Ford racing intake manifold

[Chris B.]

I'm new to this forum, but I bought my '05 new so I'm excited to have found this site. I've got the FRPP intake, FRPP T/B, Hot rod cams, Kooks longtubes, high flow cats w/H-pipe, UD pullies, CAI + tune. I'm pushing 340 RWHP. I was running 311 without the longtubes & intake. My shop says the cams are bringing my numbers down. The Hotrods are for sound only, which is what I wanted. At the end of the year I'll be modding the engine for the last time. COMP cams and a port & polish. They are promising 370 RWHP give or take.

The hotrod cams aren't bringing your numbers down unless the shop doesn't know how to tune for them.

 

[Davenow]

The hotrod cams aren't bringing your numbers down unless the shop doesn't know how to tune for them.

Not just doesn't know how to tune for them, but straight up sucks at tuning.


That or there is something else going on with the car.

 

[Davenow]

there was way to much testosterone running through this thread

No, there are way too many guys who really don't know that much about cars, but think that they do because they can swap a couple parts on their own lol.

They go by their butt dyno, and what they read on the internet, said by other guys that are just parts swappers (but think they are mechanics) There is literally nothing worse than a book (and the internet counts as that) mechanic when it comes to knowing anything about cars. Look at this thread, we have people saying shit that is just mind boggling its so off. I dont even bother responding to them.


I'm sorry, "I just started installing some parts on my car a few years ago and I read a lot" doesn't make you a tech. MIMIMUM 10 years of doing it for a living, and you can start to call yourself a tech.




*disclaimer*
Although I have a long time of wrenching for a living and have spent 20+ years with a wrench in my hand in one capacity or another, I am far from saying I know it all, and am still learning the specifics of the S197 mustang platform. And even at times have some pretty newb questions.

 

[Davenow]

FYI guys, Modded Mustangs and Fast Fords magazine has an intake manifold shootout this month. Go pick it up. The most definitely did pick up power with the FRPP intake manifold, as well as the C&L manifold. Losing power NOWHERE in the curve.


It was on a car making 360whp on the stock intake manifold, so a just normal bolt on car (not heads/cams) would see different results.



But for anyone to say it wont make at least a little more power up top, again, showing the lack of knowing how things work. Its a short runner manifold. Just from a physics standpoint, with runners like 5" shorter than stock, it would be physically impossible for it not to make more power up top (but entirely possible for it to potentially make less down low)

Short runners, make more high rpm power. Long runners make more lower RPM power. You cant get around that. The FRPP manifold has like 9" runners. The OEM has 14" runners. Do the math.

On the "I gained nothing" Unless you have at least close to "back to back" dyno testing, you absolutely cannot say that. Even on the same dyno, if its a different day, you can make a couple HP more or less (sometimes a great deal more or less) (and no, correction factors dont even come close to eliminating that) You can't feel HP changes of under somewhere around 10whp. Its not physically possible. I don't give a shit who you are and how much you think you know.


As for how much you would gain or lose, its SO much going to depend on your other mods. If your motor isn't consuming enough air for the flow rate to be a restriction, then you will see very little change. Even factoring the short runners, if you aren't pulling enough air, its not going to change much of anything.

 

[BruceH]

I've had the frpp manifold on a na motor. I had zero hp gains and tq loss. In my experience with both the frpp and stock manifolds the stock is the better of the two for na.

My mods at the time were 11:1 compression ratio, cai, and 127400 cams. Gasoline hp was 335 E85 hp was 346.

Edit: The stock manifold flows over 1000 cfm, pretty hard to max that out na.

No, there are way too many guys who really don't know that much about cars, but think that they do because they can swap a couple parts on their own lol.

They go by their butt dyno, and what they read on the internet, said by other guys that are just parts swappers (but think they are mechanics) There is literally nothing worse than a book (and the internet counts as that) mechanic when it comes to knowing anything about cars. Look at this thread, we have people saying shit that is just mind boggling its so off. I dont even bother responding to them.


I'm sorry, "I just started installing some parts on my car a few years ago and I read a lot" doesn't make you a tech. MIMIMUM 10 years of doing it for a living, and you can start to call yourself a tech.




