Mach E no start concnern

Pentalab

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I fail to see the logic of owning a hybrid or ev vehicle. May spend less on gasoline, but ultimately costs more to operate, if you keep it long enough to need a battery replacement.

With either an EV or a hybrid, the batteries are toast after 7 years, 8 tops. On most of the EV's, they say not to charge em > 80%...and don't let em go < 20%. The only time they get charged to 100% is if going on long trips. The batteries on the Nissan leaf are air cooled. The manual sez after charging, not to drive the vehicle for 1.5 hrs. The 25kw and 50 kw fast chargers sound wonderful on paper, but are extremely hard on the batteries. As of 2 weeks ago, apparently there is only 8.5 years of lithium left, down from 135 years 4 years ago.

Toss in daytime running lights, stereo/ tv gear, electronics, AC in summer, heating in winter, rear window and side mirror defoggers, heated seats, cooled seats, etc, etc, and actual range is probably going to be less than stated.

Then you have the annual licensing fee, which is an eye opener. The amount of tax revenue, road improvement tax, carbon taxes, transit levies, etc, etc, that make up a big chunk of the price of a gallon of gasoline are lost with increased EV usage, and all that lost tax revenue has to come from somewhere.

The current freebie gov subsidies on EV cars will come to an end soon, then what? That just makes the cost of the EV car even higher, and higher still, once the EV owner gags with the increased annual licensing fee.
 

stkjock

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IMO, the key to long term EV success with come from improvements in battery technology, longer life, lower cost.
 

Juice

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IMO, the key to long term EV success with come from improvements in battery technology, longer life, lower cost.
Hydrogen fuel cell EV. No batteries to worry about.
 

Gabe

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Now we are waiting for a pressure test tool to verify the unit is sealed properly and not leaking. It is a liquid cooled battery assembly.

Your local Harbor Freight doesn't have one?
 

Jack F

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With either an EV or a hybrid, the batteries are toast after 7 years, 8 tops.

No. Average life of a hybrid battery is ~10 years. I speak from experience in real life, not Facebook. Replacement batteries are not outrageously expensive, as most all are remanufactured. You know, just like combustion engines and transmissions are. The infrastructure for pure electric vehicles will grow organically and in symmetry with their adoption rate. IOW-dont't worry about it people!
 

86GT351

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No. Average life of a hybrid battery is ~10 years. I speak from experience in real life, not Facebook. Replacement batteries are not outrageously expensive, as most all are remanufactured. You know, just like combustion engines and transmissions are. The infrastructure for pure electric vehicles will grow organically and in symmetry with their adoption rate. IOW-dont't worry about it people!

I don't think anyone is worrying about it. People are expressing there opinions on the matter.
 

Pentalab

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Hydrogen fuel cell EV. No batteries to worry about.
Only 1 way to make hydrogen gas.... run electric current through distilled water..... good luck with that.
We had a few city busses that ran on hydrogen. They were TRIPLE the cost of a conventional diesel buss. They eventually cut em up for scrap. The hydrogen had to be shipped via rail, from quebec..to BC.
 

Pentalab

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No. Average life of a hybrid battery is ~10 years. I speak from experience in real life, not Facebook. Replacement batteries are not outrageously expensive, as most all are remanufactured. You know, just like combustion engines and transmissions are. The infrastructure for pure electric vehicles will grow organically and in symmetry with their adoption rate. IOW-dont't worry about it people!

Which hybrid ? All my neighbours own a prius..and none of em are getting 10 yrs from the batteries. And the reman batteries came with a 1 yr warranty. New batteries were $3200 + the core, and came with a 10 yr warranty. Every taxi cab in town is a Prius.

I worked out the math real carefully and it was 115,000 kms before I would start...'saving money'. That's 12 years for my usage! And the batteries are fucked well before that. The taxi cab folks put on 110,000-120,000 kms per year, so start..'saving money' after 1 year. But they also change the oil in the engine every 3-4 weeks too.

Back in 2011 when I bought my Fusion for $24K, fully loaded, the Hybrid version was $40K...and 12% tax on top of either figure. $44,800.00 - $26,880.00 = $17,920.00 I can buy one helluva lot of gasoline for $17,920.00 IF I had bought the hybrid version back in Jan 2011, it would be another 2 years till I started...'saving money'. The car is worth dick after 12 years. Cars that have semi fried batteries are worth less than dick. Plug in hybrids cost even more, weigh more, and all of em have extremely limited range on the battery pack.... like 60-70 km ( 40-45 miles)..when run in 100% electric mode.

