart on the street. As I mentioned, for me safety is a key item. I had a bar, seats, harnesses and a HANS in mine the day I figured out that I was going FASTER in TT than the eqivalent race classes... And yes, I completely understand the budget thing! I'm currently running around 35HP under my class bogey, but here is my prioritized mod list:

1. Onboard fire system to supplement the hand-held in the car.
2. FIA right and left side containment nets (and I already have a Halo seat!)
3. FIA FT3 fuel cell
4. Cams and a re-tune.

Maybe I'm over the top on the safety thing, but I think you can see where I'm coming from.

The car is a daily driver. It's inching it's way towards track car. I don't usually drop large coin on my car unless I deploy and grab extra bucks. That's probably not gonna happen for a hot minute considering I just got back.

Well, thank you for your service!! I didn't know you were in... what branch, if I may ask?

 

[jayh007]

I agree with safety being a top priority issue. I considered myself a conservative driver but shit happens. "Race on Sunday work on Monday". I never saw it coming as you can see from the video below

http://youtu.be/FTXMpQzTHRw

 

[sheizasosay]

If Sparco said they were designed to be used with the stock belts, then I wouldn't worry over-much at all. Maybe I was looking a the wrong seat, but when I googled "Sparco Fighter," I got pix of a typical high-bolster race-type shell with belt guides fairly low in the bolsters. Maybe I got bad info. If so, my apologies for kinda pushing the panic button... Is this the seat? Also, note the belt routing...

You are going to LOVE how well connected you are to the car. You'll start feeling the car doing stuff you didn't even know was going on before...

Okay, let's clean up a few misconceptions here... When you put a car on a race track, ANY race track, in ANY run group, you are assuming a risk, both of material damage to the car, as well as possible bodily injury. Those are just the simple facts, i.e. "That's just the way it is." Yes, in the "lower" run groups (HPDE) you can mitigate risk to a much higher degree than in the full-on competition groups (TT and W2W), however that risk is still there. In 2011, I was in three on-track wrecks (a singularly BAD year for me in that respect!). One in HPDE-1 (instructing), and two in HPDE-3/4 (instructing one, driving the other). Last year, I was in two near-miss incidents (two students, same car, no high-HP experience, but lots of LeMons time in a 110HP FWD shitbox) both in HPDE-1.

Since I got my Comp license in 2011, I've been in body-contact impound precicely ZERO times, running in CMC, 944SPEC, PTB, ST-3, and Enduros. And yes, during that time, I've taken home hardware and set track records on more than one occasion, so I'm not exactly "taking it easy" out there...

Bottom line is that "track days" are not automatically safe, and racing wheel-to-wheel does not automatically equate to crashing. W2W adds the extra risk factor of close-proximity driving for extended periods of time, but ALL are subject to the vagaries of mechanical issues. Tire failure, brake line rupture, cracked brake rotor, failed balljoint or tie rod, debris on the track (including rain and/or antifreeze and/or oil); all can conspire to put your car into jeopardy with you in it... To say nothing of the OTHER GUY that screwed up and collects you.

Safety is, at least for me, a MAJOR priority for any on-track car. I would personally like to see a rollbar/seat/harness/HANS requirement for ANY open-passing group, but from a marketing standpoint, that would be a hard sell...


The MM rollbar is a work of art. Philostang has one in his TT car, and it's solid, well-built, and cake to install. I'll let him comment further if he feels the need. A rollcage is a different animal, and NOT in ANY way recommended for a daily-driver or dual purpose car. Something about having your head a few inches away from steel tubing when you're not wearing a helmet is not exactly smart on the street. As I mentioned, for me safety is a key item. I had a bar, seats, harnesses and a HANS in mine the day I figured out that I was going FASTER in TT than the eqivalent race classes... And yes, I completely understand the budget thing! I'm currently running around 35HP under my class bogey, but here is my prioritized mod list:

1. Onboard fire system to supplement the hand-held in the car.
2. FIA right and left side containment nets (and I already have a Halo seat!)
3. FIA FT3 fuel cell
4. Cams and a re-tune.

Maybe I'm over the top on the safety thing, but I think you can see where I'm coming from.

Well, thank you for your service!! I didn't know you were in... what branch, if I may ask?

I was in the Army. I am now a contractor doing the same job now.

Dave, just FYI, the reason I told Neema "I do track days, not American Iron" is because the Fighter seats are not FIA approved. You can't compete with them, hence my answer. If I ever competed, I would need an FIA approved seat (Evo in my example). I see no reason to get rid of my current seats before even using them which was what Neema's post sounded like it was implying.

I think I will hook my seat belt uplike the way you were talking about in that pic and try it that way. Pretty easy job from what you said. Appreciate it.

