Can Someone Explain This??? Sigh (Valve Train)

[AutoXRacer]

I am still on my second oil change on this new motor and this is what happens with roughly 4,000 miles on the new motor... sigh

Driver side:

Passenger side:

Yes, that cylinder 1 most forward intake follower roller is seized!!!

Cylinder # 2 and 4 most forward intake followers are chard (major heat) the roller bearings are trashed!!

Cylinder #4

Anyone have any ideas?

I was running a mixture of 5W-40 (speced by my engine builder) and 15W-50 (my own doing in order to try to decrease oil consumption).

My motor burns oil, but its not accumulated in the catch cans (I only get clear water) and its not smoke out the tail pipe. The builder used low tension rings. I consume 1 quart per roughly 1,000 miles.

I've had it with this motor... Third build on this particular motor. First two times were self inflicted (1st bad injectors/crap break-in tune/bad break-in instructions) and the 2nd failure was due to spark plugs incorrectly gap, experienced spark blow out on the track and blew a spark plug to oblivion (trashed cylinder #7.

 

[weather man]

It's crazy, some guys spin the stock followers to 8,000 rpm, no issues. Then you get the steady trickle of guys like you that post up failures like yours.

Ford Racing developed the new follower with better oiling for a reason, even if they are not released yet.

What cams?

 

[AutoXRacer]

It's crazy, some guys spin the stock followers to 8,000 rpm, no issues. Then you get the steady trickle of guys like you that post up failures like yours.

Ford Racing developed the new follower with better oiling for a reason, even if they are not released yet.

What cams?

Yeah, my typical driving is 1,500 to 2,700 rpm. Lol

I got Comp Cams....oh boy...I don't remember.lol
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Had to look at my cam card. Lol
Well thats no help, the 450s blower cams.

 

[JeremyH]

Bad luck? Were they all new followers? If so, my guess would be oil galley or passage blockage up there looks like it was starved and overheated and seized thicker 15 for cold weight is also too thick imo which wouldn't help since the heads are the last thing to get oil on cold startup. Also the oil has to be going somewhere, an external leak, through the motor or into the coolant if its not in a catch can, what does the inside of the cylinders look like?

You check the torque all on the cam cap bolts? That front cam cap for cyl 4 that has the oil passage for the cam journal looks off to me at the seat onto the head.

 

[AutoXRacer]

Bad luck? Were they all new followers? If so, my guess would be oil galley or passage blockage up there looks like it was starved and overheated and seized thicker 15 for cold weight is also too thick imo which wouldn't help since the heads are the last thing to get oil on cold startup. Also the oil has to be going somewhere, an external leak, through the motor or into the coolant if its not in a catch can, what does the inside of the cylinders look like?

Not sure what the inside of the cylinders look like. I could shove my borescope in there and take a look.

My engine builder claims the oil consumption is due to low tension rings...its a sore subject...anyway. I have not told him how much exactly the motor is consuming since this is only the 2nd oil change and I still got 1,800 to go before I dump it for my next one. Although, I'll be dumping this one ASAP and going back to 5W-30/5W-40...

I'm thinking maybe I caused it mixing 4 quarts of 5W-40 and 4 quarts of 15W-50?

These were new parts (followers and lifters). They may have an accumulated maybe 10,000 miles...they were in my previous build that only ran for roughly 5,000 miles maybe?

How would I check the oil galleys? ...without pulling the motor/heads?
When I pulled the lifters, the bore was full of oil. Not one was dry. And all the lifters except one were collapsed and I could not plunge them. One of them I could plunge.

Yep, all cam caps were torqued by me. I followed the Ford service manual, and torqued them to 10Nm (89in/lbs) in the correct sequence.

 

[JeremyH]

Not sure what the inside of the cylinders look like. I could shove my borescope in there and take a look.

My engine builder claims the oil consumption is due to low tension rings...its a sore subject...anyway. I have not told him how much exactly the motor is consuming since this is only the 2nd oil change and I still got 1,800 to go before I dump it for my next one. Although, I'll be dumping this one ASAP and going back to 5W-30/5W-40...

I'm thinking maybe I caused it mixing 4 quarts of 5W-40 and 4 quarts of 15W-50?

These were new parts (followers and lifters). They may have an accumulated maybe 10,000 miles...they were in my previous build that only ran for roughly 5,000 miles maybe?

How would I check the oil galleys? ...without pulling the motor/heads?
When I pulled the lifters, the bore was full of oil. Not one was dry. And all the lifters except one were collapsed and I could not plunge them. One of them I could plunge..

Yeah borescope through the spark plug holes is a good idea just to check things out. Surprised the exhaust wouldn't have any smoke for that much oil consumption, do you run cats? Run a finger on the inside of the tail pipe and see if you get some carbon sludge.