Several of the dealers here in town have the usual 6-10 used 100% EV cars for sale. They can't give em away. Folks buy em, then soon find out the limitations, then quickly trade em in..at a huge loss.

"The infrastructure for pure electric vehicles will grow organically and in symmetry with their adoption rate". Dream on, pure fantasy. They would have to TRIPLE the capacity of the power grid to even get started....and none of that is coming from solar or wind. Nukes and / or hydro electric /coal/natural gas. Every residential street would have to be upgraded. Typ it's 9 homes to one 50 kva xfmr. Figure 2 x vehicles per home. That's 18 vehicles, all sucking 7-10 kva all night long. That's 126 - 180 kva....not including what the 9 x homes draw for everything else. It would be the biggest upgrade..ever. Battery cost, size, weight, longevity, etc, doesn't even factor into the above.
 

07gts197

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Yes and the planet has gone thru several mass extinctions too when volcanoes emitted millions of tons of CO2 into the air. CO2 that we are digging up and releasing again now at alarming rates. Don't get me wrong I love my Mustang but I know it is among the last of the breed. IC engines waste 70% of their energy as heat. We cannot afford to waste that much energy if we are going to produce it ourselves.

Since we started arguing about climate change I thought I’d chip in. Co2 is not the reason climate change happens after a large volcanic event, actually it’s sulfur and ash that change the albeido of the atmosphere causing more radiation to be reflected back into space. This causes a global cooling affect. Perhaps over a period of time the build up of greenhouse gasses could offset that. The KT extinction event is a good example of this.

Also on the subject, I hate that the epa is implementing stronger restrictions on cars. Industry is a bigger polluter, I guess it’s harder to go after big industry though. Not to mention that CFC emission depletes the ozone and methane is a more potent greenhouse gas than co2 is.


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Since we started arguing about climate change I thought I’d chip in. Co2 is not the reason climate change happens after a large volcanic event, actually it’s sulfur and ash that change the albeido of the atmosphere causing more radiation to be reflected back into space. This causes a global cooling affect. Perhaps over a period of time the build up of greenhouse gasses could offset that. The KT extinction event is a good example of this.

Also on the subject, I hate that the epa is implementing stronger restrictions on cars. Industry is a bigger polluter, I guess it’s harder to go after big industry though. Not to mention that CFC emission depletes the ozone and methane is a more potent greenhouse gas than co2 is.


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The damage from a volcanoes CO2 emissions lasts far longer than the soot and has been the cause of mass extinctions that took millions of years to recover from.
This why we must switch to electric vehicles. IC engines have the largest share of greenhouse gas emissions. Not to mention they waste 70% of the energy produced as heat. BTW Methane degrades after 9 years in the atmosphere, CO2 lasts forever until it is removed by plants which can take millions of years.
  • Transportation (29 percent of 2019 greenhouse gas emissions) – The transportation sector generates the largest share of greenhouse gas emissions. Greenhouse gas emissions from transportation primarily come from burning fossil fuel for our cars, trucks, ships, trains, and planes. Over 90 percent of the fuel used for transportation is petroleum based, which includes primarily gasoline and diesel.
  • https://www.epa.gov/ghgemissions/sources-greenhouse-gas-emissions
EVs have several advantages over conventional vehicles: Energy efficient. EVs convert over 77% of the electrical energy from the grid to power at the wheels. Conventional gasoline vehicles only convert about 12%–30% of the energy stored in gasoline to power at the wheels.

https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/evtech.shtml#:~:text=EVs have several advantages over,to power at the wheels.
 
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07gts197

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This why we must switch to electric vehicles. IC engines have the largest share of greenhouse gas emissions. Not to mention they waste 70% of the energy produced as heat.
  • Transportation (29 percent of 2019 greenhouse gas emissions) – The transportation sector generates the largest share of greenhouse gas emissions. Greenhouse gas emissions from transportation primarily come from burning fossil fuel for our cars, trucks, ships, trains, and planes. Over 90 percent of the fuel used for transportation is petroleum based, which includes primarily gasoline and diesel.
  • https://www.epa.gov/ghgemissions/sources-greenhouse-gas-emissions
EVs have several advantages over conventional vehicles: Energy efficient. EVs convert over 77% of the electrical energy from the grid to power at the wheels. Conventional gasoline vehicles only convert about 12%–30% of the energy stored in gasoline to power at the wheels.

https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/evt...everal advantages over,to power at the wheels.