Edit- That is the fighter seat you have pictured.

 

[SoundGuyDave]

I was in the Army. I am now a contractor doing the same job now.

Again, thank you for your service!

Dave, just FYI, the reason I told Neema "I do track days, not American Iron" is because the Fighter seats are not FIA approved. You can't compete with them, hence my answer. If I ever competed, I would need an FIA approved seat (Evo in my example). I see no reason to get rid of my current seats before even using them which was what Neema's post sounded like it was implying.

Gotcha. Maybe I'm a little sensitive about the whole safety issue, but I also see RAMPANT misunderstandings about what it means to drive a car on a race track. Not necessarily from you, but just in general. Also, just FYI, you don't necessarily have to change seats if you do decide to get into competition, but without a current FIA cert, you'd need a back-brace to reinforce the seat. Well, that and a cage, a right-side net, window net, proper harnesses (in date), fire extinguisher/fire system, master "kill" switch, suit, shoes, head/neck restraint, gloves, nomex socks and possibly nomex undies. Oh, and an SA2005 or SA2010 helmet. ;-)

I think I will hook my seat belt uplike the way you were talking about in that pic and try it that way. Pretty easy job from what you said. Appreciate it.

Edit- That is the fighter seat you have pictured.

No worries, brother. Have fun, be safe!

 

[sheizasosay]

Again, thank you for your service!



Gotcha. Maybe I'm a little sensitive about the whole safety issue, but I also see RAMPANT misunderstandings about what it means to drive a car on a race track. Not necessarily from you, but just in general. Also, just FYI, you don't necessarily have to change seats if you do decide to get into competition, but without a current FIA cert, you'd need a back-brace to reinforce the seat. Well, that and a cage, a right-side net, window net, proper harnesses (in date), fire extinguisher/fire system, master "kill" switch, suit, shoes, head/neck restraint, gloves, nomex socks and possibly nomex undies. Oh, and an SA2005 or SA2010 helmet. ;-)



No worries, brother. Have fun, be safe!

Thanks Dave!

Safety definitely needs addressing. And I do appreciate your input. I need to bump that MM Bar up on the priority list.

Edit- Changed "Cage" to "Bar"

 

[neema]

Sheiza sorry if I came off rude. Seat manufacturers SUCK at providing comprehensive mounting instructions or information which leaves me very inquisitive. I'm glad you figured out how to get your seat in and look forward to hearing your feedback.

Dave, you make a good point regarding safety in HPDE vs W2W racing. It seems scary to drive a car on track without being able to run a complete comprehensive safety system, because the possibility of slamming into a wall at speed is definitely exists in HPDE like it would in racing. I think what we all strive to do is at least improve from the factory baseline. And I think no money is wasted on safety, even if it never gets "used"

 

[sheizasosay]

Sheiza sorry if I came off rude. Seat manufacturers SUCK at providing comprehensive mounting instructions or information which leaves me very inquisitive. I'm glad you figured out how to get your seat in and look forward to hearing your feedback.

Dave, you make a good point regarding safety in HPDE vs W2W racing. It seems scary to drive a car on track without being able to run a complete comprehensive safety system, because the possibility of slamming into a wall at speed is definitely exists in HPDE like it would in racing. I think what we all strive to do is at least improve from the factory baseline. And I think no money is wasted on safety, even if it never gets "used"

No need to apologize. You weren't rude at all. You just seemed to indicate that my seat was a "no-go" because it didn't have a sub slot.

A little side note about the Fighter Seat:

When I called and talked to Sparco about their seat, the mounting of it and how that seat will not mount flush on sliders; he was well aware of the problem. He told me that they have been making that seat for 12 years and knowing about the problem. According to him, that is the only seat they have like that. I asked him about torque specs (there are none) and also about the construction of the seat.

 

[Rehagen Racing]

It sounds like you have your seats and harness figured out, but if I may throw a couple of quick things in for others.

Schroth makes an ASM 4pt belt (Anti-SubMarine) that helps keep the driver in the seat and lessen the need for a 5th or 6th lower point. We install them in customer cars that don't want to run a fixed bucket seat (Recaro option cars), or only do occasional track days.

The Sparco Fighter seat is only meant to be bottom mounted like most street cars. It's not intended to be a full race seat, which would use a side mount. It's a VERY nice seat. It's perfect for someone in the situation above that isn't going to be racing the car, but wants all the benefits of a fixed bucket seat. Sparco has 2 seats like this, the Fighter and the Speed (currently Speed2).

If anyone has anymore specific questions, feel free to email us. We have been a Sparco dealer for over 15 years. We also are a stocking WD for Schroth harnesses. (Sales pitch over)