Most I was comfortable running was 10w40, ran that for a year or so no ill effects, did so to help combat the turbo seals leaking oil. Went back to 5w20 when I switched to oil-less turbos.

Not sure on the galleys, were they previous used or worked on heads? Some debris or casting defect in a passage etc. Just throwing out ideas. As for checking, no real pointers on where or how to look. I do know that first cap has a large galley as that's the thrust cap and where the cam journal rides so that along with the phaser gets oil first and a lot of it when running. I have also heard of the oil screens on the phaser getting clogged with debris, not sure if that applies to your setup or not. I would say oil starvation is the reason for the excessive heat and seized followers for sure though.


What kind of cold start and warm idle oil pressure did you see? I know when I ran the 10w40 I would see 90-100psi oil pressure on cold starts and as you know, as pressure goes up flow goes down. And it would run around run 50-60psi at warm idle.

Now that I'm back on 5w20 oil, I only see 60-70psi tops on cold starts and 30-40psi warm idle.

Yep, all cam caps were torqued by me. I followed the Ford service manual, and torqued them to 10Nm (89ft/lbs) in the correct sequence.

I ask about the cam caps as I have seen them come loose a few times 89 in/lbs isn't a lot and seen it happen twice on caps that were double and triple checked torqued. Are they all the original caps for those heads, ie honed to their location?

 

[JeremyH]

This is what looks odd to me at first glance, of the 6-7 cam swaps I have done over the years I don't remember seeing this kind of gap when the caps were properly seated and torqued I only remember there being a hair line where the cap meets back up to the head. It sticks out to me as I recall being very careful to be sure all the caps went back in the right way and in the right spot and were fully seated to the heads as I have never used the spring compression tool when doing it so the cam was being compressed on by the caps, so I was more paranoid about it. Could be wrong though, I do see that you marked them which is a great idea, just trying to throw out more ideas.

 

[AutoXRacer]

Not sure on the galleys, were they previous used or worked on heads?

I ask about the cam caps as I have seen them come loose a few times 89 in/lbs isn't a lot and seen it happen twice on caps that were double and triple checked torqued. Are they all the original caps for those heads, ie honed to their location?

No, these were new heads on my 2nd build. They were checked by the engine builder since I did blow up a sparkplug. Everything checked out OK. These are Ford Racing CNC and ported heads (the ones in the middle).

Would you suggest using some blue locktite when I'm ready to torque them up? Wouldn't the locktite change the final torque on the bolts?

Regarding the picture, I should have paid more attention before removing the caps... DAMN.
But I did look at pictures of when I put it all together and the caps were flush with the cylinder heads...just a hairline crack.
Hmm... Each bolt was tight though when I was removing them. Just not sure what the torque was.

 

[ghunt81]

This is what looks odd to me at first glance, of the 6-7 cam swaps I have done over the years I don't remember seeing this kind of gap when the caps were properly seated and torqued I only remember there being a hair line where the cap meets back up to the head. It sticks out to me as I recall being very careful to be sure all the caps went back in the right way and in the right spot and were fully seated to the heads as I have never used the spring compression tool when doing it so the cam was being compressed on by the caps, so I was more paranoid about it. Could be wrong though, I do see that you marked them which is a great idea, just trying to throw out more ideas.

That's just a slight misalignment of the caps in relation to the towers, it's not a gap. Most of mine were like that, when you set the caps on the towers they don't always line up exactly flush on the front and back edges.

Also I would be afraid of using Loctite on the cam cap bolts. Don't they thread into aluminum? I never checked, but I'd be worried something would strip when it came time to take them off again if you used Loctite. If none of the cap bolts are loose now then I doubt that's your issue anyway.

 

[AutoXRacer]

I am thinking to just replace all the followers and lifters and just buttoning everything back up. I know the cam lobes, especially Cyl #1 (where the roller seized) should be repaired and polished up.

But will any more damage occur if I just run the cam like that? I know its not ideal, but I bet I will not notice a performance decrease.

Let me know what you think... I am going to dump the oil and go back to 5W-40. Maybe do a 5W-30/5W-40 mix.

 

[eighty6gt]

Does this car have the phaser system still installed?

There was a post/photo of something internal to the valves on the front of the head where gasket material was rotting and becoming dislodged, the type of stuff that would completely plug oil passages.

 

[ghunt81]

Something I forgot to ask earlier, were these cams brand new when you installed them?

If so were they checked for metal shavings/chips in the end where the phaser attaches? I've heard of comp cams coming out of the box with machining chips in the end, and my Bullet cams came out of the box like that too (and I never checked them). I don't know if metal chips could block an oil passage but some of them looked almost big enough that it could be possible. I found a bunch of the chips stuck against the screens on my VCT solenoids.

 

[AutoXRacer]

Does this car have the phaser system still installed?

There was a post/photo of something internal to the valves on the front of the head where gasket material was rotting and becoming dislodged, the type of stuff that would completely plug oil passages.