And how much of that is personal vs commercial vehicles? About half, so say 14 percent of all greenhouse gas emissions. It would be much easier to control emissions on the commercial sector, such as trains, planes and ships.

Others have said it above, electric vehicles are not clean. They still rely on the power grid which is powered by fossil fuels. They put a bigger strain on the power grid. Not to mention the other down sides like, increased cost, like others have already said.


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RED09GT

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Electricity production is still the #1 greenhouse gas producer at 37%.
All the atmospheric scientists I studied under at UBC have been retired and replaced by those more willing to chase funding for studies rather than those who are scientists to actually determine the truth.
Oh well, I make a living off looking for the minerals that are in demand for the electric car market and let me say that the supply will not be enough to meet the artificially created demand. The government targets of 2030 or 2040 having zero emissions only vehicles is impossible unless governments start fast tracking mining development projects-and the potential for environmental damage from these projects is very concerning. Nickel mining is as nasty as it gets as far as groundwater is concerned.
After the "climate crisis" is exposed as a fraud, the "water crisis" will be a real thing.
 
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And how much of that is personal vs commercial vehicles? About half, so say 14 percent of all greenhouse gas emissions. It would be much easier to control emissions on the commercial sector, such as trains, planes and ships.

Others have said it above, electric vehicles are not clean. They still rely on the power grid which is powered by fossil fuels. They put a bigger strain on the power grid. Not to mention the other down sides like, increased cost, like others have already said.


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Electric vehicles are massively more efficient in their use of energy no matter where it comes from. 77% of the power taken from the grid goes to moving the wheels VS 15 to 18% in IC vehicles. That is what makes them "cleaner". They are far cheaper to manufacture and last far longer that IC vehicles. Batteries are still a large expense but they are getting cheaper every year.
 

86GT351

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A modern Mood Lamp to add to the conversation. (Technology)

SFL13FibreOpticLampICEBlue.jpg
 

eighty6gt

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The replacement costs of battery packs today have absolutely nothing to do with the replacement costs for battery packs in 8 years

along with about 50 other factors here.
 

07gts197

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Electric vehicles are massively more efficient in their use of energy no matter where it comes from. 77% of the power taken from the grid goes to moving the wheels VS 15 to 18% in IC vehicles. That is what makes them "cleaner". They are far cheaper to manufacture and last far longer that IC vehicles. Batteries are still a large expense but they are getting cheaper every year.

I’m still lost, what makes them cheaper to manufacture? As far as cleaner, I don’t know to be honest. Off the top of my head I can tell you that it just shifts the greenhouse gas emissions from the vehicle to the power grid.

Regardless, as said above the government is living in a bubble. There isn’t enough demand for the production of electric vehicles to curb global warming. And think of all the people in the oil industry that would be impacted by the lessening demand. There would be millions out of work in the course of a decade or so if the government has its way. And the shortage of supplies to build modern batteries is another issue. Maybe nuclear power is the way to go.


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Juice

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What was the first thing you learned in accounting? (if you took it, and if I recall)
There is no such thing as a free lunch...
Applies to more than just accounting. ;)
 
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I’m still lost, what makes them cheaper to manufacture? As far as cleaner, I don’t know to be honest. Off the top of my head I can tell you that it just shifts the greenhouse gas emissions from the vehicle to the power grid.

Regardless, as said above the government is living in a bubble. There isn’t enough demand for the production of electric vehicles to curb global warming. And think of all the people in the oil industry that would be impacted by the lessening demand. There would be millions out of work in the course of a decade or so if the government has its way. And the shortage of supplies to build modern batteries is another issue. Maybe nuclear power is the way to go.


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Electric cars have less parts than conventional cars. The motors are much simpler and there is no transmission. The cleaner part comes from their efficiency. Even if the electricity is made from Natural gas the energy used per mile traveled is so much less there is a big reduction in CO2 emissions per mile. We will need to wean ourselves off fossil energy eventually so why not do before we change our climate drastically? Ford is selling more Mach E's than conventional Mustangs now so demand cannot be a problem either.

Yes, Electric Cars Are Cleaner, Even When The Power Comes From Coal

https://www.forbes.com/sites/mikesc...en-the-power-comes-from-coal/?sh=423f6fae2320
 

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