*disclaimer*
Although I have a long time of wrenching for a living and have spent 20+ years with a wrench in my hand in one capacity or another, I am far from saying I know it all, and am still learning the specifics of the S197 mustang platform. And even at times have some pretty newb questions.

FYI guys, Modded Mustangs and Fast Fords magazine has an intake manifold shootout this month. Go pick it up. The most definitely did pick up power with the FRPP intake manifold, as well as the C&L manifold. Losing power NOWHERE in the curve.


It was on a car making 360whp on the stock intake manifold, so a just normal bolt on car (not heads/cams) would see different results.



But for anyone to say it wont make at least a little more power up top, again, showing the lack of knowing how things work. Its a short runner manifold. Just from a physics standpoint, with runners like 5" shorter than stock, it would be physically impossible for it not to make more power up top (but entirely possible for it to potentially make less down low)

Short runners, make more high rpm power. Long runners make more lower RPM power. You cant get around that. The FRPP manifold has like 9" runners. The OEM has 14" runners. Do the math.

On the "I gained nothing" Unless you have at least close to "back to back" dyno testing, you absolutely cannot say that. Even on the same dyno, if its a different day, you can make a couple HP more or less (sometimes a great deal more or less) (and no, correction factors dont even come close to eliminating that) You can't feel HP changes of under somewhere around 10whp. Its not physically possible. I don't give a shit who you are and how much you think you know.


As for how much you would gain or lose, its SO much going to depend on your other mods. If your motor isn't consuming enough air for the flow rate to be a restriction, then you will see very little change. Even factoring the short runners, if you aren't pulling enough air, its not going to change much of anything.

I quoted my experience with the frpp vs stock manifold.

Davenow, what is your experience with it?

 

[ArtQ]

Here's a comparison if anyone is interested.

These are both run on E-Mail tunes from Brenspeed.

Stock shortblock and stock heads
Kooks 1 5/8 headers
Off road X pipe
Magnaflow mufflers
Steeda Underdrive pullies
Stock clutch and flywheel
Powerhouse aluminum drive shaft
FRPP 4.56 gears
TruTrac differential




127300 cams, stock intake w/Deletes, GT500 TB C&L racer CAI :

This is with 127500 cams, FRPP Manifold, FRPP 62mm TB and JLT 110mm CAI:

Supporting mods make a difference, just putting the manifold on a basically stock engine will not help much if at all.

 

[aleborjas]

you have too see average power AND torque on the complete powerband....

i tried a manifold on a modified car N/A and it when slower in the 1/4 mile it lost torque this is not a light car you always have to worry about torque too... thats my opinion
I built the fastest N/A car in my country with poor tracition and i tested almost everything!

 

[nasty281]

IMO this manifold is intended for modified engines. So don't bitch if u don't see gains on a stock engine. U need at least cams and longtubes to see any gains. Also I think most are confused on exactly what HP and torque are. HP and torque are all relative. All this manifold is gonna do is basically shift your peak torque to the higher end giving you more peak HP. And It won't be a huge loss on the streets. If your racing tho u will see no less than 4500-5000 rpms which is probably the range u will see gains

 

[Davenow]

Davenow, what is your experience with it?

Its on my car.

 

[Davenow]

IMO this manifold is intended for modified engines.

I read somewhere, and it was Ford that said it, but the manifold was designed with more modified motors in mind, it even said something about cams and long tubes. It also mentioned something about forced induction. I dont remember the exact wording, but the general message (and like I said, this was from ford) was that it was meant for motors with at least cams and long tubes (meaning that it wouldnt do much of anything without them at a minimum), and idealy for a forced induction motor.

 

[BruceH]

Its on my car.

Did you gain, lose, or no difference?

 

[Davenow]

Did you gain, lose, or no difference?

When I did it, I already had CMDPs and the GT500tb and LTs, but I didnt have cams at the time, so any changes would have been minimal, as without cams, it isnt going to do much of anything.