No, VCT is disabled. I am using V10 blocking plates. No solenoids and lockouts in the phasers.

Something I forgot to ask earlier, were these cams brand new when you installed them?

If so were they checked for metal shavings/chips in the end where the phaser attaches? I've heard of comp cams coming out of the box with machining chips in the end, and my Bullet cams came out of the box like that too (and I never checked them). I don't know if metal chips could block an oil passage but some of them looked almost big enough that it could be possible. I found a bunch of the chips stuck against the screens on my VCT solenoids.

Oh snap!! Yes, these were new on my 2nd build. The machine shop inspected them; but not sure if they inspected for chips in the oil passages.

 

[swflastang05]

Damn Gerald, haven't heard from you in a while then this! I doubt mixing oils would cause that, I agree it does look like oil starvation. I would hate to see you replace the followers, put it back together and it happen again because the root cause wasn't addressed. Did you cut open the oil filter and was there anything inside? Also a quart of oil per 1000 miles is nuts IMHO, I don't care what rings are in there. I'm sure you primed the motor with the valve covers off before you started it this time and checked that all followers had proper oil flow right? What about if you primed it now? Might confirm if there's a starvation issue there. Good luck man,

 

[weather man]

I would get a couple fine grits in a strap and work the cams over by hand, if you don't want to send them out for repair.

 

[AutoXRacer]

Damn, you guys are making me doubt myself now about slapping it back together...

You really don't think the 15W-50 did this? I did mix it with 0W-40.

5 quarts of 0W-40 and 3 quarts of 15W-50. Then added a full quart of 15W-50 as it burnt off progressively.

I was hoping I did this with the 15W-50. Uh...

Damn Gerald, haven't heard from you in a while then this! I doubt mixing oils would cause that, I agree it does look like oil starvation. I would hate to see you replace the followers, put it back together and it happen again because the root cause wasn't addressed. Did you cut open the oil filter and was there anything inside? Also a quart of oil per 1000 miles is nuts IMHO, I don't care what rings are in there. I'm sure you primed the motor with the valve covers off before you started it this time and checked that all followers had proper oil flow right? What about if you primed it now? Might confirm if there's a starvation issue there. Good luck man,

So you think I should prime the motor with the lifters off and check for lubrication throughout the heads?
I did prime the motor when I dropped it in before the initial startup...but the valve covers were on (motor fully assembled).

I would get a couple fine grits in a strap and work the cams over by hand, if you don't want to send them out for repair.

And get some 2,000 grit paper and sand the 2 lobes that had the failed rollers? The bearing (journal) surfaces looked great!! So you are referring to the lobes?

 

[weather man]

And get some 2,000 grit paper and sand the 2 lobes that had the failed rollers? The bearing (journal) surfaces looked great!! So you are referring to the lobes?

Yes. I would use a band and progressively go over it.

 

[Pentalab]

A) Why does it consume 1 qt per 1000 miles ?? That's 5 qts in 5 K miles !

B) where is this 1 qt going to, if it doesn't collect in the catch can...or exhaust ? It has to be going some where. You don't see oil leaking anywhere, so the mystery missing oil gets even more baffling.

C) have you got cats installed ? If so, and oil ended up in the exhaust, it could damage cats, with 1 qt every 1 k miles.

There is some fundamental root cause you are missing somewhere. Run it past some eng type..and see if they can come up with a test to evaluate the oil flow system as a whole.

Oil isn't getting to where it should. Parts are not being lubricated. Oil consumption is nuts. What are you using for an oil filter ?

 

[Steve@Tasca]

Yep, all cam caps were torqued by me. I followed the Ford service manual, and torqued them to 10Nm (89ft/lbs) in the correct sequence.

You did mean 10nm (89 in/lbs) right? Must have, 89ft/lbs would have probably broken the bolts or pulled the threads out of the heads.

-Steve

 

[tigerhonaker]

Gerald,

I'm no engine builder nor do I claim to know what's going on with your several different issues.

But ..............

I don't mind sharing a few thoughts with you if that was my engine.

I would be finding out No-Matter who or what Shop I had to get with why the heck it's going through 1-Quart of oil every 1K miles.

That's just simply ridiculous these days ............

And there is No-Way I would put it back together unless someone found out why those Cam Followers looked BURNED-UP and Seized.

There seems to me to be Multiple issues buddy and I'm just saying if it was mine I would be getting some professional to look into it.

And to have to mix different weight oils to try to get around it going through a quart every 1K miles is crazy.

That's a very expensive engine to run if you were a person that put a lot of miles on it.

Bottom-Line is for what it's worth buddy there are just to many things that are out of whack and you need to find out what the heck is really going on.

And like I said if it were mine I would be doing exactly what I have said in this post, get some professional help !!!

Terry