Now, it being shorter runners, its mechanically impossible to not pick up a little in the 5000+ rpm range. The runners are over 5" shorter than the OEM manifold, and a straighter shot. By its very design it should give up a little down low, and pick up a little up top. However, with a larger plenum and better shape of entry into the runners, low end losses can be negated to a point if not eliminated.

The other thing to consider is that you CANNOT go by "what you feel" to determine if something made a difference or not. Its also physically impossible for a human to feel anything under roughly 10whp. Which means, no, you arent going to feel anything. But not feeling it doesnt mean the power isnt there.


Now I have cams, the car is, comparatively, a beast up top. I havent noticed ANY losses down low, and the car does feel peppier everywhere in the RPM band. Up top past about 4700 or so, is where it really pulls and pulls and pulls.

 

[Davenow]

Muscle Mustangs and Fast Fords magazine just did a shootout, and the FRPP is definitely better by a longshot, than the OEM manifold on an NA car. (provided you have the mods to get it to that point)

They used BBRs shop car, which put down 360something whp on the stock manifold. Let me see if I can find my post where I copied the results...

 

[Davenow]

Found it


here is the breakdown
05 GT full bolt ons, heads/cams STOCK intake manifold (with a heads/cams shop car I would obviously think it had CMDPs done already)
367whp
307wtq

C&L intake manifold
33.44Lbs (!!!!)
375whp
318wtq
--- Gains started at 4200. Had a little more gains than the FRPP up till about 5500 where they were pretty much dead even.

Ford Racing intake manifold
11.30lbs
375whp
318wtq
--- Actually showed small gains from 2500 to 3500. Then no gains/losses till the gains started at about 4100. Gains until about 5500 were a COUPLE hp/ftlbs lower than the C&L, then they were identical, with both manifolds netting the same peak numbers, and power at redline.

JPC intake manifold
22.30lbs
381whp
316wtq
--- LOSSES of hp/tq from about 3000 to 4000. From 4500-5000 there was a weird big bump in power, with both HP and TQ jumping like 10-12hp/tq, then settling back down to STOCK manifold power levels till 6000rpm, where it gained about 17hp/18tq over the stock manifold.

So there you go. If you have a setup that can spin 7000rpm, and you are in situations where you are staying above 6000rpm, the JPC is the best choice. But again, its heavy. For an NA street car its a toss up between the C&L and the FRPP, but with the C&L weighing in at close to 3 times as much as the FRPP, and at LEAST double what the OEM manifold weighs, with its tiny bump over the curve, I would stick with the FRPP manifold.

 

[BruceH]

When I did it, I already had CMDPs and the GT500tb and LTs, but I didnt have cams at the time, so any changes would have been minimal, as without cams, it isnt going to do much of anything.

Now, it being shorter runners, its mechanically impossible to not pick up a little in the 5000+ rpm range. The runners are over 5" shorter than the OEM manifold, and a straighter shot. By its very design it should give up a little down low, and pick up a little up top. However, with a larger plenum and better shape of entry into the runners, low end losses can be negated to a point if not eliminated.

The other thing to consider is that you CANNOT go by "what you feel" to determine if something made a difference or not. Its also physically impossible for a human to feel anything under roughly 10whp. Which means, no, you arent going to feel anything. But not feeling it doesnt mean the power isnt there.


Now I have cams, the car is, comparatively, a beast up top. I havent noticed ANY losses down low, and the car does feel peppier everywhere in the RPM band. Up top past about 4700 or so, is where it really pulls and pulls and pulls.

The only change I had was less torque. My mods were flat top pistons, decked block, 127400 cams.

I've pretty much given up on magazine tests. I think they are just another advertisement for the shop doing the "tests". But that's just me, always looking for the conspiracy.

 

[Davenow]

I've pretty much given up on magazine tests. I think they are just another advertisement for the shop doing the "tests". But that's just me, always looking for the conspiracy.

I would agree but

They werent advertising anyone. They mentioned that it was BBRs shop car, only in passing, in one small place, and never again anywhere in the article. And they did note positives and negatives on all the manifolds, with the C&L and FRPP being so close as to be a tough call.